LeMond I

[Hugh Januss]

The going rate for info on LeMond doping is $300,000. Mr. Star should cash in all his deep knowledge

That is pocket change to someone of OS's obvious skill set. Not worth the trouble when he is moving and shaking at the level that he does.

 

[BotanyBay]

I remember Kathy Lemond writing about their first encounter with the effects of EPO. One of Greg's young, Dutch PDM teammates died in his sleep of an epo-sludge heart attack. His young wife was American, and the Lemond's are the first people she called after the ambulance took her husband away. as she knew no one else in the Netherlands. Greg new that bad stuff was happening in regards to team mgmt and some experimenting with oxygen vectors, but he apparently told them to screw-off and that put an end to his relationship with that team. He was very upset at how they quickly covered their arses in regards to the death. So the Lemonds had a very early "shocking" introduction to EPO. The rider's wife stayed with the Lemonds while she took care of the funeral arrangements.

Here is that article from Kathy Lemond:

http://greglemond.com/blog/doping-and-those-we-love/

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Starr had mentioned the '89 worlds as one of the suspicious results. I think only a "bleeding edge" doper would have been cycling it during that specific year. That means Lemond would have to be like one of the first 5 people to do it. And I seriously doubt that happened.

If that Starr dude, who is he anyway, was referring to the 1989 worlds he should better have mentioned Lemond bying that trophy. How in the world could he beat Kelly, Konychev, Rooks in a sprint?
http://nos.nl/video/187649-wk-1989-lemond-in-chambery.html
Watch them ride/climb at EPO - speed

 

[L'arriviste]

I remember Kathy Lemond writing about their first encounter with the effects of EPO. One of Greg's young, Dutch PDM teammates died in his sleep of an epo-sludge heart attack. His young wife was American, and the Lemond's are the first people she called after the ambulance took her husband away. as she knew no one else in the Netherlands. Greg new that bad stuff was happening in regards to team mgmt and some experimenting with oxygen vectors, but he apparently told them to screw-off and that put an end to his relationship with that team. He was very upset at how they quickly covered their arses in regards to the death. So the Lemonds had a very early "shocking" introduction to EPO. The rider's wife stayed with the Lemonds while she took care of the funeral arrangements.

http://www.dopeology.org/incidents/Draaijer-death/

The Spiegel source there (originally published in the magazine on 10 June 1991) also confirms the wife's story.

 

[hrotha]

Why are you guys attacking Oliver Starr as a person? That's an Armstrong tactic, people. As if his arguments didn't give you enough ammo by themselves...

 

[GJB123]

http://www.dopeology.org/incidents/Draaijer-death/

The Spiegel source there (originally published in the magazine on 10 June 1991) also confirms the wife's story.

Let me say that at least some facts are being jumbled in that story. I suppose we are referring to Johannes Draaijer, who died of a possibly EPO-related heart failure (although autopsy at that time was inconclusive) in February 1990 (!). Lemond left PDM after 1988, so I think the two events are not correlated in the way that has been implied in this thread.

There is a rumour, that has also been discussed in another thread on early EPO-use, that Lemond fell out with PDM-management mid '88 (when he was also left out of the Tour squad), because he didn't want to fall in line with the team's doping programme. However it is unlikely that programme was already linked to EPO but (as rumour has it) had more to do with possible blood doping and the use of testosterone (for which for example Theunisse got caught in the '88 TdF).

Regards
GJ

 

[pmcg76]

Why are you guys attacking Oliver Starr as a person? That's an Armstrong tactic, people. As if his arguments didn't give you enough ammo by themselves...

+1 Attacking the guy is part of the reason why the clinic gets a bad rep and attacking the guy for not being very good is also lame. It seems that as bad as he was, he was still better than some of the guys whom are now deriding him.

Perhaps he did hear stories on the US domestic scene but the way in which he puts his point across, it seems more his personal opinion based on seeing LeMond in the Tour de Trump in 1990 and finding it hard to believe the same guy could win the Tour a few months later.

Ironically he uses the same approach of hearing a few stories from Europe and applying the "they were all doing it because they just had to be" approach that some of the posters now deriding him use in their own post's.

 

[Race Radio]

Star positions himself as a Pro at the time who posses some form of insider knowledge. Nothing wrong with pointing out this is not true.

As there is zero evidence of LeMond doping the default position of the trolls is he just had to even if there is no evidence. No former teammates, staff, directors say that LeMond doped. Many were offer $ to invent a story. None did.

They seem to ignore the people in the know like Laurent Fignon who said it was possible to win clean in the 80s even though he doped himself.

Like Willy Voet who said there were clean top riders like Charly Mottet despite naming countless people who did dope.

Like Paul Koechli, who ran a clean team in Helvetia/La Suiise without any needles and said LeMond won the Tour clean. Before people say that was because he was his manager, Koechli never said Hinault won the tour clean and he was his manager too. Bernard Tapie, owner of the team said the only guys he knew that definitely didnt dope were LeMond and Bauer, not Hinault, not Bernard.

Like Peter Winnen who says it was possible to win clean in the 80s but everything changed with EPO.

