LeMond I

[Albatros]

The first article, reporting the passing of Bellocq, merely name checks the two biggest stars of the Z Team which he had worked for. The second article states that LeMond used an outside doctor to get tests done, suggesting that he was applying the same logic as he had in 1986, that is don't trust the team medics. If anything, your two quotes suggest he stayed well clear of Bellocq.

Sorry, that is your very biased interpretation of the two quotes. The only thing that it is stating under no uncertain terms is that Bellocq was Lemond doctor.

And please don't kill the messenger if the info is wrong. By the way, Pascal Simon corroborates that Lemond was a client of Monsieur Bellocq.



http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=François Bellocq&f=false

 

[MacRoadie]

How easily we jump on some cyclists back when their team doctor is a dubious one and how in this case it is not applicable.

Now, who in the world could we be referring to?....

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sorry, that is your very biased interpretation of the two quotes. The only thing that it is stating under no uncertain terms is that Bellocq was Lemond doctor.

And please don't kill the messenger if the info is wrong. By the way, Pascal Simon corroborates that Lemond was a client of Monsieur Bellocq.



http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=François Bellocq&f=false

Thats a link to Amazon??
If you want to bring up the Robert Millar book - what did Millar say about EPO and when did he feel it was introduced?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Right now I am afraid it is impossible. And I said I could provide or I can provide them, not that I will provide them.



And certainly I will not give them to someone as unpolite as you.

Okay, pretty please, with sugar on top, post the ****ing quotes.

 

[ultimobici]

Sorry, that is your very biased interpretation of the two quotes. The only thing that it is stating under no uncertain terms is that Bellocq was Lemond doctor.

And please don't kill the messenger if the info is wrong. By the way, Pascal Simon corroborates that Lemond was a client of Monsieur Bellocq.



http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=François Bellocq&f=false

Nope, it's my reasoned & logical conclusion after reading widely about the sport for nigh on 30 years. If you had actually read the quote from page 263 properly, you'd have noticed the way the sentence is constructed. So allow me, a native english speaker, to give you a quick lesson.

Pascal Simon, who says that "Bellocq was taking care of most of the peloton at that time" including Hinault, Delgado & LeMond, has "nothing bad to say about the doctor. He never gave me.......etc"

The bolded parts are what he said, the underlined part is what the author, Richard Moore, added. Had the inverted commas included the name dropping you'd have a point. But Simon couldn't have known if Lemond was seeing Bellocq, only assumed he was. When you bear in mind that Simon was never on the same team as LeMond, it is very tenuous link you are attempting to make.

My view of LeMond is that it is possible that he used PEDs in the 80's but, and it is a very big but, his unflinching stance on doping for the better part of a decade and a half sets him up to be exposed as a charlatan. In spite of this he has not had a single credible accusation levelled at him. It's a long proven fact that those that stand up on a soapbox and preach on morality always get exposed for frauds when they have a ropey past and that normally happens pretty swiftly. So this begs the question, why hasn't it happened to LeMond?

 

[Red Lobster]

By the way, Pascal Simon corroborates that Lemond was a client of Monsieur Bellocq.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=François Bellocq&f=false

You must have linked to the wrong thing. Otherwise, if you are asserting that as corroboration that Lemond was a client, you have lost any and all credibility. It simply doesn't say that.

ETA: nevermind, ultimobici already demonstrated your failure here.

 

[red_flanders]

Pretty simple really - I requested Albatros to back up what they say and show the quotes, the answer was go back and read the thread.

My opinion, quite simply that is not someone who is interested in a discussion or debate - I don't see why there is a problem then calling it trolling, as that is exactly what it is.

The problem is that incessant calling people trolls turns the thread into a discussion of who is and isn't a troll, rather than the topic at hand.

Please report posts you feel to be trolling and we will happily look at it, or for nuanced issues like this, people should feel free to PM me and we can discuss where the moderation stands on an issue, rather than what so often happens where people assume things aren't being done, which is almost never the case.

Further discussion of moderation will be moved to the mod thread. Thanks everyone.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

What about le docteur? Maybe he failed to balance Lemond hormones this time?

You surely must know the bloke and his deeds.

And in any case, sick as a parrot and still 7th. What else do you want?

Could you please back up your piano statement LeMond was sick in 1991?

Perhaps he was sick in his head of all those donkeys suddenly able to outclimb him?

