LeMond I

[Semper Fidelis]

What is a "Bloed'? please explain....

You didn't read the link and you're arguing about it? FFS

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Kinda funny how Rooks writes a book about his doping, lots of details about EPO, Cortisone, Test......but said he never did a transfusion.

Bishop says he never doped, a claim backed up by others on PDM. Also says he never saw or heard of transfusions, but talks about a lot of other drugs being used.

You are welcome to pretend that the unconfirmed 25 year old notes of a massage therapist are reliable but don't expect anyone else to share your view

This bold part does not make sense? Why would a massage therapist keep notes or remember doping practices?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this one has also been done to death. Look it up either in this thread or in the thread about when EPO hit the peloton.

Leave Andy alone.
They are obviously so busy going through old 90s archives of NYT articles to do a 5 second search here and did not realize this has been posted twice already in this thread.

They may eventually find something that actually relates to LeMond, his time spent searching NYT articles should be applauded.

 

[D-Queued]

You are right, its probably in the wrong thread.
It was more of a follow up, to the PDM blood bag discussion.

If I were to suggest anything, it would be that LeMond, more than likely, beat riders using blood bags or EPO in 89 and 90.
That would mean his wins are all the more impressive or suspect, depending on whether you believe clean riders can compete with blood doped riders...

I'm on record already, with what I believe.

Now, wind your neck in

Yup. He beat at least 18 of them.

Doctors and blood specialists concluded that the drug could have been implicated in the deaths of as many as 18 European professional bicycle racers between 1987 and 1991.

Dave.

 

[Race Radio]

This bold part does not make sense? Why would a massage therapist keep notes or remember doping practices?

Exactly. At this point it is the only evidence there is of "transfusions". The rest of the team has no recollection of it.

 

[131313]

If I were to suggest anything, it would be that LeMond, more than likely, beat riders using blood bags or EPO in 89 and 90.
That would mean his wins are all the more impressive or suspect, depending on whether you believe clean riders can compete with blood doped riders...

That's actually not what it means. What it really means is that the technology for cryopreservation of RBC's wasn't really all that advanced at the time, and that blood doping an athlete for an event like the TDF just wasn't all that efficacious. A one day race like an Olympic event or an hour record attempt? Yeah, I can see that. Otherwise, there were basically two options: 1) draw the blood too close to the actual event for full RBC regeneration, or 2) have significant RBC loss from the extracted blood. Either way, the net result was that auto-transfusions weren't all that effective until the technology for storing RBC's improved. And keep in mind, this is still an area which is in development, and the most significant advancements have come in just the last few years.

I'm sure blood doping occurred, even during GT's, in the 80's. I just didn't work that well.

 

[thehog]

That's actually not what it means. What it really means is that the technology for cryopreservation of RBC's wasn't really all that advanced at the time, and that blood doping an athlete for an event like the TDF just wasn't all that efficacious. A one day race like an Olympic event or an hour record attempt? Yeah, I can see that. Otherwise, there were basically two options: 1) draw the blood too close to the actual event for full RBC regeneration, or 2) have significant RBC loss from the extracted blood. Either way, the net result was that auto-transfusions weren't all that effective until the technology for storing RBC's improved. And keep in mind, this is still an area which is in development, and the most significant advancements have come in just the last few years.

I'm sure blood doping occurred, even during GT's, in the 80's. I just didn't work that well.

Transportation and risk.

 

[andy1234]

That's actually not what it means. What it really means is that the technology for cryopreservation of RBC's wasn't really all that advanced at the time, and that blood doping an athlete for an event like the TDF just wasn't all that efficacious. A one day race like an Olympic event or an hour record attempt? Yeah, I can see that. Otherwise, there were basically two options: 1) draw the blood too close to the actual event for full RBC regeneration, or 2) have significant RBC loss from the extracted blood. Either way, the net result was that auto-transfusions weren't all that effective until the technology for storing RBC's improved. And keep in mind, this is still an area which is in development, and the most significant advancements have come in just the last few years.

