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LeMond I

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Dr. Maserati said:
What?

Berzin - did you add the highlighted to someones post?

LeMond has admitted that he took cocaine with Fignon at a race in Colombia.
While IMO it has nothing to do with PEDs it does not mean it should not be discussed and it should not require any intervention from a mod.

Thank you, Dr. Maserati for sending me the appropriate and correct information on this matter. I was not aware of the incident where Lemond confesses to using cocaine on a recreational level.

The link I was given did not allow for the whole interview to be read, so I was still unclear about it until now.
 
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Berzin said:
Thank you, Dr. Maserati for sending me the appropriate and correct information on this matter. I was not aware of the incident where Lemond confesses to using cocaine on a recreational level.

The link I was given did not allow for the whole interview to be read, so I was still unclear about it until now.

He partied well. Having witnessed attempts by others to use it as a PED it confirms what many know: it is a very expensive distraction that gives one the illusion of well being.
It costs more to maintain the illusion each time it's used, too.
 
Great list, thanks so much. The first link, back in the early phases of his career, really opened my eyes. I did not realize that the American media, at least some in the media, appreciated the magnitude of Lemond’s talent before he had won a TDF.

But one question and one comment. The question: I recall an interview with Lemond in which he said that if EPO had appeared when he was younger, he would have been very tempted to take it—that had he not been near the end of his career, he might have ended up doping. A remarkably honest statement, though it seems to conflict with other things he has said about doping, e.g., that he needed to be clean as a way of maintaining a "purity" that had been compromised by his sexual abuse. I haven’t been able to find this interview again. Does anyone know where this remark appears?

The comment is to this statement that appears in the link provided by Mas:

My wattage, relative to VO2 Max...a VO2 Max of 92 or 93 in a fully recovered way...I think I was capable of producing 450 to 460 watts. The truth is, even at the Tour de France, my Tour de France climb times up l'Alpe d'Huez yielded a wattage of around 380 and 390. That was the historic norm for Hinault and myself. You've got times going back many, many years. But what was learned recently, in the last 5 years, was that when you start the Tour de France, you start with a normal hematocrit of, say, 45 percent. By the time you finish, it's probably down 10 or 15 percent. Which means my VO2 Max dropped 10 or 15 percent. So that's why I was never producing the same wattage.

We now know this is not entirely correct. While HT does drop as GL says, total Hb does not, and though this is counter-intuitive, studies suggest that VO2 Max does not drop. In fact, some studies in which the blood of subjects has been diluted to lower HT have found that VO2 Max actually increases, perhaps because the less viscous blood flows more easily. Such studies have not been carried out in elite riders, but at the least we can conclude there is no evidence that lowered HT in a GT would result in a lower VO2 Max.

How, then, can one account for the discrepancy between GL’s VO2 Max and wattage? Other factors, such as efficiency, might have lowered GL's wattage. If that were the case, even fresh in a laboratory, he would not be able to put out the high wattages seemingly predicted by his VO2 Max. However, I'm guessing that much of the discrepancy did result from a decline during a GT. Not a decline in HT, but a decline in the strength of his muscles, so they were unable to make full use of all that oxygen. This would indeed result in a lower VO2 Max, not because the blood was unable to carry the usual amount of oxygen, but because the muscles could not process this level of oxygen.

As Lemond further notes, his wattage levels were generally lower those of the best riders who followed him in the nineties and beyond, and this is taken by many of us as evidence of doping. Part of the effect of doping would be to stabilize HT in a GT, which means actually increasing Hb. But another critical factor would be accelerating recovery stage to stage, so the muscles could process all that additional oxygen. AFAIK, no one has ever measured VO2 Max in riders known to be blood doping at the time, but Lemond’s strong implication, which I tend agree with, is that there would be levels higher than any he attained.

In addition, as has been documented in studies of EPO, time to exhaustion at submaximal levels of oxygen intake is greatly increased. While this doesn't account for the much greater wattage levels in doped riders, it would help explain how riders with a possibly lower VO2 Max that GL, even doped, could beat him in the early nineties. It could also contribute to the greater overall average speeds in the TDF, since most of any Tour is ridden at submaximal levels. And it would explain how souped up domestiques, such as those at USPS back in the day, and possibly at Sky today, could tire out elite climbers even if the latter had higher VO2 Max values.
 
Perhaps the discrepancy between LeMond's VO2 Max and his observed power output is partially caused by an erroneous value for VO2 Max. It seems to me that VO2 Max tests have varying amounts of error, depending on the type of equipment. Also, people may remember the value incorrectly, or have derived a value using an incorrect assumption.

What is the original source for "92 or 93"? Was this value obtained on more than one test? Do we have established values for Hinault, who was performing at a very similar level in the '85 and '86 TdFs?
 
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KingsMountain said:
Perhaps the discrepancy between LeMond's VO2 Max and his observed power output is partially caused by an erroneous value for VO2 Max. It seems to me that VO2 Max tests have varying amounts of error, depending on the type of equipment. Also, people may remember the value incorrectly, or have derived a value using an incorrect assumption.

What is the original source for "92 or 93"? Was this value obtained on more than one test? Do we have established values for Hinault, who was performing at a very similar level in the '85 and '86 TdFs?

Hinault performing at a very similar level? In 85 he had to have Lemond held back to win his 5th and in 86 he only led Lemond by dint of a puncture in the first TT.
 
