LeMond I

[Kennf1]

Uh, no.....

Maybe he means with a 19 pound Gitane bike and 42/23 gearing?

 

[marcofanelli]

Greg LeMond was the winner for the three consecutive years (1979-81). Ther first of which, he was a junior.

I'd love to talk about the other pros at Nevada City in 1981, however, there were not very many pros in attendance back then. Can you name some?

Interesting to see discussion of young Greg LeMond in this thread. Allow me to throw in some anecdotes and eventually answer your question above. I was in Greg's first race (William Land Park crit in 1976) as well as the 1981 Nevada City you referenced. As is almost universally the case, all those around during that time feel that he was/is a once-in-a-lifetime cycling talent. He lapped most of the field TWICE at the '81 Nevada City race, and just a couple of the best US pros at the time got lapped only once.

Coincidentally, I was also in a crit with LA when he and Jonas Carney swung through SoCal in spring of 1990. He was of similar age as Greg was in '81 and had about the same number of years of high-level aerobic training, though much of it was during his teenage tri racing. Anyway, Lance was only able to lap a regional field of SoCal crit riders one time.

So, GL laps the best US riders twice; LA laps a field of regional riders once ... therefore, GL is a bigger natural talent! Q.E.D. (just kidding...) As we all know, bike racing is very much NOT one dimensional, and while Greg had a superior aerobic engine, Lance was tops in other qualities (single-minded focus for example).

In another interesting twist, Jonas Carney now runs what many feel is the most squeaky clean US domestic program (Optum/Kelly Benefits) and one that has some loose association with LeMond currently.

Now to your question about who was in that 1981 Nevada City race, here's a blog post that includes copies of the race program and listings and bios for all the riders:
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2007/06/any-gold-left-in-nevada-city-for-me.html

...and another blog post expressing my thoughts four years ago when GL was getting a lot of public flack for confronting Lance about his comeback. It's got some anecdotal history as well, including more of his phenomenal early years.

http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2008/09/still-fan-greg.html

I hope some of this is interesting to fans of cycling history. BTW, my nom de plume is along the lines of Antonio Comforti ... and that reference will only mean anything to a few folks around in the 70's!

 

[Benotti69]

Interesting to see discussion of young Greg LeMond in this thread. Allow me to throw in some anecdotes and eventually answer your question above. I was in Greg's first race (William Land Park crit in 1976) as well as the 1981 Nevada City you referenced. As is almost universally the case, all those around during that time feel that he was/is a once-in-a-lifetime cycling talent. He lapped most of the field TWICE at the '81 Nevada City race, and just a couple of the best US pros at the time got lapped only once.

Coincidentally, I was also in a crit with LA when he and Jonas Carney swung through SoCal in spring of 1990. He was of similar age as Greg was in '81 and had about the same number of years of high-level aerobic training, though much of it was during his teenage tri racing. Anyway, Lance was only able to lap a regional field of SoCal crit riders one time.

So, GL laps the best US riders twice; LA laps a field of regional riders once ... therefore, GL is a bigger natural talent! Q.E.D. (just kidding...) As we all know, bike racing is very much NOT one dimensional, and while Greg had a superior aerobic engine, Lance was tops in other qualities (single-minded focus for example).

In another interesting twist, Jonas Carney now runs what many feel is the most squeaky clean US domestic program (Optum/Kelly Benefits) and one that has some loose association with LeMond currently.

Now to your question about who was in that 1981 Nevada City race, here's a blog post that includes copies of the race program and listings and bios for all the riders:
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2007/06/any-gold-left-in-nevada-city-for-me.html

...and another blog post expressing my thoughts four years ago when GL was getting a lot of public flack for confronting Lance about his comeback. It's got some anecdotal history as well, including more of his phenomenal early years.

http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2008/09/still-fan-greg.html

I hope some of this is interesting to fans of cycling history. BTW, my nom de plume is along the lines of Antonio Comforti ... and that reference will only mean anything to a few folks around in the 70's!

Thanks Marco.

It wont make Armstrongs minions stop their trolling of Lemond.

But cheers anyway

 

[ChrisE]

Funny how Armstrong was on the same team.... but no way he was doped and the rest of the team was required to receive injections. No way.

Who said that? Come out of binary world and smell the flowers.

Well well, it seems I have touched a nerve in here. I'm OK with scum like Joe Papp slagging me, and this is all pretty humurous. I missed a call from Glenn the other day....he must have called to alert me that the clinic posters that I have so much respect for are attacking my good name lol. Yes, I am not in line for the GL rimjob ride. Who cares? Apparently the weak pathetic children in the clinic who get upset when somebody doesn't toss their feces in unison.

