LeMond II

[thehog]

Unbelievable stuff.

Yes, the man who took down Armstrong. Or do you think that was Walsh

And do you have any idea what irony is? or sarcasm?

You're just angry because Landis calls out Wiggins for being a "hopelessly average climber" - which is an actual fact. You can't deny it, Wiggins wasn't a climber. Then suddenly became a climber.

 

[the sceptic]

Wiggins is just as much of an unrepentant doper as Vino was.

Landis point, which I agree with, is that nothing has changed in cycling and that it's absurd to have one doper celebrated as a hero of clean cycling while the other gets labeled "unrepentant".

Maybe it's time to step away from your collection of sunday times articles and realize that the british media has been running a huge propaganda campaign to make sky look as cleans as possible, and perhaps that's why people who are able to think by themselves get a little annoyed.

Nothing will make me laugh more than Astana dominating sky this year. Please make it happen vino.

 

[gooner]

Yes, the man he took down Armstrong. Or do you think that was Walsh

Because of a whistleblower incentive. Had he got his spot on RadioShack the status quo would have continued and something that he would have been happy to be part of. I bet he wouldn't be opening his mouth about Wiggins now.

You're just angry because Landis calls out Wiggins for being a "hopelessly average climber" - which is an actual fact. You can't deny it, Wiggins wasn't a climber. Then suddenly became a climber.

I'm not a fan of Landis full stop. He was Lance Armstrong with his behaviour. Since when did I deny Wiggins' transformation in 2009. Expressing reservations is a fair discussion, people on here who think they "know" and are only interested in personal vindication while not being in the inner circle of it all, I wouldn't listen to one end of the week to the other. The Wiggins reference was to show his contrasting clear intentional ignorance to Vino's win. Greg is getting hammered for inconsistency to dopers. I already pointed out Kimmage, I look forward to Floyd taking his ire out on him for hanging around dopers in a stand the same day Greg was in a car with Indurain and Merckx. All those Tour finishers there were all celebrating this together. Somehow I don't think we'll be hearing that or the clinic for that manner. As I said before, this has the hallmarks of a choreographed hatchet job based on a personal feeling more than anything to with pointing out something constructive to doping.

I'll put this, a Cav fan, Radcliffe fan, alongside being called British on here in the past. Oh yeah and watching cycling only since 2011.

 

[thehog]

Because of a whistleblower incentive. Had he got his spot on RadioShack the status quo would have continued and something that he would have been happy to be part of. I bet he wouldn't be opening his mouth about Wiggins now.

I'll put this, a Cav fan, Radcliffe fan, alongside being called British on here in the past. Oh yeah and watching cycling only since 2011.

I love how you revise history.

It was Wiggins he opened his mouth on Landis first because Wiggins loved (still loves) Lance. You know that.

I think you have to question Landis credibility because he lied under oath before and the stories that you hear about him drinking and things like that and you know, [making] telephone calls to people I know, threatening them with things, you just think that the guy appears to not all be there. So when you see these kinds of claims in the press you have to question his credibility because its almost like its coming from a mad man, but at the same time maybe that?s all borne out of frustration and things.?

As for whistleblower incentive. Its 2015 now. It started in May 2010. You call that incentive?

You're just upset because Lance got caught and Wiggins couldn't love him more

“I’ve always been a bit of a fan of Lance and have sided on the side of innocent until proven guilty with him. There isn’t an athlete or a cyclist out there that isn’t more tested than he is, certainly since his comeback, he’s probably been the most tested cyclist in the pro peloton and you take that on face value and that he’s never failed a drugs test and until he does he’s clean. That’s how I’ve always had as a stance on Lance.”

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-calls-for-biological-passport-data-to-be-made-public

LOL! Most tested, never tested positive! LOL!

 

[Digger]

Just catching up with this thread.

A few things to respond to on what has been recently said.

On Greg in the car with Indurain and Merckx and Kimmage saying Floyd is great to listen to, Kimmage was in a stand that day with all the previous Tour finishers over the years. It's there for everyone to see at the end of the Rough Ride film. Laughing and joking with guys around him. How many dopers were in that stand? Stephen Roche was just a few rows ahead of him. Indurain and Merckx were there too. I'm not criticising Kimmage as he said himself he was taking his rightful place there, but that is no different to Greg in that car as a multiple Tour winner.