 

[Albatros]

all your arguments are based on a faulty knowledge of historical facts. actually this whole "team doctor" thing really starts with the epo era. lemond has declared that he didn't have a specific "doctor" following him throughout his career. if he was sick, he went to see his family doctor. but he didn't have a "doctor" following him as he raced. he didn't even have a personal cycling coach/trainer either. it was only in the early 90s that he briefly got in contact with a dutch trainer to see if there was anything he could do to be competitive again -- anything in his training...but there was nothing he could do against epo.

we are so used to teams and individual riders having all these freakin' doctors around them since epo and blood doping (and testing) came around that we jump to the conclusion that riders had that throughout the history of cycling. simply not true. this is yet another false assumption we make after the last 20 + years, when the actual "need" for any type of doctor -- other than to give an aspirin if you had a headache -- should actually draw suspicion. the only real reason for having a team of doctors following a team is to have a team-wide doping program.

lemond didn't have a personal "sports" (read "blood") doctor. that is why everyone knew that going to see ferrari meant one thing, and one thing only.

(Note: I think it took lemond several years to realize exactly how much epo could alter performance. in 1991, having come into the tour in fantastic shape -- demonstrated by his first week, he assumed that when he fell off the pace it must be because he was sick. The Mens Journal article is one of many that describes this period of revelation that ended with the ex-teammate in 1993 telling z exactly what the italian teams were doing. and the final crushing blow was being dropped by the pack in 1994 on the flats. this slow understanding is completely consistent with a culture that was probably pretty secretive at first (to hold onto the advantage) and a supremely gifted athlete -- with a VO2max he knew to be off the charts -- assuming that his natural gifts could overcome any challenge, because they had before)

It is your post that seriously lacks faithfulness to the historical facts.

You are right on one thing. Lemond was in tremendous shape until the Pyrenees when he collapsed in val louron.

Just before that stage he stated "I don't fear the climbers at all as they are not going to get 4 minutes on me in the mountains".

Then in Val Louron he had to be helped by bloody Eric Boyer to get to the finishing line. Was his teammate on EPO too? What about the super clean riders Mottet and Hamsten who also finished stronger than him, especially the French.

The is a serious revisionism over here on the exploits of Lemond during the EPO era, a revisionism that it is shared by Lemond himself, who blamed his accident as the cause for his poor showing.

If only he had come to the media at the time with what was the real reason for his decline


And now I am been told that in 1991 Lemond suspicion is baseless as his doctor Bellocq was not even listened to, only to be reminded that Lemond consulted Dr Vanmol for his ailments.

And that is in 1991.

Curiously enough Dr Flavio Alessandri accused Van Mol years later of doping his entire team during the 1993-1994 season.

So I can imagine how all this went.
DELETED

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

It is your post that seriously lacks faithfulness to the historical facts.

Lol.

And now I am been told that in 1991 Lemond suspicion is baseless as his doctor Bellocq was not even listened to, only to be reminded that Lemond consulted Dr Vanmol for his ailments.

And that is in 1991.

Historical facts? 1992 you mean...

Keep on searching, please, it is fun.

Where is the proof LeMond was sick in 1991?

 

[Albatros]

You must have linked to the wrong thing. Otherwise, if you are asserting that as corroboration that Lemond was a client, you have lost any and all credibility. It simply doesn't say that.

ETA: nevermind, ultimobici already demonstrated your failure here.

it says that Simon said "Bellocq was taking care of most of the peloton at the time" including Lemond, Hinault....

So it was either his patient, his client, his, whatever. The thing is that he was beeing health checked (?) by a doper.

And don't worry, that doesn't necessarely mean that he was being doped. That only applies to other cyclists.

 

[Albatros]

Lol.


Historical facts? 1992 you mean...

Keep on searching, please, it is fun.

Where is the proof LeMond was sick in 1991?

Can you read French? If so check the two links I posted earlier. From the Belgian paper Le Soir.

I mean 1991.

 

[Albatros]

Below a Le Soir link where Van Mol is linked to doping activities in 1993.

Van Mol is our famous Lemond health consultant(?)

Got to be careful with the words.



http://archives.lesoir.be/le-docteur-yvan-vanmol-montre-du-doigt_t-20070630-00C7UJ.html

 

[Albatros]

Now, who in the world could we be referring to?....