Carry on. I will up my post count once FL gets indicted, but until then you guys just don't hold my interest enough to warrant posting more than a few times a week.

 

[patricknd]

Who said that? Come out of binary world and smell the flowers.

Well well, it seems I have touched a nerve in here. I'm OK with scum like Joe Papp slagging me, and this is all pretty humurous. I missed a call from Glenn the other day....he must have called to alert me that the clinic posters that I have so much respect for are attacking my good name lol. Yes, I am not in line for the GL rimjob ride. Who cares? Apparently the weak pathetic children in the clinic who get upset when somebody doesn't toss their feces in unison.

Carry on. I will up my post count once FL gets indicted, but until then you guys just don't hold my interest enough to warrant posting more than a few times a week.

hush troll. you're disrupting the service

 

[BotanyBay]

Interesting to see discussion of young Greg LeMond in this thread. Allow me to throw in some anecdotes and eventually answer your question above. I was in Greg's first race (William Land Park crit in 1976) as well as the 1981 Nevada City you referenced. As is almost universally the case, all those around during that time feel that he was/is a once-in-a-lifetime cycling talent. He lapped most of the field TWICE at the '81 Nevada City race, and just a couple of the best US pros at the time got lapped only once.

Coincidentally, I was also in a crit with LA when he and Jonas Carney swung through SoCal in spring of 1990. He was of similar age as Greg was in '81 and had about the same number of years of high-level aerobic training, though much of it was during his teenage tri racing. Anyway, Lance was only able to lap a regional field of SoCal crit riders one time.

So, GL laps the best US riders twice; LA laps a field of regional riders once ... therefore, GL is a bigger natural talent! Q.E.D. (just kidding...) As we all know, bike racing is very much NOT one dimensional, and while Greg had a superior aerobic engine, Lance was tops in other qualities (single-minded focus for example).

In another interesting twist, Jonas Carney now runs what many feel is the most squeaky clean US domestic program (Optum/Kelly Benefits) and one that has some loose association with LeMond currently.

Now to your question about who was in that 1981 Nevada City race, here's a blog post that includes copies of the race program and listings and bios for all the riders:
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2007/06/any-gold-left-in-nevada-city-for-me.html

...and another blog post expressing my thoughts four years ago when GL was getting a lot of public flack for confronting Lance about his comeback. It's got some anecdotal history as well, including more of his phenomenal early years.

http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2008/09/still-fan-greg.html

I hope some of this is interesting to fans of cycling history. BTW, my nom de plume is along the lines of Antonio Comforti ... and that reference will only mean anything to a few folks around in the 70's!

Thank you so much for posting this, Marco.

Few people around here who came of age during the "Lance era" have an understanding of just how much of a true prodigy Greg was/is as far as cycling ability goes. To witness his domestic domination of the sport was an almost divine privilege. And by that, I mean that to witness it quite often led to pure amazement on the part of the viewer. Having watched Lance Armstrong also, I saw an "incredible talent", but just nothing close to what I witnessed in Greg Lemond.

The Lance-fan-boys, unfortunately, will never get to see what we have seen. So I understand the defense of their hero. They lack perspective.

 

[Oldman]

Thank you so much for posting this, Marco.

Few people around here who came of age during the "Lance era" have an understanding of just how much of a true prodigy Greg was/is as far as cycling ability goes. To witness his domestic domination of the sport was an almost divine privilege. And by that, I mean that to witness it quite often led to pure amazement on the part of the viewer. Having watched Lance Armstrong also, I saw an "incredible talent", but just nothing close to what I witnessed in Greg Lemond.

The Lance-fan-boys, unfortunately, will never get to see what we have seen. So I understand the defense of their hero. They lack perspective.

Of possibly greater importance is that initially Lemond's continental success was frequently in spite of his team's efforts to compromise his position. He entered a very Euro-centric system that didn't assist him and raced one-day and GT's relying on mostly his own research and innovation. He didn't have the benefit of co-opting an entire team and the UCI to achieve his ends. To this day that might have been greater accomplishments than his wins.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Thanks Marco.

It wont make Armstrongs minions stop their trolling of Lemond.
But cheers anyway

Some real good information from this post.

Who is these minions you speak of?

 

[slowoldman]

Of possibly greater importance is that initially Lemond's continental success was frequently in spite of his team's efforts to compromise his position. He entered a very Euro-centric system that didn't assist him and raced one-day and GT's relying on mostly his own research and innovation. He didn't have the benefit of co-opting an entire team and the UCI to achieve his ends. To this day that might have been greater accomplishments than his wins.

