LeMond II

Page 66 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
I stand corrected. Dhaenens had been mentioned before. (Though not in the Lemond thread.)
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Arnout said:
According to Michael Boogerd, in the peloton at the time he was riding, it was rumored LeMond brought EPO in the peloton. Dunno if it's true or not, but I always find it a bit puzzling to see the clinic always earmarking LeMond as off-limits, like some sort of saint.
That also happened around the 1999 Tour de France. Jan Gisbers, the DS of PDM - Pills, Drugs and Medicine -, also hinted to this in the book 'Meesterknecht':
http://books.google.nl/books?id=_UV...ed=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=lemond epo&f=false
Too bad Gisbers forgot the interview he gave on 24th of may 1988 where he explained how come LeMond was bad that year due to a tenosynovitis caught because of a fall at E3 Harelbeke which even caused him to be in plaster on his left leg, eventually needing surgery in july. His condition was even 'dangerously good' according to that same Jan Gisbers.

a summary of LeMonds racedays we can go here:
http://www.greglemondfan.com/photo archive.html

Do note the results in 1989 were allready much better than 1988 leading up to the Tour de France, not the Giro off course.

If we then take the famous phonecall between LeMond and Armstrong from Seven Deadly Sins:
http://books.google.nl/books?id=Lp3...=0CEEQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=lemond epo&f=false

and if LeMond would have used epo he would be a bigger liar/psycho than Armstrong in my book. Wouldnt a guy like Steve Tilford, not very pro - doping to my belief, call him on his BS then?

To the bold, nobody is off limit. I also heard those rumours, do for instance a google search ''Dhaenens epo LeMond''. But why has nobody come forward in all those years, it is not like LeMond was the most popular figure in the peloton, he was seen as a turn - penny by many of his peers.

If the rumour was true, I would like to know why after 1990 the stuff did not work for him anymore...
good post FGL.
(a pity the first link to that Gisbers quote doesn't seem to work anymore)
 
May 15, 2014
417
3
4,285
Re: Re:

jmdirt said:
That analogy drives me crazy! Back pasture thoroughbred to derby winner maybe, but donkey to racehorse implies that anyone could win the TdF if they take EPO. Heck, I won a few regional pro dirt races, and I don't for a second think that EPO would have gotten me a World Cup dirt title. At the top they are all thoroughbreds.

Well, it turned Jesper Skibby into the likes of TDF winner Greg LeMond. Insert "kangaroo" instead of "donkey" and there you go.

"The most important fact is this : with his 1985 time, Greg would have achieved the 2nd time in 1990, then the… 28th time in 1995, same as Jesper Skibby. Now, with all due respect to Mr Skibby I doubt he ever was in a position to win the Tour de France, was he ?"

https://greglemondfans.wordpress.com/2014/05/03/dark-side-of-the-lake/
 
May 15, 2014
417
3
4,285
Re: Re:

Tonton said:
Instead of "lack of humility" on our part, what about "lack of integrity" on some riders' part? Lemond denounced doping when it suited his agenda. Look at him now! And I didn't say "call out names". Denouncing rampant PED use would have done it. Gilles Delion did it. That's integrity.

Interestingly enough, Gilles Delion kind of answered this thread today on Le Monde.fr (french newspaper, not related to Greg).

Deion claims to have suffered from "energetic dysfunction" that might have been psychological too.

"Delion insists : he was often portrayed as a victim of EPO, but was in fact only a victim of his own body. If he had been at the peak of his physical abilities and pushed back into the gruppetto, would he have resisted the temptation (to dope) ? He doesn't know. "Maybe I had stronger ethics, but was it enough ?", he wonders. Did he not see some of his Helvetia teammates like Pascal Richard and Mauro Gianetti, become EPO poster boys ? « Some of them were forced into it. Others were out looking for the products; then there are those who could have been great and just underwent a very dark period."

Gilles Delion does not claim to be a white knight of anti-doping, which Christophe Bassons later did. He only was despite himself and because of a naive statement after winning a TDF stage in 1992 : "I am a product of water and fruit paste". An insinuating. "You say something like that just once during the Tour and it starts snowballing : you are a victim of just this one sentence that everyone keeps rehashing. It was clumsy because other riders could see it as a denunciation when I was not talking about doping. I wasn't suspecting anything. That was cycling's reputation, that's all. I wanted to defend my sport"

(...)