Almost any other rider. Sorry I stopped having heros by the age of 10, and at that time Lemond was not probably riding a bike yet, not to mention the one you are suggesting who wasn't even born.

By the way, congratulations on your reporting. I have been given a warning.

In the mean time people calling me troll left and right remain unscathed. Do I need to report them mods?

Sorry but I am too old for this game.

 

[D-Queued]

Four posts in a row?

All trolls?

This is either a complete obsession, a paid shill, or both.

Time to close the thread. There is no objectivity being provided on the one hand, and no listening to any being offered.

Dave.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Time to close the thread. There is no objectivity being provided on the one hand, and no listening to any being offered.

Dave.

Then just ignore it. Don't read it. Don't respond.

Susan

 

[D-Queued]

Then just ignore it. Don't read it. Don't respond.

Susan

Sorry, I click on all updated threads here... bad habit.

My bad. Point well taken.

Dave.

 

[Albatros]

Four posts in a row?

All trolls?

This is either a complete obsession, a paid shill, or both.

Time to close the thread. There is no objectivity being provided on the one hand, and no listening to any being offered.

Dave.

What you are saying is absolutely false. I am providing links supporting my arguments and not, I don;t get paid by anyone to express my vies over here. That is a serious suggestion that I ma not going to report cause I don't play that game.

But mind you, I am finding it difficult over here to find people on my wavelengh. So you may not need to worry if you accidentaly open this thread in the future.

PS. Your Spanish is far worse than my English. Just saying

 

[GJB123]

Nope, it's my reasoned & logical conclusion after reading widely about the sport for nigh on 30 years. If you had actually read the quote from page 263 properly, you'd have noticed the way the sentence is constructed. So allow me, a native english speaker, to give you a quick lesson.

Pascal Simon, who says that "Bellocq was taking care of most of the peloton at that time" including Hinault, Delgado & LeMond, has "nothing bad to say about the doctor. He never gave me.......etc"

The bolded parts are what he said, the underlined part is what the author, Richard Moore, added. Had the inverted commas included the name dropping you'd have a point. But Simon couldn't have known if Lemond was seeing Bellocq, only assumed he was. When you bear in mind that Simon was never on the same team as LeMond, it is very tenuous link you are attempting to make.

My view of LeMond is that it is possible that he used PEDs in the 80's but, and it is a very big but, his unflinching stance on doping for the better part of a decade and a half sets him up to be exposed as a charlatan. In spite of this he has not had a single credible accusation levelled at him. It's a long proven fact that those that stand up on a soapbox and preach on morality always get exposed for frauds when they have a ropey past and that normally happens pretty swiftly. So this begs the question, why hasn't it happened to LeMond?

How convenient that Albatros of the two posts on the alleged Pascal Simon quote doesn't reply to the one that most clearly demonstrates his fallacy. Just to help him out I have quoted ultimobici so he can respond to that particular post as well, not that I trust him to reply to that post in the same way he keeps ignoring other posts that show his failed logic or show his lack of facts.

Regards
GJ

 

[Albatros]

How convenient that Albatros of the two posts on the alleged Pascal Simon quote doesn't reply to the one that most clearly demonstrates his fallacy. Just to help him out I have quoted ultimobici so he can respond to that particular post as well, not that I trust him to reply to that post in the same way he keeps ignoring other posts that show his failed logic or show his lack of facts.

Regards
GJ

I have stated many times over here that my motto when interpreting people from cycling remarks over here is as follows:

1. Fully believe everything bad the cyclists say about themselves, always taking into account that it could be even worse than what they are saying.

2. Take with a pinch of salt remarks that do no fit into my view of cycling as being rotten to the core.

It is true that Millar says that Bellocq never gave him anything forbidden(?)

First of all, that does not mean that he is telling the truth.

Doctor Bellocq was an advocate of hormone rebalancing, which it is plain and simple an eufemism for doping.

You have ignored that fact which is far more serious than that remark of Millar. After all, it is not the case that MOST cyclists go about confessing their sins. Is it?

My intention was to link Lemond to a doctor linked to doping, which I have done not only once, but twice, with Dr Van Mol included.

Then it is up to the reader to deduce or conclude what kind of involvement Lemond had with those doctors.

By the way, I would like to know how hormone balancing is done without incurring in doping. If the anwser is not, why Millar contacted this doctor to take care of him if he was precisely famous for that kind of treatment.