Not just that but the criticism of Greg praising Kelly. Kimmage has done similiar on numerous occasions. Walsh mentions a story about another Irish journalist Tom Humphreys finding it hard to understand why Kimmage and Walsh saw Michelle Smith totally different to Kelly where they said he was a great champion.

Point being, even respected people are hypocritical in some shape or form at various parts of our life. We all are.

As for Landis, he wouldn't have have opened his trap without the whistleblower incentive and it's frankly nauseating that he is put up as the beacon of anti-doping. He got the whistleblower idea years previously from Prentice Steffen. That is Floyd's sole and only intention. Look at this beauty:



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/olympic-shorts-australian-aggression-angers-british

I think Landis' comments about Greg were a pre-planned choreographed hatchet job.

The revisionism in this place is staggering.

Link for the bolded claim that he wouldn't have opened his mouth without the whistleblower option please. I am glad you now know more than Floyd Landis. Considering he had told all, months before the idea of a whistleblower case, this is clearly tripe.

 

[Digger]

Just catching up with this thread.

A few things to respond to on what has been recently said.

On Greg in the car with Indurain and Merckx and Kimmage saying Floyd is great to listen to, Kimmage was in a stand that day with all the previous Tour finishers over the years. It's there for everyone to see at the end of the Rough Ride film. Laughing and joking with guys around him. How many dopers were in that stand? Stephen Roche was just a few rows ahead of him. Indurain and Merckx were there too. I'm not criticising Kimmage as he said himself he was taking his rightful place there, but that is no different to Greg in that car as a multiple Tour winner.

Not just that but the criticism of Greg praising Kelly. Kimmage has done similiar on numerous occasions. Walsh mentions a story about another Irish journalist Tom Humphreys finding it hard to understand why Kimmage and Walsh saw Michelle Smith totally different to Kelly where they said he was a great champion.

Point being, even respected people are hypocritical in some shape or form at various parts of our life. We all are.

As for Landis, he wouldn't have have opened his trap without the whistleblower incentive and it's frankly nauseating that he is put up as the beacon of anti-doping. He got the whistleblower idea years previously from Prentice Steffen. That is Floyd's sole and only intention. Look at this beauty:



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/olympic-shorts-australian-aggression-angers-british

I think Landis' comments about Greg were a pre-planned choreographed hatchet job.

The revisionism in this place is staggering.

Link for the bolded claim that he wouldn't have opened his mouth without the whistleblower option please. I am glad you now know more than Floyd Landis. Considering he had told all, months before the idea of a whistleblower case, this is clearly tripe.

Regarding Landis and Greg - well even if that were the case - would you blame the guy...

And aside from that, you've defended Walsh to the nth degree, and you talk of revisionism.

 

[Digger]

Wiggins is just as much of an unrepentant doper as Vino was.

Landis point, which I agree with, is that nothing has changed in cycling and that it's absurd to have one doper celebrated as a hero of clean cycling while the other gets labeled "unrepentant".

Maybe it's time to step away from your collection of sunday times articles and realize that the british media has been running a huge propaganda campaign to make sky look as cleans as possible, and perhaps that's why people who are able to think by themselves get a little annoyed.

Nothing will make me laugh more than Astana dominating sky this year. Please make it happen vino.

This - what anyone with a brain could tell from landis' comments on Vino is that Vino makes a mockery of the rubbish we have been told about new generation. Most with a brain know it's as bad as ever - so for Vino to win, it's a two fingers to the establishment who are pretending that things are better. The point about Vino - why is it ok to vilify him, unquestionably a doper, and celebrate the guy who came second, who was also highly likely a doper...we can't just sit there and wait for a positive test.

Landis' comments, I reiterate, are meaningful for anyone with a brain who can see that nothing has changed - Vino getting a puncture one km from the line and the second placed rider winning makes no odds - both were probably doped - but Vino winning at least brings the issue more to a head - and that's cycling's only hope. For cycling to prosper it needs dopers who haven't yet been caught. And history has shown us that the establishment will look after the big ones not yet caught.

 

[Digger]

Because of a whistleblower incentive. Had he got his spot on RadioShack the status quo would have continued and something that he would have been happy to be part of. I bet he wouldn't be opening his mouth about Wiggins now.