"At one point, we've had had enough clues. Guys fighting for ice cubes to keep EPO cool. Italians started to win everything. Then I saw a Gan sprinter doing tempo on a Tour du Haut Var climb..."
Delion had understood but said nothing because he feared he might pass as a jealous loser. It's only later, after he quit, in 1997, that he would report the widespread use of EPO. Those words excluded him from the peloton."

http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/visuel/2015/07/20/on-a-retrouve-gilles-delion-le-champion-inacheve_4690925_3242.html?xtmc=gilles_delion&xtcr=1

I see a few analogies with Greg LeMond I talked about just a few pages ago. But of course, this is just my interpretation.
 
Dec 6, 2013
8,518
7,793
23,180
Re: Re:

@NL_LeMondFans said:
jmdirt said:
That analogy drives me crazy! Back pasture thoroughbred to derby winner maybe, but donkey to racehorse implies that anyone could win the TdF if they take EPO. Heck, I won a few regional pro dirt races, and I don't for a second think that EPO would have gotten me a World Cup dirt title. At the top they are all thoroughbreds.

Well, it turned Jesper Skibby into the likes of TDF winner Greg LeMond. Insert "kangaroo" instead of "donkey" and there you go.

"The most important fact is this : with his 1985 time, Greg would have achieved the 2nd time in 1990, then the… 28th time in 1995, same as Jesper Skibby. Now, with all due respect to Mr Skibby I doubt he ever was in a position to win the Tour de France, was he ?"

https://greglemondfans.wordpress.com/2014/05/03/dark-side-of-the-lake/

Mr. Skibby never won the TdF, nor was he ever in the GC battle so I'm not sure how he was "turned into the likes of a TdF winner" based on a fast TT. But, that isn't my point. You don't get to that level unless you are a thoroughbred. At one point were there some quarter horses in the pro platoon? Maybe, but not anymore. Have some of the back pasture thoroughbreds become race winners? Probably, thanks to programs, but the top thoroughbreds have programs too.

Let me use a current, specific example: Assuming that they all dope: If Froome is such a donkey on a program, how is it that he is leading the thoroughbreds who are also on programs. The answer is that he is a thoroughbred. Don't tell me that "Sky has a better program" BULL!

Kangaroo?! Do they have kangaroos in Denmark (excluding zoos)?
 
Nov 12, 2010
4,253
1,314
18,680
Re: Re:

jmdirt said:
@NL_LeMondFans said:
jmdirt said:
That analogy drives me crazy! Back pasture thoroughbred to derby winner maybe, but donkey to racehorse implies that anyone could win the TdF if they take EPO. Heck, I won a few regional pro dirt races, and I don't for a second think that EPO would have gotten me a World Cup dirt title. At the top they are all thoroughbreds.

Well, it turned Jesper Skibby into the likes of TDF winner Greg LeMond. Insert "kangaroo" instead of "donkey" and there you go.

"The most important fact is this : with his 1985 time, Greg would have achieved the 2nd time in 1990, then the… 28th time in 1995, same as Jesper Skibby. Now, with all due respect to Mr Skibby I doubt he ever was in a position to win the Tour de France, was he ?"

https://greglemondfans.wordpress.com/2014/05/03/dark-side-of-the-lake/

Mr. Skibby never won the TdF, nor was he ever in the GC battle so I'm not sure how he was "turned into the likes of a TdF winner" based on a fast TT. But, that isn't my point. You don't get to that level unless you are a thoroughbred. At one point were there some quarter horses in the pro platoon? Maybe, but not anymore. Have some of the back pasture thoroughbreds become race winners? Probably, thanks to programs, but the top thoroughbreds have programs too.

Let me use a current, specific example: Assuming that they all dope: If Froome is such a donkey on a program, how is it that he is leading the thoroughbreds who are also on programs. The answer is that he is a thoroughbred. Don't tell me that "Sky has a better program" BULL!