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ultimobici said:
Hinault performing at a very similar level? In 85 he had to have Lemond held back to win his 5th and in 86 he only led Lemond by dint of a puncture in the first TT.

In 85 he was definitely not as weak as you imply, you forget Hinault's terrible crash.

And 86... well, perhaps I'm too much of a Hinault fan, but I think it's absolutely okay to say they performed at a similar level. In fact if you consider that Greg was as was his forte wheelsucking to his first win, whereas Bernard attacked Kamikaze style squandering his strengths you can wonder how it would have ended if Bernard would have ridden more with his head instead of his heart ;)
 
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Ryo Hazuki said:
boogerd just said on eurosport that lemond was always rumored with riders to have actually brought epo into the peloton, what an idiot :eek:

Gert Jacobs said he used EPO in 1988, but it was not on the blacklist, so perfectly clean.:D
 
timbo25 said:
Gert Jacobs said he used EPO in 1988, but it was not on the blacklist, so perfectly clean.:D

An EPO expert I befriend (pharma student in the 80's studying EPO before it passed trials) told me he suspected the 1988 Calgary Olympics speed skating results by the Dutch. Jacobs likely wasn't the first Dutchman to use EPO.
 
Cloxxki said:
An EPO expert I befriend (pharma student in the 80's studying EPO before it passed trials) told me he suspected the 1988 Calgary Olympics speed skating results by the Dutch. Jacobs likely wasn't the first Dutchman to use EPO.

This is going way back before the Internet, but my recollection is there were a number of young Dutch cyclists dying of heart attacks in the later 1980's. Hein was silent on the matter.
 
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Cloxxki said:
An EPO expert I befriend (pharma student in the 80's studying EPO before it passed trials) told me he suspected the 1988 Calgary Olympics speed skating results by the Dutch. Jacobs likely wasn't the first Dutchman to use EPO.

off course, we had to beat that East German government doping program:D
 
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DirtyWorks said:
This is going way back before the Internet, but my recollection is there were a number of young Dutch cyclists dying of heart attacks in the later 1980's. Hein was silent on the matter.

lol @ thinking epo killed athletes. absolutely zero proove for that
 
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Ryo Hazuki said:
lol @ thinking epo killed athletes. absolutely zero proove for that

Zero proof? Certainly there was evidence of an increase in apparently healthy elite Dutch cyclists dying of heart attacks in the early 90s. At the time it was a mystery. Now not so.
 
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Goldberger said:
So how does the Froome and Sky haters respond to the cleanest man alive LeMond believing in and defending Froome? Seems kind off odd to me...

Keep in mind that I am VERY sceptical of Froome and Sky.

He got it wrong on Armstrong before in 1999.

No one is perfect, unless of course if you ride or work for Sky until they tell you you are not and let you go.:D
 
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Ryo Hazuki said:
lol @ thinking epo killed athletes. absolutely zero proove for that

Proof. If you are going to post on an English based forum for as long as you get a spell check.

EPO did kill athletes, it was the reason a 50% HCT level was introduced. After 50% a rider could not compete as it was deemed unhealthy.
 
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It would not surprise me to find out almost ALL of these guys over the past 50 years have been doping one way or another. I'm pretty sure Armstrong even said it's nearly impossible to win the TDF (or any big stage race) without doping.


The ONION.com had a hilarious article back in August 2007 dated the end of August titled: NON DOPING CYCLIST JUST FINISHES TOUR DE FRANCE.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/nondoping-cyclists-finish-tour-de-france,2268/
 
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eztarget said:
It would not surprise me to find out almost ALL of these guys over the past 50 years have been doping one way or another. I'm pretty sure Armstrong even said it's nearly impossible to win the TDF (or any big stage race) without doping.


The ONION.com had a hilarious article back in August 2007 dated the end of August titled: NON DOPING CYCLIST JUST FINISHES TOUR DE FRANCE.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/nondoping-cyclists-finish-tour-de-france,2268/

Well he would say that wouldn't he? Guy is not worth listening too until he fully co operates with USADA to help the sport.
 
ultimobici said:
Zero proof? Certainly there was evidence of an increase in apparently healthy elite Dutch cyclists dying of heart attacks in the early 90s. At the time it was a mystery. Now not so.

Briant_Gumble said:
Lol @ the opposite. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Benotti69 said:
Proof. If you are going to post on an English based forum for as long as you get a spell check.

EPO did kill athletes, it was the reason a 50% HCT level was introduced. After 50% a rider could not compete as it was deemed unhealthy.

In Ryo's world they died because they were pathetic and mentally weak. EPO didnt kill Armstrong ergo EPO doesnt kill anyone unless they are weak. which is their fault.
 
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Benotti69 said:
Well he would say that wouldn't he? Guy is not worth listening too until he fully co operates with USADA to help the sport.

Yes but how many guys have been caught. Hell the they talked about Tom Simpson dying in 1967 on a stage because of doping. It's been around a LONG time and there are probably lots of guys that just NEVER got caught.

Plus the Onion article is hilarious.
 
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Benotti69 said:
He got it wrong on Armstrong before in 1999.

No one is perfect, unless of course if you ride or work for Sky until they tell you you are not and let you go.:D

Yes, but he has the experience of the past 15 years to put it in perspective. Or is in Sky's pocket like Walsh?? :)
 
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