LeMond I

[blutto]

There is indeed some logic there - as the TT in 89 was a mere 24k. In the years after the TTs were at least twice that distance with most in the 50k to 60k range, unless you want to compare some of the mountain TTs ... But that would ruin your 'logic'.

...sorry but that didn't ruin anything...hint...I was being facetious...though it is funny but that TT is often used to "prove" GL's superhuman abilities but when compared to the decades of drug fueled TT's that followed it is then given an asterick...so exactly which is it...proof of extra-terrestrial ability or a weird anomaly?...

Cheers

blutto

 

[mastersracer]

...sorry but that didn't ruin anything...hint...I was being facetious...though it is funny but that TT is often used to "prove" GL's superhuman abilities but when compared to the decades of drug fueled TT's that followed it is then given an asterick...so exactly which is it...proof of extra-terrestrial ability or a weird anomaly?...

Cheers

blutto

Remember, Fignon did not come in 2nd on that stage. Thierry Marie did, 33 seconds down on Lemond. Lemond did a balls out time trial - no time splits, no coach in his ear like today's radio-controlled racers. He just went flat out. He beat one of the best short distance time trialists of his day, but not by a margin that would be considered ET given the circumstances. He put a minute into Fignon, who started too conservatively and was struggling with an infected saddle sore that week. Lemond's own estimate puts his power output on that stage at around 430 watts, which is consistent with his power reducing over the course of the Tour (and is consistent with simulations).

While Lemond wasn't a dominant time trialist in the sense of an Hinault, who won some 25+ ITT stages, Lemond was a more complete GC rider, capable of beating even the best climbers of his day on mountain stages. He was arguably one of the 3-4 most naturally talented GC riders in history, a potential he showed from the earliest days (like he did in L'avenir in 1982 beating Millar and Herrara on mountain stages etc).

 

[thehog]

His GT results timeline makes for good reading, the Tour line goes;

WD WD 36 WD, and then 1 1 1 1 1 1 1. Hmm.

But there's science to back this up:- 8% improvement is worth 18%

One study found that between the ages of 21 (when he was already a pro) and 28 (after winning his first Tour), his muscular efficiency had improved by 8%. After surviving cancer, he also became more focused about managing his weight, so that this 8% was actually worth an 18% increase in his power-to-weight ratio - crucial for cycling up the Alps and Pyrenees.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/jul/28/thisweekssciencequestions3

 

[Epicycle]

But there's science to back this up:- 8% improvement is worth 18%

One study found that between the ages of 21 (when he was already a pro) and 28 (after winning his first Tour), his muscular efficiency had improved by 8%. After surviving cancer, he also became more focused about managing his weight, so that this 8% was actually worth an 18% increase in his power-to-weight ratio - crucial for cycling up the Alps and Pyrenees.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/jul/28/thisweekssciencequestions3

And there was the paper published that argued it wasn't the EPO, it was the fact that he got one nut removed:

http://deadspin.com/5306498/a-nutty-theory-about-lance-armstrong

 

[thehog]

He was fifth, not way down the classification.

Well Greg finally you did it... America's greatest cyclist!

 

[benzwire]

Well Greg finally you did it... America's greatest cyclist!

America's first and only Tour de France winner!

 

[thehog]

America's first and only Tour de France winner!

No I still count Floyd as well. But LeMond 3 Landis 1.

 

[benzwire]

No I still count Floyd as well. But LeMond 3 Landis 1.

How do you count Landis? I think 1991-2010 should be wiped out. I'll give Evans a pass. Don't get me wrong, I like Floyd and he is the one the stirred this all up, but he was no cleaner than anyone else in that era.

 

[joe_papp]

Joe, do you think LeMond could have won a tour clean in the 1990s and 2000s?

See below...

Could Lemond have won a Tour 1993 or after while riding clean? Don't even need Joe to answer that. Lemond answered it by retiring.

Correct...

Excellent post, Joe; LeMond=Champ, ChrisE=malcontent ODD-sufferer.

+1

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Thanks.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

See below...



Correct...






Thanks.

Agree, Joe. It was definitely a different enviroment. Thankfully riders are increasingly no longer faced with that choice of whether they want to win or not. Would have been terrible if a great rider like Lemond went through his career not being able to win.

 

[joe_papp]

Agree, Joe. It was definitely a different enviroment. Thankfully riders are increasingly no longer faced with that choice of whether they want to win or not. Would have been terrible if a great rider like Lemond went through his career not being able to win.

That's a helpful way to look at it, actually - if a bit cynical! True enough though...imagine if LeMond had been relegated to being just reasonably competitive or worse average in GT's b/c of the influx of EPO had it happened at an earlier point in his career!

I know probably everyone posting here has "seen" LeMond ride on TV (and if you haven't, you can relive the 1986 Tour here: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8601B5412ED5F072), but all it took for me was one (1) ride next to LeMond out on the open road to see instantaneously that he was an absolute bike god and really THAT much better than avg pro. Phenomenal. "A Pure Picture of Power," (http://youtu.be/QebN0zH3U-A).

 

[thehog]

How do you count Landis? I think 1991-2010 should be wiped out. I'll give Evans a pass. Don't get me wrong, I like Floyd and he is the one the stirred this all up, but he was no cleaner than anyone else in that era.

The Top 5 American cyclists of all time are:

1. Greg LeMond
2. Andy Hamptston
3. Floyd Landis
4. George Hancapie
5. Tyler Hamilton

 

[hrotha]

The Top 5 American cyclists of all time are:

1. Greg LeMond
2. Andy Hamptston
3. Floyd Landis
4. George Hancapie
5. Tyler Hamilton

Easy to get carried away with the recent news, but this list is stupid. Hamilton and Landis? Come on, they were sporting frauds too, so if you include them you can't leave Armstrong out. Even pre-Ferrari he beats the likes of Hincapie.