Kangaroo?! Do they have kangaroos in Denmark (excluding zoos)?
Its not about who has the best program but who is the best responder. Which is why LA went from top30 to 1st. The "donkeys" which is the bottom half of the peloton will probably never win but the top30-50 riders can gain a lot. There are a number of examples for that as well. In Sky EBH was considered to be one of the best talents but he is no where near Froome as he did not respond to the Sky program whatever it is legal or otherwise.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
don't forget HGH was introduced in the...early 90s.
many have stated that it was the combo EPO + HGH that was the real game changer.
It's a fact that EPO was used in the late 80s (Draaijers, Oosterbosch), when, nb, it wasn't on the banned list yet.
It's also a fact that something else happened in the early 90s. Was it the introduction of HGH and its combo with EPO?
It seems clear Lemond was not part of that early 90s game change.
Mere speculation of course, but: maybe he did EPO in the late 80s, knowing it wasn't on the banned list at the time but refused to get on the HGH, knowing it would count as doping?
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Re:

Franklin said:
I'm not going to wave away the impact of Epo performance wise, but the 70-80ies had much more life-affecting trouble due to the widespread use of amfetamines.

Much more often than in the 1990-2000 domestics ended their career addicted. Yes, we all know Pantani, but we can just as easily look at Maertens and VandeVelde as drug addicts. And worse.. whereas Pantani used drugs recreationally, amfetamines were widespread seen as a neccesity to cycle and are much more addictive than anything used nowadays.

Also, keep in mind the building blocks were already in use. Bloodvvector doping did exist in the seventies, albeit primitively. Steroids certainly were just as effective then as they are now.

I really don't think it's a stretch to say that Greg is not principly against doping. His friends, his teams, his doctor, none of them particularly clean.
good post.

The point here is: Lemond doesn't strike me as a guy who knew what was on the prohibited list at the time -- Kimmage: "But you knew about the culture?" Greg: "yeah, but I didn't care".
Now, we know from esafosfina that Vanmol was sending a variety of products to all ADR riders in 89. Some, but not all, of those products were prohibited substances.
Now would Greg really meticulously have checked which of those products sent to him by Vanmol were on the banned list, and which weren't? I doubt it. Maybe his soigneur Otto had seen jesus, and told him, out of that chocoloate box of supplements, do not touch substances xyz. Possible? yes. Likely? not really.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Can anybody in the know (86tdfwinner maybe?) tell me what Lemond's official story wrt his kidneys is?
In the Kimmage interview he says he had a chronic kidney infection from the day he was born.
I am now reading that in fact one of his kidneys became fully malfunctional:
When operating on LeMond after his 1987 hunting accident, the surgeons were more then a little worried by the fact that as a child, he had lost the use of a kidney. However, the operation went smoothly; and since 1987, LeMond has managed to win two Tours De France and a World Championship, with just one kidney and only partial use of one lung.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/printthread.php?t=11920&pp=40
1. Why didn't he tell Kimmage? Sounds like a pretty relevant detail, especially in the context of his chronic kidney infection, which he does mention to Kimmage.
2. Can anybody with medical knowledge tell me if this one-kidney amateur --> tdf winning procyclist is at all plausible? One testicle, ok, but one kidney? ;)
 
Mar 7, 2009
790
147
10,180
Re:

sniper said:
Can anybody in the know (86tdfwinner maybe?) tell me what Lemond's official story wrt his kidneys is?
In the Kimmage interview he says he had a chronic kidney infection from the day he was born.
I am now reading that in fact one of his kidneys became fully malfunctional:
When operating on LeMond after his 1987 hunting accident, the surgeons were more then a little worried by the fact that as a child, he had lost the use of a kidney. However, the operation went smoothly; and since 1987, LeMond has managed to win two Tours De France and a World Championship, with just one kidney and only partial use of one lung.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/printthread.php?t=11920&pp=40
1. Why didn't he tell Kimmage? Sounds like a pretty relevant detail, especially in the context of his chronic kidney infection, which he does mention to Kimmage.
2. Can anybody with medical knowledge tell me if this one-kidney amateur --> tdf winning procyclist is at all plausible? One testicle, ok, but one kidney? ;)

