LeMond I

[benzwire]

Where does Bobby Julich fit in on the list? I always like Julich and I would put him at maybe #5 or #6.

 

[silverrocket]

No Hamilton and Landis have told the truth Armstrong has not. He is still denying.

History will judge Hamilton and Landis well. They told the truth. Armstrong did not.

My top 5 stands.

The list is supposed to be "best" American cyclists, not "most honest and forthcoming" or even "most likeable" American cyclists.

Landis doped his way to a TdF win, but Armstrong doped his way to 7 TdF wins. That must makes him best of the dopers. Hamilton doped and didn't even win a GT.

 

[thehog]

The list is supposed to be "best" American cyclists, not "most honest and forthcoming" or even "most likeable" American cyclists.

Landis doped his way to a TdF win, but Armstrong doped his way to 7 TdF wins. That must makes him best of the dopers. Hamilton doped and didn't even win a GT.

The list is best American cyclists of all time. I don't like doping. I'm not a fan of it. Landis won one Tour, finished in the Top 10 also and won Paris-Nice so he makes Top 5 with ease. I was tempted to put him ahead of Hampsten but Hampsten's career was longer than Landis's so he keeps the number 2 spot.

I need to look into Bobby Jullich. He did finish 3rd in the Tour once. I'd say he'd be 6th maybe 7th after George.

 

[TubularBills]

further back.

Thanks for the update. It's a tough call. I might revise my list. Let me look at it further and come back to the forum with an amended list.

 

[MacRoadie]

People always forget Taylor...

 

[benzwire]

Speaking of LeMond, has he commented on the USADA/Armstrong situation? I haven't heard anything. For someone chastised as being a bitter, jealous old man, he sure is being quiet.

 

[TubularBills]

All Time.

1. Major Taylor (Taylor participated in a European tour in 1902 where he entered 57 races and won 40 of them, defeating the champions of Germany, England and France.)

(* Nitro Glycerine... Riders suffered hallucinations from the exhaustion and perhaps the drugs. Taylor refused to continue one New York race, saying: "I cannot go on with safety, for there is a man chasing me around the ring with a knife in his hand.")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Taylor

2. Greg Lemond

3. Connie Carpenter

4. Andy Hampsten

5. Davis Phinney

6. George Hincapie (victim of loyalty)

& where do the Stetina's fit into this? Transcendent cycling loyal and accomplished family (without ego or drugs.)

 

[thehog]

1. Major Taylor (Taylor participated in a European tour in 1902 where he entered 57 races and won 40 of them, defeating the champions of Germany, England and France.)

(* Nitro Glycerine... Riders suffered hallucinations from the exhaustion and perhaps the drugs. Taylor refused to continue one New York race, saying: "I cannot go on with safety, for there is a man chasing me around the ring with a knife in his hand.")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Taylor

2. Greg Lemond

3. Connie Carpenter

4. Andy Hampsten

5. Davis Phinney

6. George Hincapie (victim of loyalty)

& where do the Stetina's fit into this? Transcendent cycling loyal and accomplished family (without ego or drugs.)

No doubt with LeMond at position 1.

Landis or Hampsten has to be 2nd.

The rest is a little harder to distribute; Hincapie hasn't really won a lot of big races. He's always been there but not a great Champion.

Boyer I'd given kudos to buy again doesn't have a lot of big races on his shelf.

 

[TubularBills]

Boyer is a true hero;

But... carries baggage.

We would be complicit not to consider?

 

[TubularBills]

I agree. Landis!

Only tainted and ruined by Armstrong.

An absolute natural talent.

 

[TubularBills]

People always forget Taylor...

unfortunate, isn't it.

overcame through sheer passion & determination, what in this day is 'Nike.'

 

[thehog]

I agree. Landis!

Only tainted and ruined by Armstrong.

An absolute natural talent.

Disagree. Floyd was never tainted by Armstrong. History will judge him well.

In the age of radio controlled teams Floyd would be awesome addition to the peloton of today. Kids could lean a lot.....

His acerbic and crazy brain would push some on the edge tactics.

You never know... would have made for great viewing. Cycling's loss.