I'm not a fan of Landis full stop. He was Lance Armstrong with his behaviour. Since when did I deny Wiggins' transformation in 2009. Expressing reservations is a fair discussion, people on here who think they "know" and are only interested in personal vindication while not being in the inner circle of it all, I wouldn't listen to one end of the week to the other. The Wiggins reference was to show his contrasting clear intentional ignorance to Vino's win. Greg is getting hammered for inconsistency to dopers. I already pointed out Kimmage, I look forward to Floyd taking his ire out on him for hanging around dopers in a stand the same day Greg was in a car with Indurain and Merckx. All those Tour finishers there were all celebrating this together. Somehow I don't think we'll be hearing that or the clinic for that manner. As I said before, this has the hallmarks of a choreographed hatchet job based on a personal feeling more than anything to with pointing out something constructive to doping.

I'll put this, a Cav fan, Radcliffe fan, alongside being called British on here in the past. Oh yeah and watching cycling only since 2011.

Do you know what Wiggins said about landis first day? And mIllar for that matter - in 2010/11 - are these the new rules now - he's not allowed respond.

 

[gooner]

Link for the bolded claim that he wouldn't have opened his mouth without the whistleblower option please. I am glad you now know more than Floyd Landis. Considering he had told all, months before the idea of a whistleblower case, this is clearly tripe.

Walsh mentioned a few years back about Prentice Steffen having the idea of a whisteleblower case. I think it was around 2004/2005 if not mistaken.

Feel free to correct any minor details as I have don't have the book currently at hand, but it's all in Cycle of Lies. I think it was Lim told him about Steffen's idea. Floyd initially thought it was a poor idea.

Again, feel free to correct certain details if necessary, but there's no doubt Floyd knew years previously there was potential for a whistleblower case in all this.

Backed into a corner he exercises it.

 

[Digger]

Froome is more palatable to Gooner than Vino it seems - I see no difference between the two of them - he just wasn't unlucky enough to have had Bordry in charge.

 

[thehog]

Walsh mentioned a few years back about Prentice Steffen having the idea of a whisteleblower case. I think it was around 2004/2005 if not mistaken.

Feel free to correct any minor details as I have don't have the book currently at hand, but it's all in Cycle of Lies. I think it was Lim told him about Steffen's idea. Floyd initially thought it was a poor idea.

Again, feel free to correct certain details if necessary, but there's no doubt Floyd knew years previously there was potential for a whistleblower case in all this.

Backed into a corner he exercises it.

Basically what you're saying is:

"I think it was in some book at some point written by Walsh but I can't actually remember. You know the David Walsh guy who writes those books about Sky which are very factual".

Good grief. If you don't know, don't make comment on it. You're just making up stuff to fit you're narrative.

In any case. Landis put his balls on the line and told all. Wrote letters to all the cycling authorities on what played out. You don't think he should have done that?

 

[Digger]

Walsh mentioned a few years back about Prentice Steffen having the idea of a whisteleblower case. I think it was around 2004/2005 if not mistaken.

Feel free to correct any minor details as I have don't have the book currently at hand, but it's all in Cycle of Lies. I think it was Lim told him about Steffen's idea. Floyd initially thought it was a poor idea.

Again, feel free to correct certain details if necessary, but there's no doubt Floyd knew years previously there was potential for a whistleblower case in all this.

Backed into a corner he exercises it.

Macur -she never spoke to landis for that book...got other 'facts' (been covered multiple times) completely wrong...used lim for info who denies ever being landis' doping courier, yet paperwork shows the opposite -
then we have prentice being quoted by lim about landis' mental health from when he was a rider - then prentice later denies ever saying this...and you are using this book as evidence.

And finally you say 'there is no doubt' yet you have nothing to back it up...

 

[gooner]

Do you know what Wiggins said about landis first day? And mIllar for that matter - in 2010/11 - are these the new rules now - he's not allowed respond.

That's not what's being discussed. Since Greg gets hammered, how is it Landis responded to two performances differently in the space of a month. One where he was happy to express his delight at an unrepentant so and so who should be out of the sport.

Anyway mentioning Wiggins' response and his support for Lance, that's the only reason why he refers to Wiggins in his interview. It's entirely personal and that's fair enough but don't dress it up as constructive anti-doping talk which he's also trying to get across on Greg. All that with his Vino support for his Olympics win and one where he would have been delighted to ride for Lance and Johan upon his return.

That's trying to pull the wool over people's eyes.

Landis is only interested in all this through his own experience and the people interlinked with his career and who have spoken out against him.

Hence why he goes at Wiggins but loves Vino. Just because Vino didn't react like Wiggins and instead stayed silent, doesn't mean it's a jumping for joy moment when he wins the Olympics.