I should imagine he did tell Kimmage. I watched bike racing as a teen in my 80s and was aware of this, and also I think that Colombian Fabio Parra only had one kidney. This wasn't something Lemond was hiding
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Re: Re:

Avoriaz said:
sniper said:
Can anybody in the know (86tdfwinner maybe?) tell me what Lemond's official story wrt his kidneys is?
In the Kimmage interview he says he had a chronic kidney infection from the day he was born.
I am now reading that in fact one of his kidneys became fully malfunctional:
When operating on LeMond after his 1987 hunting accident, the surgeons were more then a little worried by the fact that as a child, he had lost the use of a kidney. However, the operation went smoothly; and since 1987, LeMond has managed to win two Tours De France and a World Championship, with just one kidney and only partial use of one lung.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/printthread.php?t=11920&pp=40
1. Why didn't he tell Kimmage? Sounds like a pretty relevant detail, especially in the context of his chronic kidney infection, which he does mention to Kimmage.
2. Can anybody with medical knowledge tell me if this one-kidney amateur --> tdf winning procyclist is at all plausible? One testicle, ok, but one kidney? ;)

I should imagine he did tell Kimmage. I watched bike racing as a teen in my 80s and was aware of this, and also I think that Colombian Fabio Parra only had one kidney. This wasn't something Lemond was hiding

cheers.
i'm finding two accounts on the internet. One where he lost a kidney in the shooting accident, another where he lost it as a child. But yeah, you seem to be right, not something he tried to keep secret.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
This is one interesting post by a guy named Wolfix on some internet forum. Possibly a Lance-associate, but I honestly couldn't care less: s/he's presenting some salient details.
http://www.cyclingforums.com/topic/346048-interesting-lemond-letter-re-20-year-itt-record/page-2
EPO ws introduced in June with sales that month of $17 million. That part is true, but that is not the story.

Let's look at EPO and its history.

EPO was developed years before and not released, but being used in research on kidney patients. The only reason it was not available to the general public before 1989 was because of legal issues.

But here just a little room for thought.....

EPO was researched and used before 1989 in the University of California Research centers which the University of California Davis are part of. .

Erythropoietin, or EPO, is a synthetically produced hormone that promotes red blood cell production. The drug was targeted for people with kidney disease on dialysis, a process that lowers the kidneys' natural production of EPO. Other uses was soon thought of for EPO.
The drug could also be used to reduce the need for blood transfusions during surgery.
...

While this EPO research was going on at the University of California Research Centers for kidney patients , guess who was a prima donna patient in it's critical care unit ?????
[with his kidneys being one of the main problems riddled with pellets}........

Greg Lemond.......

Greg was there in the critical care unit after being shot. He had a tremendous loss of blood and over the next week he had tubes still in his chest. He was in bad shape with his life hanging on by a brake cable. So here he was, in a hospitol that was researching a drug that would help him with the post surgury recovery. A drug used for kidney problems and post surgury recovery. But not released for public sale at the time.

Now, just because Greg was in the home and research labratories of EPO does not mean he was a user.

I'm just stating he was in the same hospitol system, at the same time EPO was being tested on kidney patients. What's important here is it wasn't being tested in Europe, it wasn't being tested anywhere else in the world except in the 3 University of California research centers that Amgen used.. It was in the hospitol where Greg was. . And Greg's kidney problem that arose from being shot is exactly what they were researching EPO for. .

[We know Greg only had one kidney since he was a child, but I'm not sure if this would have affected him in any way in his recovery or during the critical time he was losing blood. ]

Why would they have used EPO on Greg?

Well, one of the early uses of EPO was as follows.......

"EPO is used to accelerate the recovery of hemoglobin to a normal level for an individual who undergoes high-blood-loss surgery. such as critical care after being shot."

Let's jump ahead here to the 1989 Giro......The day before a hilly ITT. Greg was barely hanging on, as he was all season long. But the next day he was flying......

Greg tells us that his remarkable recovery was due to a iron shot during the Giro. Otto told him he was anemic.. Now, Otto was a guy who rubbed sweaty muscles for a living. He held no degree in medicine.But he knew a iron shot was the answer.