If you hit the nail on the head any harder it would go through the plank faster than you could blink.

 

[Polish]

GL was naturally gifted, but today on the Giro, even at the top of his form, he would have lost 1 or 2 minutes on Ryder Hesjedal...

While I believe Greg at the top of his form would have DOMINATED this years Giro, I do agree that he would have lost 1 or 2 minutes on Ryder with his 1991form. Greg would have lost even more with his 92 onwards form.

Greg began his decline in 91. And it is understandable all the "Greg Love" in this thread is Greg as a teenager. Greg as a young pro. Lots of pictures from those times. Good times. But how about some love for 91 onwards Greg? Struggling with medical issues and mental issues and mountain bike racing in the offseason? Where is THAT love. Love is for bettter or worse guys. Better and worse. Sickness and in health. That is true love guys.

Drifting a bit - I find this picture from Greg in the 1992 Tour interesting. Is that a Race Radio in his ear? Carbon Bike. I do not remember any other GT dangermen from the 90's using race radios until Lance. Does anyone know what kind of radio that was?

 

[ultimobici]

While I believe Greg at the top of his form would have DOMINATED this years Giro, I do agree that he would have lost 1 or 2 minutes on Ryder with his 1991form. Greg would have lost even more with his 92 onwards form.

Greg began his decline in 91. And it is understandable all the "Greg Love" in this thread is Greg as a teenager. Greg as a young pro. Lots of pictures from those times. Good times. But how about some love for 91 onwards Greg? Struggling with medical issues and mental issues and mountain bike racing in the offseason? Where is THAT love. Love is for bettter or worse guys. Better and worse. Sickness and in health. That is true love guys.

Utter b*ll*cks! Lemond was not on the slide in 1991, nor 1992. He was being overtaken by riders who had manipulated their blood. In his struggle to understand this he naturally grasped at any explanation. It wasn't until Festina that anyone had any real inkling of the true effects of EPO. The same applies to Fignon's apparent decline.

You're conveniently ignoring the sea-change that EPO brought. A clean rider could hope to compete with chemically enhanced riders prior to its entrance. Once riders were able to change the most fundamental building block of endurance athletes, oxygen carrying capacity, it was futile.

WRT the radios, Motorola were one of , if not the, first teams to use radios in the mid-90's

 

[Polish]

Utter b*ll*cks! Lemond was not on the slide in 1991, nor 1992. He was being overtaken by riders who had manipulated their blood. In his struggle to understand this he naturally grasped at any explanation. It wasn't until Festina that anyone had any real inkling of the true effects of EPO. The same applies to Fignon's apparent decline.

You're conveniently ignoring the sea-change that EPO brought. A clean rider could hope to compete with chemically enhanced riders prior to its entrance. Once riders were able to change the most fundamental building block of endurance athletes, oxygen carrying capacity, it was futile.

WRT the radios, Motorola were one of , if not the, first teams to use radios in the mid-90's

It is not utter bxllxcks. It is true. Please, ask Greg today 2012 if his form declined 1991 onward. He will answer "yes". It was obvious to us fans back then. He would not refute the obvious.

But Greg always had the "tech edge" His whole career. Check out his carbon bike with Scott drop-in bars from 1991. And Big Mig on steel. Although, Big Mig had the MEANEST ever ITT helmet. But I do not remember Big Mig ever wearing a radio. Nor Pantani or Jan in the 90's. Or any other TdF podium finishers back in the 90's. Greg was the first.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Clean Charly Mottet won the Dauphine in -92, but Lemond was forced to abandon the Tour because of EPO, even though he was as good as ever?

Yeah, I doubt that.

 

[ultimobici]

It is not utter bxllxcks. It is true. Please, ask Greg today 2012 if his form declined 1991 onward. He will answer "yes". It was obvious to us fans back then. He would not refute the obvious.

But Greg always had the "tech edge" His whole career. Check out his carbon bike with Scott drop-in bars from 1991. And Big Mig on steel. Although, Big Mig had the MEANEST ever ITT helmet. But I do not remember Big Mig ever wearing a radio. Nor Pantani or Jan in the 90's. Or any other TdF podium finishers back in the 90's. Greg was the first.