I'm sure blood doping occurred, even during GT's, in the 80's. I just didn't work that well.

Thanks for this.
What about transfusing someone elses blood.
In theory, RBC regeneration and RBC loss would not be an issue, if the blood was drawn and reinfused in a timely fashion?

 

[Benotti69]

Thanks for this.
What about transfusing someone elses blood.
In theory, RBC regeneration and RBC loss would not be an issue, if the blood was drawn and reinfused in a timely fashion?

Like hour records

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Thanks for this.
What about transfusing someone elses blood.
In theory, RBC regeneration and RBC loss would not be an issue, if the blood was drawn and reinfused in a timely fashion?

Was there anything in the NYT about it?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Exactly. At this point it is the only evidence there is of "transfusions". The rest of the team has no recollection of it.

Your friend of 7Eleven saw them you stated before. Why not at the rich team of the late eighties?

This should really be in the PDM thread.

Like hour records

Moser? No!!!

 

[131313]

Thanks for this.
What about transfusing someone elses blood.
In theory, RBC regeneration and RBC loss would not be an issue, if the blood was drawn and reinfused in a timely fashion?

Yeah, homologous transfusions can potentially be effective, which is why Eddy B was supposedly asking US Olympians in the '84 if they had any relatives with the same blood type. There are still two problems with it though: chances of adverse reactions to blood that's not your own are exponentially higher, and there's still the blood storage issue complicated by a bike race that moves around every day. That's not to say it couldn't be used effectively, but it seems that historically it didn't really gain traction until there was a test for EPO, and by then autologous transfusions were more feasible.

 

[andy1234]

Yeah, homologous transfusions can potentially be effective, which is why Eddy B was supposedly asking US Olympians in the '84 if they had any relatives with the same blood type. There are still two problems with it though: chances of adverse reactions to blood that's not your own are exponentially higher, and there's still the blood storage issue complicated by a bike race that moves around every day. That's not to say it couldn't be used effectively, but it seems that historically it didn't really gain traction until there was a test for EPO, and by then autologous transfusions were more feasible.

It's interesting that PDM were one of, if not the first, to have a luxury bus, with refrigeration. Of course, they may just have enjoyed chilled drinks, but it would give more options for transportation.

 

[Race Radio]

Your friend of 7Eleven saw them you stated before. Why not at the rich team of the late eighties?

This should really be in the PDM thread.Moser? No!!!

No, he saw saline/plasma drips. They were common in the sport and it is likely what the masseur was referring to in his notes.

Agreed, this is more about PDM

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Exactly. At this point it is the only evidence there is of "transfusions". The rest of the team has no recollection of it.

I read the translated version of the article and downloaded the images for my wonder world of doping archives. One of the dates was 11-7 which in the USA we would wrote it out as 7-11 what a coincidence.
It was odd for me anyway, that these notes were kept by the massage therapist for so long. In the translation for Zakje Bloed = Blood Bag so I'm not sure why there would be a difference when talking about blood bags unless he was referring to the bag itself that might have contained something other than blood??. Wish this old f'er would be on the clinic to help us out.

NONE of this relates to Greg Lemond in my opinion but hey that is just my 2 cents. I also understood the points that Andy was bringing up with out some type of urge to asks for proof of a vortex etc.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

I read the translated version of the article and downloaded the images for my wonder world of doping archives. One of the dates was 11-7 which in the USA we would wrote it out as 7-11 what a coincidence.
It was odd for me anyway, that these notes were kept by the massage therapist for so long. In the translation for Zakje Bloed = Blood Bag so I'm not sure why there would be a difference when talking about blood bags unless he was referring to the bag itself that might have contained something other than blood??. Wish this old f'er would be on the clinic to help us out.

NONE of this relates to Greg Lemond in my opinion but hey that is just my 2 cents. I also understood the points that Andy was bringing up with out some type of urge to asks for proof of a vortex etc.

I take it the original article was written in Newfie speak!