We know Greg struggled in 1989. Then bam!!!!!! He was world beater, a totally unstoppable force over the next 4 months. He won a TDF, did the fastest ITT in the history of the sport, and won the World's by sprinting against S Kelly. In one single night, less then 24 hours , he went from the back of the pack to the best rider cycling had.

How could this possible? Let's ask Greg.
"I took a iron supplement that night,"Greg said later. "The next day I felt the improvement. Before that,on the smallest hill, I was gone."

Would a simple iron shot do this? Let's ask the doctors at the research center......

[This following info comes from a document from research at the University of Cal Davis, where Lemond was hospitolized while EPO research and usage was going on.......]

"With use of recombinant erythropoietin (EPO) and intravenous iron, the majority of hemodialysis patients can achieve target hemoglobin concentrations."
These are the documented words of UC Davis research center, not mine.

Hemoglobin concentrations?

Basically, EPO coupled with an iron shot would give someone a tremendous boost if what they were attempting to do required large amounts of oxygen.

Using this info from the EPO researchers, if a cyclist was suffering and using EPO, wouldn't raising your hemoglobin level maybe bring you up to speed overnight? It's my understanding that hemoglobin transports the oxygen to the lungs. That may be important for a professional cyclist. We know he used intravenious iron.

Let's say for the fun of it Greg was intoduced to and was using EPO after his stay at UC Davis. It would not have been introduced to the peloton yet as it was only available in the research centers in California until June 1989. And it would have never been tested for by the UCI.

Now......

Let's go farther with this.

None of this is proof that Greg used EPO. But chances are good he was aware of it in some form or other before any other professsional cyclist. Or possibly a doctor who was involved with Greg during his stay at UC Davis knew of the research going on and the benefits of EPO.

Greg was standing in the center of EPO central. You couldn't get any closer then he was, long before anyone in Europe had an any idea of what it was. So we had a hospitol doing research on EPO with a world class athlete in it's ward. Would there have been a better patient? Then several years later EPO becomes famous for the infamous evil it became in cycling.

Did he use it? Who knows.......

Maybe some research is needed to see what other cyclists or people were/are attched to UC Davis during that time and later become involved in professional sports.
Again, there may be a Lance-Lemond-smear campaign behind it. But that shouldn't dismiss us from looking at the facts, which in this case seem to be interesting enough. Greg being treated in the hospital where EPO research was done.
And in the end the poster is merely suggesting something that seems to have been rumored among large parts of the peloton in the early 90s.
In any case, the claim that Greg only became aware of EPO in 1993 is hilarious at best.
 
Jun 25, 2015
5,332
5,421
23,180
I love LeMond's story -- his first two tdf wins got me into cycling -- but there is something inherently sketchy and a little untrustworthy about him. He doesn't seem to be totally with it all the time. But he gets a lifetime pass from me after the Trek/LA fiasco. I mean, they basically destroyed the guy's life.

WRT doping -- it's really hard to believe that in the late 80s LeMond raced clean, but then again the level of sophistication in terms of knowing how to exploit PEDs doesn't seem to have been there (with the exception of the Iron Curtain athletes). You still had NFL players basically gulping and shooting everything and anything. So I can only assume that while many in the peloton were on the gear, it was random enough so that a clean rider could have found success. Likewise the training was pretty primitive before HRMs etc.
 
Aug 11, 2012
416
0
0
Just one thing need to be said over and over again. LeMond was one heck of talent. Multiple World Champion (junior/professional).

Its kinda ironic that he was at the center of these EPO ''developments'' but its not like he came out of nowhere. Some people just blow up things too much.

I mean stuff like this

"We know Greg struggled in 1989. Then bam!!!!!! He was world beater, a totally unstoppable force over the next 4 months."

World beater ? He looked pretty human at the climbs at the TDF '89.

IMO there is nothing strange about him beating Kelly in Chambery (I was there btw :)). He always had a strong finish and Kelly has been known to be beatable in big sprints). There's nothing strange about his final TT in Paris, he has always been one of the best TT specialists. One might think its strange he went from #39 in the Tour of Italy of 1989 to #1 in the Tour de France 1989. He already showed big improvement in the final week in the Giro of '89 and the Tour was weeks later.