 

[TubularBills]

Disagree. Floyd was never tainted by Armstrong. History will judge him well.

In the age of radio controlled teams Floyd would be awesome addition to the peloton of today. Kids could lean a lot.....

His acerbic and crazy brain would push some on the edge tactics.

You never know... would have made for great viewing. Cycling's loss.

Well said. Our Loss... we missed a revolution. Damn reality...

I agree, we missed out on seeing a cycling great. unfortunate.

 

[BigBoat]

Having read the comments of Olive Starr, a few things need to be highlighted.
Of all LeMonds Tour victories, 1990 would be the most suspicious considering where he was at the Tour de Trump as Starr mentioned. In 89(this seems to get ignored a lot)LeMond actually had very good early season, Top 10 Tour of Americas, Criterium International, Tirreno-Adriatico and 16th at Het Volk. His form then just seemed to desert him overnight and he started to struggle again but he was never as bad as he was in 1990.

LeMond did come into the 1990 season badly overweight and out of shape, he really struggled through the first half of the season as Starr noted. However it wasnt training that saw LeMond progress rapidly as Starr suggested, it was that old fashioned style of getting in shape, racing, lots of racing.

The Tour de Trump finished on May 13, LeMond then started the Giro on May 18, he was still far from top form but was active getting in an 139kn break in the mountains on stage 15. The Giro finished on June 6 and LeMond then started the Tour of Switzerland June 13-22 in which he finished 10th overall. The Tour started on June 30th and the first major encounter was the TT on stage 7. In a 7 week period up to the end of Switzerland, LeMond raced for 40 days!!! .

hmm....I ride with lower category cyclists and family all the time. I let them ride ahead of me and they've "beaten" me....

But as Steve Tilford mentions Lemond was strong enough to win the TDF as a junior rider if the stars aligned. Gran Tours...watts per kilo and Lemond certainly had the that. The 92.5 V02 max and all.

Now you can have a low sustainable power in relation to your V02 max power (not many miles in the legs)... or your V02 max can drop with rapid weight loss (loosing muscle mass off the lower body.)

 

[silverrocket]

The list is best American cyclists of all time. I don't like doping. I'm not a fan of it. Landis won one Tour, finished in the Top 10 also and won Paris-Nice so he makes Top 5 with ease. I was tempted to put him ahead of Hampsten but Hampsten's career was longer than Landis's so he keeps the number 2 spot.

I need to look into Bobby Jullich. He did finish 3rd in the Tour once. I'd say he'd be 6th maybe 7th after George.

I guess I just don't understand the criteria for a list that says Floyd Landis is a better cyclist than Lance Armstrong. Lance had that really high cadence and everything. That alone should have put him on the top of the list.

 

[mountaindew]

There has been a lot of great cyclist from the US. Impossible to say who were the top 5 unless the criteria was based strictly wins. There are other things that make you great in cycling. Thurlow Rogers was a super talent but pretty much failed in Europe.

 

[noddy69]

I'm surprised no one has responded to your post. I have to say, this is how I have perceived things. Now I don't know the truth, however, the change in arrival on the scene is, if anything, noteworthy. Today, it seems, we expect a rider to be papabile at a grand tour only after a few seasons. How is this possible? Has the sophistication of preparation meant that young riders are no longer capable of emerging, or is it drugs?

At any rate, things have changed dramatically since the 80's haven't they.