At the time, and indeed recently, he claimed that he was in super form in the run up to the 1991 Tour. What had changed completely was that the likes of Chiapucci, Indurain et al were "training" à la Conconi. How would anyone react if their numbers were good but they were being left behind? Without the knowledge that EPO & blood manipulation was what he was up against, he explored other avenues. Am I training hard enough? Am I suffering from lead poisoning? Am I just ill? His natural reaction was to train harder, something that is actually counterproductive.

In the same period he was able to help Duclos-Lassalle to victory in Paris Roubaix, while placing 9th. Not too shabby for a rider on the slide, IMO.

As for the "WOW" carbon bike, Lemond may have been an innovator in many things but carbon was first used by Messrs Simon, Anderson & Millar at Peugeot. Calfee came on the scene a little late in 1991, after TVT had supplied Delgado, PDM & then Lemond.

 

[ultimobici]

Clean Charly Mottet won the Dauphine in -92, but Lemond was forced to abandon the Tour because of EPO, even though he was as good as ever?

Yeah, I doubt that.

Mottet only just scraped it by virtue of being a vastly superior time trial rider than Leblanc could ever hope to be, doped or not. He won by 45' as a result of a 58' win in the final TT.

Lemond was not on the slide in 1991. But by 1992 he had probably started the process himself by burying himself in an effort to catch up with the uncatchable.

 

[Polish]

Lemond was not on the slide in 1991. But by 1992 he had probably started the process himself by burying himself in an effort to catch up with the uncatchable.

I will agree that Big Mig was uncatchable. Most people would agree with that. Greg himself would agree duh. So would so many other riders who came up against Big Mig. Many tried to catch him - all failed.

Back to Back Giro/Tour Doubles.
Almost Back to Back to Back Giro/Tour Doubles.
Damn Berzin grrrrrr.

 

[Gregga]

As for the "WOW" carbon bike, Lemond may have been an innovator in many things but carbon was first used by Messrs Simon, Anderson & Millar at Peugeot. Calfee came on the scene a little late in 1991, after TVT had supplied Delgado, PDM & then Lemond.

I also had a carbon bike in 1992 ... But no radio and no SRM... I remember a french journalist showing this "revolutionnary" system on TV, I think it was in 91.

What I found really innovator is that Greg used the SRM system in 1993/94, it can be seen on his handlebars on the picture of his last TdF. That mean he had understood 20 years ago what some (french) professional teams still do not get in 2012, all the advantage of power training.

About Mottet who won (clean) the 1992 Dauphiné : this is only a 7-days race, we know by now that EPO was most useful in the last week (remember Ugrumov), when hematocrit is getting low if you're not fuelled. In 1991, after one week, Greg had the yellow jersey, third of the prologue and second of the first TT, but started having problems after 10 days. It was worse in 92, as more riders were using EPO, even the first week was a struggle, but he was fifth of the Luxembourg TT (Behind Mig/de la Cuevas/Bugno/Jaskula, all were EPO fuelled, actually Greg won that TT... don't say he was sick !!!)

 

[Big Doopie]

I also had a carbon bike in 1992
About Mottet who won (clean) the 1992 Dauphiné : this is only a 7-days race, we know by now that EPO was most useful in the last week (remember Ugrumov), when hematocrit is getting low if you're not fuelled. In 1991, after one week, Greg had the yellow jersey, third of the prologue and second of the first TT, but started having problems after 10 days. It was worse in 92, as more riders were using EPO, even the first week was a struggle, but he was fifth of the Luxembourg TT (Behind Mig/de la Cuevas/Bugno/Jaskula, all were EPO fuelled, actually Greg won that TT... don't say he was sick !!!)

excellent post. i was about to mention this. from 1991-1994 lemond's appearances in grand tours became steadily shorter and shorter. The element he used to prize himself on -- his ability to recover/winning the tour in the third week, was being quickly eroded by other riders using (and also perfecting!) their use of epo. As early as 1991, after a healthy spring season, he was touted as one of the favorites for the giro. however, after starting strong, he steadily became uncompetitive and eventually dropped out (confused and citing exhaustion, complaining that the giro had changed, ridden much faster) to try and recoup for the tour. again, at the tour that year, he was phenomenal in the first week, so much so that no one doubted for a second that he was on his way to his fourth win. but as the tour hit the second week, he and all his teammates did not have the benefit of the new wonder drug and they fell apart. In 1992, lemond even won the tour de trump in the spring, and -- as mentioned above -- was competitive through the first 10 days of the tour. in 1994, he didn't get past stage 6.

lemond did not always beat other non-epo riders during this time. mottet and fignon both beat him at the 1991 tour. the difference was that lemond was battling to win. anything less was a defeat for himself and his sponsors. so he was riding constantly to beat indurain, chiappucci and bugno who were all epo-fueled. mottet and hampsten -- on the other hand -- were allowed the freedom of gaining 5 minutes one day on the peloton -- something lemond's rivals would never have allowed him. he also over-trained and tried desperately to compete by even trying new off-season weight-lifting to get stronger (but adding bulk).