I dont trust anyone but its still Greg LeMond.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Re:

[quote=""Jeff"":1z3f3dm8]Just one thing need to be said over and over again. LeMond was one heck of talent. Multiple World Champion (junior/professional).

Its kinda ironic that he was at the center of these EPO ''developments'' but its not like he came out of nowhere. Some people just blow up things too much.

I mean stuff like this

"We know Greg struggled in 1989. Then bam!!!!!! He was world beater, a totally unstoppable force over the next 4 months."

World beater ? He looked pretty human at the climbs at the TDF '89.

IMO there is nothing strange about him beating Kelly in Chambery (I was there btw :)). He always had a strong finish and Kelly has been known to be beatable in big sprints). There's nothing strange about his final TT in Paris, he has always been one of the best TT specialists. One might think its strange he went from #39 in the Tour of Italy of 1989 to #1 in the Tour de France 1989. He already showed big improvement in the final week in the Giro of '89 and the Tour was weeks later.

I dont trust anyone but its still Greg LeMond.[/quote]
good post, agreed. This poster I quoted definitely blows that out of proportions.
As for his improvement in the final week of the Giro: I think that came directly after his 'iron shots', so that's not necessarily an argument in support of Lemond.

But the interesting part from that Wolfix post I quoted is that Lemond got his kidney(s) treated in a hospital where at the same time apparently groundbreaking EPO research was being carried out on kidney patients.
What are the odds?
At least it helps understanding the 90s rumor in the peloton that Greg was one of the first epo users if not the first.
(The PDM link is also interesting in this regard.)
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
here's a good concise website about (chronic) kidney failure, anemia and EPO.
http://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-topics/kidney-disease/anemia-in-kidney-disease-and-dialysis/Pages/facts.aspx
One thing that immediately stands out is the strong correlation between (chronic) kidney failure and anemia.
Bottom line: If you suffer from the former, the chances are high you will also suffer from the latter.
Now Lemond's official version is he had chronic kidney infections since the day he was born, and has been riding around with just one functional kidney ever since he was a kid.
So if you go from there... to give any sort of credibility to the story that in 1989, after at least two decades of being a kidney patient, Greg didn't know he had anemia and needed his soigneur to tell him... well, that's one way of completely discrediting all the doctors Greg has ever worked with since a child, including his parents for failing to inform him on some of the very basics of being a kidney patient.
It's ridiculous.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
from the Kimmage interview, you get the idea Greg didn't have a clue what he was talking about.
"And honestly, I know that if you eat right you should be able to take iron in, and I ate a lot of red meat so I was like ‘Otto, I don’t feel like doing it.’ Part of it was that I didn’t believe that was my problem"
Wow, coming from a life long kidney patient, tdf winner, with at least a decade of close medical guidance not to mention his 1987 stint in the emergency clinic after getting shot with possible kidney damage...doesn't believe he might have anemia...
"I ate a lot of red meat", lol. Let me refresh your memory Greg: you were missing one kidney...
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Re:

Dr.ugs said:
Is lemond connected to charmichael (the American blood doper I think) and the U.S. Blood doping program?
others will know much more about this.
but i can say that they're at least indirectly connected through Eddie Borysewicz (short Eddie B.) and Ed Burke, the architects of the USA blood doping scheme in the 1984 LA olympics.
Eddie B. is also credited for 'discovering' Lemond.
That's not the best of references for Greg, I can tell you that.
Somewhere in 2003 Lemond was doing a fundraiser for Eddie whose house had burned down.
That's funny because there are people in here who present Eddie B.'s vouching for Lemond as evidence that Lemond was clean.
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
Re: Re:

sniper said:
Franklin said:
I'm not going to wave away the impact of Epo performance wise, but the 70-80ies had much more life-affecting trouble due to the widespread use of amfetamines.

Much more often than in the 1990-2000 domestics ended their career addicted. Yes, we all know Pantani, but we can just as easily look at Maertens and VandeVelde as drug addicts. And worse.. whereas Pantani used drugs recreationally, amfetamines were widespread seen as a neccesity to cycle and are much more addictive than anything used nowadays.