In this case I choose to believe the experts, the people who lived and raced with Greg in Europe.

 

[thehog]

I would agree.

Some of the views expressed on the Landis thread was nothing short of extremism. What disappointed me most about that thread is nobody stepped in to stop the vitriol. I was baited as a troll when requesting a little bit of human decency. To the casual viewer of that thread they would think they just stepped into a hate site. Like Landis or not the thread never should have been allowed to get to the base levels it got to. I think all of us have a responsibility to self check each other if we feel a posters are stepping over the line.

That being said what we see here is some playful fun with a guy who insinuated a lot more than is reality.

If you read the post from Starr he's basically suggesting he rode with LeMond in Europe on the same team! Reality says he may have once been in the same race as LeMond in the US at one time or another. Their careers barely transact each other let alone on the same continent! With that known to allude*in the very direct manner which he did that LeMond was using was a massive stretch and to be honest its slander.

Starr would have as much idea as you or I if LeMond was dabbling in the black arts. This is not pub gossip this is leaving an indelible print on the Internet of his certainty that LeMond was a user. That's not right. The playful nature of the posts here are the best way to handle a joker like that. At least no one started to make sickening and and tenuous links to personal family tragedies whilst pumping a fist in air in some form of victory dance.

Humor is often the best medicine for this type of tomfoolery.

+1 Attacking the guy is part of the reason why the clinic gets a bad rep and attacking the guy for not being very good is also lame. It seems that as bad as he was, he was still better than some of the guys whom are now deriding him.

Perhaps he did hear stories on the US domestic scene but the way in which he puts his point across, it seems more his personal opinion based on seeing LeMond in the Tour de Trump in 1990 and finding it hard to believe the same guy could win the Tour a few months later.

Ironically he uses the same approach of hearing a few stories from Europe and applying the "they were all doing it because they just had to be" approach that some of the posters now deriding him use in their own post's.

 

[hrotha]

RR, of course there's nothing wrong with saying what you just said and attacking his statement regarding LeMond and doping in the late 80s-early 90s, but I think you'll agree his being disliked in the peloton, his work in the field of buzzwords or his interest in ufology have little to do with it.

 

[Caruut]

To me they all constitute reasons to be wary of his statement. When reading something that seems unbelievable, I always try to think about what's in it for the person saying it. On the face of it, he has no personal stake in this argument. However, his alleged narcissist tendencies give him a reason: attention. The fact that he is interested in UFOlogy to me indicates a willingness to believe stuff earnestly without much evidence. Being a guy that wasn't well-liked - most of those are disliked with good reason, perhaps pulling crap like this.

 

[Raul Ramaya]

IMHO, Starr set himself up for personal attacks. Think about it from the average joe perspective (me) reading the comments on Tilfords blog. Starr basically shut down the discussion through the use of the "I am an expert" line and "none of the rest of you know what you are talking about".

As Hog said - he pretended to be someone he is not. I personally appreciate the "rounding" out of his character done here.

If someone relies heavily on claims of insider knowledge to advance an argument it is fair game for others to point out he has none AND WHY...

 

[B_Ugli]

I always think that Lemond was one of the last tour riders to have at least one bad day in the mountains on his way to winning a Tour. Indurain had off days when he lost time to climbers but not in the same way as Lemond. Recent times have seen Tour Winners have unfortunate days but not where they crack badly. Just an observation.

I also think that towards the end of his career big mig became inflatable mig. There is a shot of him at the Atlanta olympics and the Tour of Spain where he abandoned and he looked seriously bulked up. Mid 90's.

 

[ChrisE]

IMHO, Starr set himself up for personal attacks. Think about it from the average joe perspective (me) reading the comments on Tilfords blog. Starr basically shut down the discussion through the use of the "I am an expert" line and "none of the rest of you know what you are talking about".
.

Isn't that what we all do....throw out our opinions and then bash people that go against it? It's going on in this thread, and he is attacked personally.

Why not pick his opinion apart on it's merits? pmc does a pretty good job but AS is being attacked in this forum for the same issue, ie finding his form in July. Blindness to hypocrisy is a common trait in here.

The fact is in 89 and 90 GL found form from basically nowhere in a couple of months. If that happed now, the clinic mob would be hanging that rider up for the buzzards, unless of course he was an enemy of LA. LA being mean to you gives you alot of cover in the clinic.

I have no opinion about what Starr said...it is his opinion and he gives his reasons. I personally do not think GL took EPO, and I believe I even said that in the other thread.

 

[GJB123]

Isn't that what we all do....throw out our opinions and then bash people that go against it? It's going on in this thread, and he is attacked personally.

Why not pick his opinion apart on it's merits? pmc does a pretty good job but AS is being attacked in this forum for the same issue, ie finding his form in July. Blindness to hypocrisy is a common trait in here.

The fact is in 89 and 90 GL found form from basically nowhere in a couple of months. If that happed now, the clinic mob would be hanging that rider up for the buzzards, unless of course he was an enemy of LA. LA being mean to you gives you alot of cover in the clinic.