Rank Time Name Year Nationality
1 37' 35" Marco Pantani 1997 Italy
2* 37' 36" Lance Armstrong 2004 United States
3 38' 00" Marco Pantani 1994 Italy
4 38' 01" Lance Armstrong 2001 United States
5 38' 04" Marco Pantani 1995 Italy
6 38' 23" Jan Ullrich 1997 Germany
7 38' 34" Floyd Landis 2006 United States
8 38' 35" Andreas Klöden 2006 Germany
9* 38' 37" Jan Ullrich 2004 Germany
10 39' 02" Richard Virenque 1997 France
11 39' 06" Iban Mayo 2003 Spain
12* 39' 17" Andreas Klöden 2004 Germany
13* 39' 21" Jose Azevedo 2004 Portugal
14 39' 28" Miguel Induráin 1995 Spain
15 39' 28" Alex Zülle 1995 Switzerland
16 39' 30" Bjarne Riis 1995 Denmark
17 39' 31" Carlos Sastre 2008 Spain
18 39' 44" Gianni Bugno 1991 Italy
19 39' 45" Miguel Induráin 1991 Spain
20 40' 00" Jan Ullrich 2001 Germany
21 40' 46" Fränk Schleck 2006 Luxembourg
22 40' 51" Alexander Vinokourov 2003 Kazakhstan
23 41' 18" Lance Armstrong 2003 United States
24 41' 21" Samuel Sánchez 2011 Spain
25 41' 30" Alberto Contador 2011 Spain
26 41' 46" Cadel Evans 2008 Australia
27 41' 50" Laurent Fignon 1989 France
28 41' 50" Luis Herrera 1987 Colombia
29 41' 57" Pierre Rolland 2011 France
30 42' 15" Pedro Delgado 1989 Spain
31 43' 12" Ryder Hesjedal 2011 Canada
32 43' 12" Thomas Danielson 2011 United States
33 45' 20" Gert-Jan Theunisse 1989 Netherlands
34 45' 22" Fausto Coppi 1952 Italy
35 48' 00" Bernard Hinault 1986 France
36 48' 00" Greg Lemond 1986 United States

Alpe duez times. Le Monde ,one of the most naturally gifted talents ever way down the list. Excellent posts I just thought that the times here reflect the natural talent against guys who shall we say "blosom" late on.

 

[fatandfast]

Rank Time Name Year Nationality
1 37' 35" Marco Pantani 1997 Italy
2* 37' 36" Lance Armstrong 2004 United States
3 38' 00" Marco Pantani 1994 Italy
4 38' 01" Lance Armstrong 2001 United States
5 38' 04" Marco Pantani 1995 Italy
6 38' 23" Jan Ullrich 1997 Germany
7 38' 34" Floyd Landis 2006 United States
8 38' 35" Andreas Klöden 2006 Germany
9* 38' 37" Jan Ullrich 2004 Germany
10 39' 02" Richard Virenque 1997 France
11 39' 06" Iban Mayo 2003 Spain
12* 39' 17" Andreas Klöden 2004 Germany
13* 39' 21" Jose Azevedo 2004 Portugal
14 39' 28" Miguel Induráin 1995 Spain
15 39' 28" Alex Zülle 1995 Switzerland
16 39' 30" Bjarne Riis 1995 Denmark
17 39' 31" Carlos Sastre 2008 Spain
18 39' 44" Gianni Bugno 1991 Italy
19 39' 45" Miguel Induráin 1991 Spain
20 40' 00" Jan Ullrich 2001 Germany
21 40' 46" Fränk Schleck 2006 Luxembourg
22 40' 51" Alexander Vinokourov 2003 Kazakhstan
23 41' 18" Lance Armstrong 2003 United States
24 41' 21" Samuel Sánchez 2011 Spain
25 41' 30" Alberto Contador 2011 Spain
26 41' 46" Cadel Evans 2008 Australia
27 41' 50" Laurent Fignon 1989 France
28 41' 50" Luis Herrera 1987 Colombia
29 41' 57" Pierre Rolland 2011 France
30 42' 15" Pedro Delgado 1989 Spain
31 43' 12" Ryder Hesjedal 2011 Canada
32 43' 12" Thomas Danielson 2011 United States
33 45' 20" Gert-Jan Theunisse 1989 Netherlands
34 45' 22" Fausto Coppi 1952 Italy
35 48' 00" Bernard Hinault 1986 France
36 48' 00" Greg Lemond 1986 United States

Alpe duez times. Le Monde ,one of the most naturally gifted talents ever way down the list. Excellent posts I just thought that the times here reflect the natural talent against guys who shall we say "blosom" late on.

where is the * next to the names of guys convicted or admitted to doping offenses.Just from your list it looks like Lance has a dim outlook,not that the majority of the list has dopers but a big percentage

 

[Big Doopie]

Rank Time Name Year Nationality
1 37' 35" Marco Pantani 1997 Italy
2* 37' 36" Lance Armstrong 2004 United States