Also, keep in mind the building blocks were already in use. Bloodvvector doping did exist in the seventies, albeit primitively. Steroids certainly were just as effective then as they are now.

I really don't think it's a stretch to say that Greg is not principly against doping. His friends, his teams, his doctor, none of them particularly clean.
good post.

The point here is: Lemond doesn't strike me as a guy who knew what was on the prohibited list at the time -- Kimmage: "But you knew about the culture?" Greg: "yeah, but I didn't care".
Now, we know from esafosfina that Vanmol was sending a variety of products to all ADR riders in 89. Some, but not all, of those products were prohibited substances.
Now would Greg really meticulously have checked which of those products sent to him by Vanmol were on the banned list, and which weren't? I doubt it. Maybe his soigneur Otto had seen jesus, and told him, out of that chocoloate box of supplements, do not touch substances xyz. Possible? yes. Likely? not really.

....jeepers willikers, that just don't add up does it, though it could be the new math...

Cheers
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Lemond throwing a 5-day fundraiser for his discoverer, friend, and coach Eddie B.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/greg-lemonds-fantasy-cycling-camp

A bit of background on Eddie B., introducing East Block doping methods, blood doping juniors, etc., from the late 70s onwards:
http://articles.mcall.com/1985-01-14/sports/2462862_1_blood-doping-international-olympic-committee-rules-american-cyclists
http://articles.mcall.com/1985-01-14/sports/2462862_1_blood-doping-international-olympic-committee-rules-american-cyclists
"Van Haute's father explained that Danny first had learned of the procedure during a trip to Poland with the Junior Team."

yikes...

edit: i see eddie was a pioneer, using the blood of relatives.
 
Jul 22, 2011
1,129
4
10,485
Re: LeMond

Interesting rest day speculation....

One other possibility is that he didn't know exactly what was in his magic iron shot, and never thought it might be EPO.
Otherwise, why draw attention to the shot?

It's quite a coincidence that two tour winners both claim to be clean, and seem to believe it, have both had treatment for blood weaknesses/diseases.

FWIW, I happen to believe both think they are clean, but both have benefited from the authorised medical treatment for their conditions.
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
Re:

sniper said:
This is one interesting post by a guy named Wolfix on some internet forum. Possibly a Lance-associate, but I honestly couldn't care less: s/he's presenting some salient details.
http://www.cyclingforums.com/topic/346048-interesting-lemond-letter-re-20-year-itt-record/page-2
EPO ws introduced in June with sales that month of $17 million. That part is true, but that is not the story.

Let's look at EPO and its history.

EPO was developed years before and not released, but being used in research on kidney patients. The only reason it was not available to the general public before 1989 was because of legal issues.

But here just a little room for thought.....

EPO was researched and used before 1989 in the University of California Research centers which the University of California Davis are part of. .

Erythropoietin, or EPO, is a synthetically produced hormone that promotes red blood cell production. The drug was targeted for people with kidney disease on dialysis, a process that lowers the kidneys' natural production of EPO. Other uses was soon thought of for EPO.
The drug could also be used to reduce the need for blood transfusions during surgery.
...

While this EPO research was going on at the University of California Research Centers for kidney patients , guess who was a prima donna patient in it's critical care unit ?????
[with his kidneys being one of the main problems riddled with pellets}........

Greg Lemond.......

Greg was there in the critical care unit after being shot. He had a tremendous loss of blood and over the next week he had tubes still in his chest. He was in bad shape with his life hanging on by a brake cable. So here he was, in a hospitol that was researching a drug that would help him with the post surgury recovery. A drug used for kidney problems and post surgury recovery. But not released for public sale at the time.

Now, just because Greg was in the home and research labratories of EPO does not mean he was a user.

I'm just stating he was in the same hospitol system, at the same time EPO was being tested on kidney patients. What's important here is it wasn't being tested in Europe, it wasn't being tested anywhere else in the world except in the 3 University of California research centers that Amgen used.. It was in the hospitol where Greg was. . And Greg's kidney problem that arose from being shot is exactly what they were researching EPO for. .