 

[andy1234]

I also had a carbon bike in 1992 ... But no radio and no SRM... I remember a french journalist showing this "revolutionnary" system on TV, I think it was in 91.

What I found really innovator is that Greg used the SRM system in 1993/94, it can be seen on his handlebars on the picture of his last TdF. That mean he had understood 20 years ago what some (french) professional teams still do not get in 2012, all the advantage of power training.About Mottet who won (clean) the 1992 Dauphiné : this is only a 7-days race, we know by now that EPO was most useful in the last week (remember Ugrumov), when hematocrit is getting low if you're not fuelled. In 1991, after one week, Greg had the yellow jersey, third of the prologue and second of the first TT, but started having problems after 10 days. It was worse in 92, as more riders were using EPO, even the first week was a struggle, but he was fifth of the Luxembourg TT (Behind Mig/de la Cuevas/Bugno/Jaskula, all were EPO fuelled, actually Greg won that TT... don't say he was sick !!!)

Boardman introduced GAN and LeMond to SRMs. LeMond had a very open mind about new methods of improving himself, even at that stage in his career.

 

[simo1733]

Boardman introduced GAN and LeMond to SRMs. LeMond had a very open mind about new methods of improving himself, even at that stage in his career.

Lemond had SRM before Boardman arrived.SRM started selling in 1988 Greg Lemond was one of their first customers.

 

[andy1234]

Lemond had SRM before Boardman arrived.SRM started selling in 1988 Greg Lemond was one of their first customers.

My memory could well be wrong on this one.
Did LeMond use SRMs in races before 1993?

 

[BotanyBay]

My memory could well be wrong on this one.
Did LeMond use SRMs in races before 1993?

I've got a pretty vivid memory about his early adoption of the SRM. It was in the last 1/4 of the 80's. Not sure about his using them in races, but he was certainly using them for training. I remember one article where he talked extensively about both HRMs and power meters. It was pretty obvious that he was still trying to figure out the power meter, but he even made mention that the power data was perhaps even more useful than the HRM data (how right he was). And I remember him talking about how much he had learned with the HRM (things like how the HR drops so quickly when one stops pedaling, coasting downhill etc). And I remember this because NO ONE else in cycling was talking about this stuff in interviews back then. If he wasn't the first to do it, he was certainly one of the first to openly share the fact that he was doing it (OK, Moser spoke about it a LITTLE bit). He wasn't getting "secret training advice" from Italian doctors. He was like a PhD bike racer. Always investigating and pushing himself.

 

[thehog]

I've got a pretty vivid memory about his early adoption of the SRM. It was in the last 1/4 of the 80's. Not sure about his using them in races, but he was certainly using them for training. I remember one article where he talked extensively about both HRMs and power meters. It was pretty obvious that he was still trying to figure out the power meter, but he even made mention that the power data was perhaps even more useful than the HRM data (how right he was). And I remember him talking about how much he had learned with the HRM (things like how the HR drops so quickly when one stops pedaling, coasting downhill etc). And I remember this because NO ONE else in cycling was talking about this stuff in interviews back then. If he wasn't the first to do it, he was certainly one of the first to openly share the fact that he was doing it (OK, Moser spoke about it a LITTLE bit). He wasn't getting "secret training advice" from Italian doctors. He was like a PhD bike racer. Always investigating and pushing himself.

The power meter phenomenon was expensive and adoption was slow. The first models where crank based and required some wiring to the unit. They were also poor and recording data to the unit themselves. The memory on the units was small so and you couldn’t track against heart-rate nor distance etc. The new models using ANT+ you can map the entire ride and see the power output on from each leg and map into to the actual map and distance of your ride. You have attitude, speed, heart-rate and power. A lot better than the simple readout you got back in the day. You couldn't always look at the unit at great speed in the bunch to know your power reading. The hub based models were a little better but you still had to get a custom drive train made up. Back in the day it was 3000-4000USD to get it set up. Not many could use on both training and racing bikes. Actually no one could afford to!

 

[Race Radio]

I don't remember him racing with an SRM much but I do remember him showing up to a training ride in the late 80's with one. The thing was huge, like a small TV set

 

[Race Radio]

1993 Tour

This is more like the powercontrol I remember from 89, huge box