27 41' 50" Laurent Fignon 1989 France
28 41' 50" Luis Herrera 1987 Colombia
29 41' 57" Pierre Rolland 2011 France
30 42' 15" Pedro Delgado 1989 Spain
31 43' 12" Ryder Hesjedal 2011 Canada
32 43' 12" Thomas Danielson 2011 United States
33 45' 20" Gert-Jan Theunisse 1989 Netherlands
34 45' 22" Fausto Coppi 1952 Italy
35 48' 00" Bernard Hinault 1986 France
36 48' 00" Greg Lemond 1986 United States

It is amazing to note that armstrong and pantani would have put over 4 minutes in one climb to the top riders of only a few years before. Laurent Fignon (two-time Tour winner) was at the top of his game and fighting to take the yellow jersey, and then Herrera (the natural climber of his generation)...would have dropped 4 minutes in one climb!

Epo and blood doping turned pro cycling into a farce.

 

[hwyrngr]

There has been a lot of great cyclist from the US. Impossible to say who were the top 5 unless the criteria was based strictly wins. There are other things that make you great in cycling. Thurlow Rogers was a super talent but pretty much failed in Europe.

He never really got started. Remember 4 overall in the Peace Race and some other real high placings. He impressed Hinault early in the 86 season. From what I understood though was his wife at the time was putting a lot of presure on him to stay in the states

 

[Zweistein]

Rank Time Name Year Nationality
1 37' 35" Marco Pantani 1997 Italy
2* 37' 36" Lance Armstrong 2004 United States
3 38' 00" Marco Pantani 1994 Italy
4 38' 01" Lance Armstrong 2001 United States
5 38' 04" Marco Pantani 1995 Italy
6 38' 23" Jan Ullrich 1997 Germany
7 38' 34" Floyd Landis 2006 United States
8 38' 35" Andreas Klöden 2006 Germany
9* 38' 37" Jan Ullrich 2004 Germany
10 39' 02" Richard Virenque 1997 France
11 39' 06" Iban Mayo 2003 Spain
12* 39' 17" Andreas Klöden 2004 Germany
13* 39' 21" Jose Azevedo 2004 Portugal
14 39' 28" Miguel Induráin 1995 Spain
15 39' 28" Alex Zülle 1995 Switzerland
16 39' 30" Bjarne Riis 1995 Denmark
17 39' 31" Carlos Sastre 2008 Spain
18 39' 44" Gianni Bugno 1991 Italy
19 39' 45" Miguel Induráin 1991 Spain
20 40' 00" Jan Ullrich 2001 Germany
21 40' 46" Fränk Schleck 2006 Luxembourg
22 40' 51" Alexander Vinokourov 2003 Kazakhstan
23 41' 18" Lance Armstrong 2003 United States
24 41' 21" Samuel Sánchez 2011 Spain
25 41' 30" Alberto Contador 2011 Spain
26 41' 46" Cadel Evans 2008 Australia
27 41' 50" Laurent Fignon 1989 France
28 41' 50" Luis Herrera 1987 Colombia
29 41' 57" Pierre Rolland 2011 France
30 42' 15" Pedro Delgado 1989 Spain
31 43' 12" Ryder Hesjedal 2011 Canada
32 43' 12" Thomas Danielson 2011 United States
33 45' 20" Gert-Jan Theunisse 1989 Netherlands
34 45' 22" Fausto Coppi 1952 Italy
35 48' 00" Bernard Hinault 1986 France
36 48' 00" Greg Lemond 1986 United States

Alpe duez times. Le Monde ,one of the most naturally gifted talents ever way down the list. Excellent posts I just thought that the times here reflect the natural talent against guys who shall we say "blosom" late on.

The thing that saddens me about this is how some of these guys probably are exceptionally talented but just not into get in a "program". Tom Danielson may have been one of the best or atleast better climbers of this generation and has been lucky to just make the top ten most of the time. I say that just because Tom has always struck me as too smart or too dumb , depending on your views of doping, to do want most do so they can ride full blast everyday and not worry about recovery.

 

[joe_papp]

People always forget Taylor...