[We know Greg only had one kidney since he was a child, but I'm not sure if this would have affected him in any way in his recovery or during the critical time he was losing blood. ]

Why would they have used EPO on Greg?

Well, one of the early uses of EPO was as follows.......

"EPO is used to accelerate the recovery of hemoglobin to a normal level for an individual who undergoes high-blood-loss surgery. such as critical care after being shot."

Let's jump ahead here to the 1989 Giro......The day before a hilly ITT. Greg was barely hanging on, as he was all season long. But the next day he was flying......

Greg tells us that his remarkable recovery was due to a iron shot during the Giro. Otto told him he was anemic.. Now, Otto was a guy who rubbed sweaty muscles for a living. He held no degree in medicine.But he knew a iron shot was the answer.

We know Greg struggled in 1989. Then bam!!!!!! He was world beater, a totally unstoppable force over the next 4 months. He won a TDF, did the fastest ITT in the history of the sport, and won the World's by sprinting against S Kelly. In one single night, less then 24 hours , he went from the back of the pack to the best rider cycling had.

How could this possible? Let's ask Greg.
"I took a iron supplement that night,"Greg said later. "The next day I felt the improvement. Before that,on the smallest hill, I was gone."

Would a simple iron shot do this? Let's ask the doctors at the research center......

[This following info comes from a document from research at the University of Cal Davis, where Lemond was hospitolized while EPO research and usage was going on.......]

"With use of recombinant erythropoietin (EPO) and intravenous iron, the majority of hemodialysis patients can achieve target hemoglobin concentrations."
These are the documented words of UC Davis research center, not mine.

Hemoglobin concentrations?

Basically, EPO coupled with an iron shot would give someone a tremendous boost if what they were attempting to do required large amounts of oxygen.

Using this info from the EPO researchers, if a cyclist was suffering and using EPO, wouldn't raising your hemoglobin level maybe bring you up to speed overnight? It's my understanding that hemoglobin transports the oxygen to the lungs. That may be important for a professional cyclist. We know he used intravenious iron.

Let's say for the fun of it Greg was intoduced to and was using EPO after his stay at UC Davis. It would not have been introduced to the peloton yet as it was only available in the research centers in California until June 1989. And it would have never been tested for by the UCI.

Now......

Let's go farther with this.

None of this is proof that Greg used EPO. But chances are good he was aware of it in some form or other before any other professsional cyclist. Or possibly a doctor who was involved with Greg during his stay at UC Davis knew of the research going on and the benefits of EPO.

Greg was standing in the center of EPO central. You couldn't get any closer then he was, long before anyone in Europe had an any idea of what it was. So we had a hospitol doing research on EPO with a world class athlete in it's ward. Would there have been a better patient? Then several years later EPO becomes famous for the infamous evil it became in cycling.

Did he use it? Who knows.......

Maybe some research is needed to see what other cyclists or people were/are attched to UC Davis during that time and later become involved in professional sports.
Again, there may be a Lance-Lemond-smear campaign behind it. But that shouldn't dismiss us from looking at the facts, which in this case seem to be interesting enough. Greg being treated in the hospital where EPO research was done.
And in the end the poster is merely suggesting something that seems to have been rumored among large parts of the peloton in the early 90s.
In any case, the claim that Greg only became aware of EPO in 1993 is hilarious at best.



....assuming the preceding is accurate....

.... you can bet that Amgen people were all over that facility baby-sitting their soon to be billion dollar baby....and as we all know Weisel was not only a big part of the Amgen effort but also very heavily involved in cycling....so the chances that Weisel wouldn't have visited that facility would approach zero, and the idea that Weisel wouldn't know that Lemond was being treated there are also pretty close to zero....so the possibility that Lemond and Weisel didn't cross paths in some way in that facility are, uhhh, pretty damn remote....

....so hypothetically if there was a face-to-face what would that meeting go like ...." Hey Greg how's it goin' ?"...."Hey Thom, well pretty good considering but this accident really has my anemia acting up...so what brings you here?" ..."funny you should ask "....again please note that the preceding is just a hypothetical but gosh this is getting real weird ain't it?....

Cheers
 
Status
Not open for further replies.