 

[hiero2]

Leave Andy alone. . . .

I was throwing cold water on my desire to respond again - this made me laugh. Thanks

Now, hopefully, back OT.

 

[Benotti69]

Moser? No!!!

CB no doubt

 

[ChrisE]

Everything.

Cool, then you should have no problem listing them. The below incoherent jibberish doesn't count.

Including the fact that Betsy said to Lance, 'we should leave'.

He told them to stay.

So, yes, she would have preferred to have not been in the room. And, even suggested that they not be in the room.

blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah

No idea what you are saying here in response to my post about hypothetical questions. Hopefully you can figure out what causes these tangential ramblings.

BTW - this is a thread about LeMond.

OK, now the comedian enters the room, though I doubt you were trying to be funny. This "stay on topic" comment coming from a guy whose hobby is interjecting how evil LA is in just about every post he writes regardless of thread topic, in between name dropping and bragging about himself.

But, I do agree. This is the Lemond thread, regardless of any insecurity you may have. I promise to keep in line if you promise to STFU about LA in all the other non-LA threads. Deal?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Leave Andy alone.
They are obviously so busy going through old 90s archives of NYT articles to do a 5 second search here and did not realize this has been posted twice already in this thread.

They may eventually find something that actually relates to LeMond, his time spent searching NYT articles should be applauded.

LOL, touche

 

[D-Queued]

Cool, then you should have no problem listing them. The below incoherent jibberish doesn't count.



No idea what you are saying here in response to my post about hypothetical questions. Hopefully you can figure out what causes these tangential ramblings.






OK, now the comedian enters the room, though I doubt you were trying to be funny. This "stay on topic" comment coming from a guy whose hobby is interjecting how evil LA is in just about every post he writes regardless of thread topic, in between name dropping and bragging about himself.

But, I do agree. This is the Lemond thread, regardless of any insecurity you may have. I promise to keep in line if you promise to STFU about LA in all the other non-LA threads. Deal?

Hypothetical questions, my ****.

But, for your inexactitudes, Let's start with just one, ok?

What was I wrong about???
...

ChrisE: Betsy, don't you wish you were down the hall ...

...

Yes, she did wish she was down the hall. She asked if they could leave when the Doctor entered and started asking for the medical history.

Suggesting that she would rather have been going to the bathroom seems to make you some kind of a smug pr!ck, doesn't it?

Sorry, but I think I am wrong there. I probably mean a smug pr!ck that doesn't have their facts correct.

Where's your head at?

Make a deal? Sure.

With you?

Not so sure.

Not after this nonsense underscoring your inability to take off your Lance glasses.

Besides, what would it gain?

You can pat yourself on the back for diminishing one of a billion voices that are speaking out against Lance. Me, I would be trying to honor a commitment to a person that posts dishonorable rubbish about innocent people.

Further, wrt posting focus, I am confident that my posts on Floyd still far outnumber my posts on your hero. I'm an equal opportunity doper hater. I can only hope that my post count on Lance catches up to Floyd. Funny how Floyd has turned out the winner.

Please accept my personal apologies that Dopestrong makes such a compelling example of cheating and lying.

But, why are you still myopically focused on defending the biggest cheat in sport?

Dave.

 

[sittingbison]

Gentle(wo)men,
can we please try and limit the debate to Lemond, and not let it drift off to vicious lying cheating sociopathic scumbags. There are more than enough other specific threads to voice your disgust and abhorrence at discredited frauds, or even admiration if that way inclined.

cheers
bison

 

[peterst6906]

Gentle(wo)men,
...and not let it drift off to vicious lying cheating sociopathic scumbags

Who, the riders or us in the clinic?

 

[sittingbison]

Well played sir

most normal people probably would have an inkling as to who....except one or two lickspittles and sycophants

 

[andy1234]

So LeMond has admitted to cocaine use, while racing with Renault.
I don't recall this being discussed, other than as a rumour.

Not doping, but worthy of further discussion,no?