Respect to MT, but fair enough to say that I wouldn't have considered him for the list, either. He is representative of a totally different and unrelated era, whereas the others nominated to the list were all active w/in, what, 20 years of each other?

How about this kid Joe Dombrowski who just won the Baby Giro today? Sure, it's not the Giro, or even l'Avenir, but still, it's the Baby Giro!

 

[woodburn]

Rank Time Name Year Nationality
1 37' 35" Marco Pantani 1997 Italy
2* 37' 36" Lance Armstrong 2004 United States
3 38' 00" Marco Pantani 1994 Italy
4 38' 01" Lance Armstrong 2001 United States
5 38' 04" Marco Pantani 1995 Italy
6 38' 23" Jan Ullrich 1997 Germany
7 38' 34" Floyd Landis 2006 United States
8 38' 35" Andreas Klöden 2006 Germany
9* 38' 37" Jan Ullrich 2004 Germany
10 39' 02" Richard Virenque 1997 France
11 39' 06" Iban Mayo 2003 Spain
12* 39' 17" Andreas Klöden 2004 Germany
13* 39' 21" Jose Azevedo 2004 Portugal
14 39' 28" Miguel Induráin 1995 Spain
15 39' 28" Alex Zülle 1995 Switzerland
16 39' 30" Bjarne Riis 1995 Denmark
17 39' 31" Carlos Sastre 2008 Spain
18 39' 44" Gianni Bugno 1991 Italy
19 39' 45" Miguel Induráin 1991 Spain
20 40' 00" Jan Ullrich 2001 Germany
21 40' 46" Fränk Schleck 2006 Luxembourg
22 40' 51" Alexander Vinokourov 2003 Kazakhstan
23 41' 18" Lance Armstrong 2003 United States
24 41' 21" Samuel Sánchez 2011 Spain
25 41' 30" Alberto Contador 2011 Spain
26 41' 46" Cadel Evans 2008 Australia
27 41' 50" Laurent Fignon 1989 France
28 41' 50" Luis Herrera 1987 Colombia
29 41' 57" Pierre Rolland 2011 France
30 42' 15" Pedro Delgado 1989 Spain
31 43' 12" Ryder Hesjedal 2011 Canada
32 43' 12" Thomas Danielson 2011 United States
33 45' 20" Gert-Jan Theunisse 1989 Netherlands
34 45' 22" Fausto Coppi 1952 Italy
35 48' 00" Bernard Hinault 1986 France
36 48' 00" Greg Lemond 1986 United States

Alpe duez times. Le Monde ,one of the most naturally gifted talents ever way down the list. Excellent posts I just thought that the times here reflect the natural talent against guys who shall we say "blosom" late on.

One thing to remember is LeMond and Hinault rode together and were way ahead of the field. They were not doing a max effort.

 

[noddy69]

One thing to remember is LeMond and Hinault rode together and were way ahead of the field. They were not doing a max effort.

True, but they were not exactly out for a sunday ride and are over ten minutes in one climb away from the fastest which is hard to take. I believe the way they rode is more reflective in the times just above theirs rather than the top times for the climb which apart from the obvious(including the obvious imo) reads particularly badly. It reflects an era of cycling where clean doesnt seem to be an option, unless of course you are super human, which for some reason many people one athlete to be.

Le Mond was an extremely gifted cyclist at a young age, he progressed to being the same at an older age and won the tour. His time on the climb reflects his ability. Now doping accusations are being slung about. So look at the circumstantial evidence in the times on this climb and make up your own minds on who would be the more obvious dope cheats who were not caught at the time. Le Mond would not be the first one I would pick and I just thought this info was a good illustration.

 

[thehog]

I guess I just don't understand the criteria for a list that says Floyd Landis is a better cyclist than Lance Armstrong. Lance had that really high cadence and everything. That alone should have put him on the top of the list.

The criteria is simple. The top 5 best American cyclists of all time:

The list stands:

1. Greg LeMond - 3 Tours
2. Andy Hamptston - 1 Giro
3. Floyd Landis - 1 Tour, 1 Paris-Nice
4. Levi Leiphiemer - 3rd Tour, 2nd Vuelta
5. Tyler Hamilton - 1 LBL, 2nd Giro

No way David Phinney is getting my my list.