I have no opinion about what Starr said...it is his opinion and he gives his reasons. I personally do not think GL took EPO, and I believe I even said that in the other thread.

From nowhere? Really? Have you actually bothered reading all the posts in this thread or did you stop when the "red Lemond mist" descended on you. In '89 and '90 Lemond had more race days in the 3 months prior to the Tour than Schlecklet puts together in entire year. And to boot you see a normal lineair increase in form over those months. That is where is form came from. Riding as many races as possible getting tough with it, not doing an altitude camp here and some training there, all the time being virtually invisible to doping investigators as some do now.

Regards
GJ

 

[ChrisE]

From nowhere? Really? Have you actually bothered reading all the posts in this thread or did you stop when the "red Lemond mist" descended on you. In '89 and '90 Lemond had more race days in the 3 months prior to the Tour than Schlecklet puts together in entire year. And to boor you see a normal lineair increase in form over those months. That is where is form came from. Riding as many races as possible getting tough with it, not doing a altitude camp here and some training there, all the time being virtually invisible to doping investigators as some do now.

Regards
GJ

Fair enough, but then the discussion would turn to "how can somebody overtrain so much and be strong" or some type of rubish to slag the modern rider. If AS did that he would still get bashed, and you know it.

Look, as I said I don't think he did it. I just know GL gets a wide berth in here and people bend over backwards to exhonerate, as opposed to bending over backwards the other way with most others.

BTW, what is a "red Lemond mist"?

 

[thehog]

A wee naughty but perhaps someone could link this thread to the comments section and Starr could come here to validate his comments? Just a thought. Rather than us throwing stones he could provide the details that makes him certain of the goings-on that he witnessed.

 

[ChrisE]

A wee naughty but perhaps someone could link this thread to the comments section and Starr could come here to validate his comments? Just a thought. Rather than us throwing stones he could provide the details that makes him certain of the goings-on that he witnessed.

Knock yourself out. I would love for him to come here. Perhaps he is already here.

 

[MR_Sarcastic]

"Roberto" is one of the most misunderstood bike racers. Most competitors didn't understand that you don't "F" with Roberto.

 

[Raul Ramaya]

A wee naughty but perhaps someone could link this thread to the comments section and Starr could come here to validate his comments? Just a thought. Rather than us throwing stones he could provide the details that makes him certain of the goings-on that he witnessed.

I like it. In spite of everything that has been written here I am still scratching my head as to

a) why he is so strident in his opinion (motivation)
b) how he could have thought he wouldn't be called out with his "I know because I was there" line.

If you do a search you'll see that his comments were indeed picked up by other cycling news outlets.

His blog posts on Floyd have a thread of humility -- at one point in the comments section he admits that he may have been wrong on the efficacy of testosterone -- that is very much in contrast to what has been written here (about his character).

 

[thehog]

Knock yourself out. I would love for him to come here. Perhaps he is already here.

Looks like somebody beat us to it. I just noted several posts requesting Starr to back up his claims.

I'll leave it to the lumpenproletariats to deal with such activity.

Not my scene to be frank.

 

[Race Radio]

The fact is in 89 and 90 GL found form from basically nowhere in a couple of months.

What?

He was Greg LeMond, it is not like he was some donkey that came from nowhere. His performances in the Tour of 89 and 90 did not even reach his previous levels.

It is incorrect to pretend that Greg rose from nothing at the Giro to win the Tour. Yes he was poor at the Giro but still managed to finish Top 50.

LeMond had decent early season results in 89, he finished 3rd in the Tour of Americas, and placed 6th in Tirreno-Adriacto and 4th in Criterium International. Top 3 at T-A was Toni Rominger, Charly Mottet & Rolf Golz. At Criterium Internationl, Top 3 was Indurain (who had just won Paris-Nice), Mottet, Roche with LeMond 4th. Indurain won the TT there.

The fact is Greg never got back to his previous levels. If he was on EPO he would have been crushing the field, not barely hanging on

 

[thehog]

From nowhere? Really? Have you actually bothered reading all the posts in this thread or did you stop when the "red Lemond mist" descended on you. In '89 and '90 Lemond had more race days in the 3 months prior to the Tour than Schlecklet puts together in entire year. And to boor you see a normal lineair increase in form over those months. That is where is form came from. Riding as many races as possible getting tough with it, not doing a altitude camp here and some training there, all the time being virtually invisible to doping investigators as some do now.

Regards
GJ

I think by virtue of the fact the LeMond was already a Tour winner from 86 meaning the "surprise" win from no-where in 89 doesn't seem that unbelievable.

I mean in 85 he was 2nd to the greatest Tour rider of all time. Not a stretch to imagine the guy had a little bit of talent in his legs

 

[GJB123]

I think by virtue of the fact the LeMond was already a Tour winner from 86 meaning the "surprise" win from no-where in 89 doesn't seem that unbelievable.

I mean in 85 he was 2nd to the greatest Tour rider of all time. Not a stretch to imagine the guy had a little bit of talent in his legs

You don't need to convince me.

Regards
GJ

 

[thehog]

You don't need to convince me.

Regards
GJ

I know. I was merely supporting your excellent post. A compliment if you will