 

[Cloxxki]

Easy to get carried away with the recent news, but this list is stupid. Hamilton and Landis? Come on, they were sporting frauds too, so if you include them you can't leave Armstrong out. Even pre-Ferrari he beats the likes of Hincapie.

By such strict rules, the top-5 would become a very short top-5.

And please don't ignore that Lance was on steroids and EPO before Ferrari.

 

[thehog]

Easy to get carried away with the recent news, but this list is stupid. Hamilton and Landis? Come on, they were sporting frauds too, so if you include them you can't leave Armstrong out. Even pre-Ferrari he beats the likes of Hincapie.

No Hamilton and Landis have told the truth Armstrong has not. He is still denying.

History will judge Hamilton and Landis well. They told the truth. Armstrong did not.

My top 5 stands.

 

[hrotha]

By such strict rules, the top-5 would become a very short top-5.

And please don't ignore that Lance was on steroids and EPO before Ferrari.

I'm not ignoring that. My point is that he didn't have a medical advantage over most of his competitors back then. It's not like Landis, Hamilton and Hincapie were clean anyway. Actually, Hamilton has to be one of the heaviest chargers of recent times.

No Hamilton and Landis have told the truth Armstrong has not. He is still denying.

History will judge Hamilton and Landis well. They told the truth. Armstrong did not.

My top 5 stands.

Being eventually honest made them better persons, not better cyclists.

 

[mountaindew]

That's a helpful way to look at it, actually - if a bit cynical! True enough though...imagine if LeMond had been relegated to being just reasonably competitive or worse average in GT's b/c of the influx of EPO had it happened at an earlier point in his career!

I know probably everyone posting here has "seen" LeMond ride on TV (and if you haven't, you can relive the 1986 Tour here: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8601B5412ED5F072), but all it took for me was one (1) ride next to LeMond out on the open road to see instantaneously that he was an absolute bike god and really THAT much better than avg pro. Phenomenal. "A Pure Picture of Power," (http://youtu.be/QebN0zH3U-A).

I trained w/Greg a lot. In winter he let himself go and was not a god. After training camp in Santa Rosa you could not ride next to him.

 

[robow7]

I trained w/Greg a lot. In winter he let himself go and was not a god. After training camp in Santa Rosa you could not ride next to him.

That's what his teammates always said, that he could go from near worthless in the early spring to amazingly fit and find his form in a very short time compared to everyone else.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Easy to get carried away with the recent news, but this list is stupid. Hamilton and Landis? Come on, they were sporting frauds too, so if you include them you can't leave Armstrong out. Even pre-Ferrari he beats the likes of Hincapie.

It's Orwellian. I guess this is one of the 12 guys Vaughter's referred to who take things a little too far.

 

[thehog]

The Top 5 American cyclists of all time are:

1. Greg LeMond
2. Andy Hamptston
3. Floyd Landis
4. George Hancapie
5. Tyler Hamilton

Working through this list a little more with some detail:

1. Greg LeMond - 3 Tours
2. Andy Hamptston - 1 Giro
3. Floyd Landis - 1 Tour, 1 Paris-Nice
4. George Hancapie - 1 GW, 2nd Paris-Roubiax
5. Tyler Hamilton - 1 LBL, 2nd Giro

I'd put Levi 6th because he hasn't made top 3 at a GT.

 

[benzwire]

Working through this list a little more with some detail:

1. Greg LeMond - 3 Tours
2. Andy Hamptston - 1 Giro
3. Floyd Landis - 1 Tour, 1 Paris-Nice
4. George Hancapie - 1 GW, 2nd Paris-Roubiax
5. Tyler Hamilton - 1 LBL, 2nd Giro

I'd put Levi 6th because he hasn't made top 3 at a GT.

2007. Btw, does Alberto have a Livestrong hat on?

 

[taiwan]

2007. Btw, does Alberto have a Livestrong hat on?

Results under The Hog don't count? Otherwise:

 

[thehog]

2007. Btw, does Alberto have a Livestrong hat on?

Thanks for the update. It's a tough call. I might revise my list. Let me look at it further and come back to the forum with an amended list.

 

[thehog]

Working through this list a little more with some detail:

1. Greg LeMond - 3 Tours
2. Andy Hamptston - 1 Giro
3. Floyd Landis - 1 Tour, 1 Paris-Nice
4. George Hancapie - 1 GW, 2nd Paris-Roubiax
5. Tyler Hamilton - 1 LBL, 2nd Giro

I'd put Levi 6th because he hasn't made top 3 at a GT.

Ok new list;

Top 5 American cyclists of all time:

1. Greg LeMond - 3 Tours
2. Andy Hamptston - 1 Giro
3. Floyd Landis - 1 Tour, 1 Paris-Nice
4. Levi Leiphiemer - 3rd Tour, 3rd Vuelta
5. Tyler Hamilton - 1 LBL, 2nd Giro

George moves to 6th place...

 

[taiwan]

Ok new list;

Top 5 American cyclists of all time:

1. Greg LeMond - 3 Tours
2. Andy Hamptston - 1 Giro
3. Floyd Landis - 1 Tour, 1 Paris-Nice
4. Levi Leiphiemer - 3rd Tour, 2nd Vuelta
5. Tyler Hamilton - 1 LBL, 2nd Giro

George moves to 6th place...

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