Anyone can believe what they please. I know what I believe.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

By the way, I would like to know how hormone balancing is done without incurring in doping. If the anwser is not, why Millar contacted this doctor to take care of him if he was precisely famous for that kind of treatment.

Anyone can believe what they please. I know what I believe.

Now whe know how Robert became Roberta! Too much dr Bellocq...

And now serious. You deduct from contradicting articles LeMond was a patient at Bellocq's socalled hormone therapy, excluding the fact Bellocq was just the team psysician at Z - Peugot.

Also in the case of van Mol who only told LeMond to go and see in Italy why those guys were going so much faster. Van Mol is a dirty man, you don't have to tell people in the clinic.

Your links don't work.

 

[GJB123]

I have stated many times over here that my motto when interpreting people from cycling remarks over here is as follows:

1. Fully believe everything bad the cyclists say about themselves, always taking into account that it could be even worse than what they are saying.

2. Take with a pinch of salt remarks that do no fit into my view of cycling as being rotten to the core.

It is true that Millar says that Bellocq never gave him anything forbidden(?)

First of all, that does not mean that he is telling the truth.

Doctor Bellocq was an advocate of hormone rebalancing, which it is plain and simple an eufemism for doping.

You have ignored that fact which is far more serious than that remark of Millar. After all, it is not the case that MOST cyclists go about confessing their sins. Is it?

My intention was to link Lemond to a doctor linked to doping, which I have done not only once, but twice, with Dr Van Mol included.

Then it is up to the reader to deduce or conclude what kind of involvement Lemond had with those doctors.

By the way, I would like to know how hormone balancing is done without incurring in doping. If the anwser is not, why Millar contacted this doctor to take care of him if he was precisely famous for that kind of treatment.

Anyone can believe what they please. I know what I believe.

You have not linked Lemond to Bellocq. You have misinterpreted a quote as ultimobici was kind enough to explain and to which you naturally do not respond in any way, shape or form. How typical!

Furthermore is quite clear that you believe each and every cyclist to be a liar and a doper. That's you prerogative but do not start mixing up believe with facts and proof (of which you have provided non in the case of Lemond).

BTW, why are you still interested in cycling if you have clearly been so disappointed by cyclists and cycling in general? You must be masochistic to high level to keep watching cycling and posting in cycling fora.

Regards
GJ

 

[Big Doopie]

DELETED

i wonder if you realize that the more you flail and fail, the more you have gotten dates wrong, facts wrong, misquoted, mistranslated and misrepresented linked articles that you yourself have brought up -- that you are only serving to emphasize that if this is all anyone can drudge (make) up after 20 years, then lemond must most assuredly and definitely have been clean.

your efforts, by their inaccuracy and palpable desperation, actually have had the opposite result from what you wished.

 

[Albatros]

Now whe know how Robert became Roberta! Too much dr Bellocq...

And now serious. You deduct from contradicting articles LeMond was a patient at Bellocq's socalled hormone therapy, excluding the fact Bellocq was just the team psysician at Z - Peugot.

Also in the case of van Mol who only told LeMond to go and see in Italy why those guys were going so much faster. Van Mol is a dirty man, you don't have to tell people in the clinic.

Your links don't work.

My links have curiously stopped working,
but ask other posterss who had the oportunity to look at them can tell tyou that a virus infection is mentioned during the 1991 Tour.

I ma not inventing it.

On the realationship of Lemond and Van Mol it is your sole interpretation.

MY question would be, did Lemond knew, that Van Mol was a doper when he consulted him. Is it likely or not? What do you think?

On the other hand, one can safely deduct that when Lemond signed for Z he knew that his doctor was going to be a doper, which seriously clashes with the notion of Lemond fighting doping causes, at least at the time.

Bellocq was known as a doper since the 70's. Not that I was easy to find a clean doctor, but just saying.

 

[Benotti69]

My links have curiously stopped working,
but ask other riders who had the oportunity to look at them mentioning the virus infection that Lemond suffered during the 1991 Tour.

ask who exactly? Where are these riders that are available to discuss this?

I ma not inventing it.

Of course you are. you are on on CN to trll LeMond. I have yet to see you post a thead or post about Ocana! You are the most obvious troll in here at present time.

and the babble goes on and on and on