Motives are clear to see and it's certainly not genuine ones for the sport in general going forward.

Imagine Greg said those comments about Vino. In-fact he's interviewed on his Eurosport programme after a Tour stage and gets slaughtered for it. No selectiveness there though.

 

[thehog]

Macur -she never spoke to landis for that book...got other 'facts' (been covered multiple times) completely wrong...used lim for info who denies ever being landis' doping courier, yet paperwork shows the opposite -
then we have prentice being quoted by lim about landis' mental health from when he was a rider - then prentice later denies ever saying this...and you are using this book as evidence.

And finally you say 'there is no doubt' yet you have nothing to back it up...

So Gooner doesn't even know where he read it or heard but thinks it Walsh and hasn't got the information. It turns out to be Macur who didn't even speak to Landis.

Well, that certainly is the basis for facts! Good grief.

 

[gooner]

So Gooner doesn't even know where he read it or heard but thinks it Walsh and hasn't got the information. It turns out to be Macur who didn't even speak to Landis.

Well, that certainly is the basis for facts! Good grief.

I didn't say I think Walsh said it, I know Walsh mentioned it about Prentice Steffen wanting to initiate a whistleblower case in that period.

I read Cycle of Lies nearly a year ago when it was first published. It's definetely there in print that Landis knew about Steffen's intentions and was approached to get involved.

You can choose to ignore it and simply saying Macur didn't speak with Floyd doesn't mean it's untrue.

 

[D-Queued]

My mistake, I was wrong.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/m...as-witnesses-exposed-doping-article-1.2095542



The Andreu subpoena requests information/documents on LeMond. Which might be the leaking of the tape.

Classic Lance, then.

Presumably, even in a fishing expedition there would have be some degree of relevance. The hospital incident and the McIlvain recording is, arguably, irrelevant to the Qui Tam proceeding. Lance's wins were stripped without reference to the hospital incident.

Wouldn't it be wonderful, though if the recording were to be accepted as evidence, and if (!) McIlvain were then to recant on her original deposition. That alone would almost certainly seal the deal for SCA and the Feds.

Anyhow, no surprise, the subpoena thus appears targeted at trying to stop Betsy from responding to the hounding press every time Lance does something stupid. Which ultimately means that Betsy may need a press agent herself.

Dave.

 

[gooner]

Almost forgot, having read Emma's book, she mentions about being approached to be a part of Steffen's whistleblower case.

 

[the sceptic]

So Gooner doesn't even know where he read it or heard but thinks it Walsh and hasn't got the information. It turns out to be Macur who didn't even speak to Landis.

Well, that certainly is the basis for facts! Good grief.

I seem to remember Gooner said Horner was doping even though he couldn't come up with any evidence to support his theory, so I do think it's quite obvious he has a soft spot for everything sky and british, which is fine by me, but I don't take him seriously when he starts lecturing people about being anti doping.

 

[thehog]

I seem to remember Gooner said Horner was doping even though he couldn't come up with any evidence to support his theory, so I do think it's quite obvious he has a soft spot for everything sky and british, which is fine by me, but I don't take him seriously when he starts lecturing people about being anti doping.

Likewise, when I saw his Radcliffe post I thought the same. And he keeps quoting Walsh which is super scary.

 

[gooner]

I seem to remember Gooner said Horner was doping even thoughhe couldn't come up with any evidence to support his theory,

Yeah, sure thing bud.

Likewise, when I saw his Radcliffe post I thought the same. And he keeps quoting Walsh which is super scary.

Stop making this personal. Address my post if you want about the whistleblower case.

I have Emma's book at hand now. Walsh and Lemond were behind the Steffen one.

Along with what has been said in Macur's book, Floyd knew all about that incentive long before coming clean.

 

[Digger]

Yeah, sure thing bud.



Stop making this personal. Address my post if you want about the whistleblower case.

I have Emma's book at hand now. Walsh and Lemond were behind the Steffen one.

Along with what has been said in Macur's book, Floyd knew all about that incentive long before coming clean.

he also knew he would have a large chance of facing prison - don't let that fact dissuade you though.

Macur's book

 

[thehog]

Along with what has been said in Macur's book, Floyd knew all about that incentive long before coming clean.

Yes, because starting a 5+ year civil suit with the prospect of losing is an "incentive" and costs nothing to do...

Sometimes I wonder if you actually think about what you write.

 

[thehog]

he also knew he would have a large chance of facing prison - don't let that fact dissuade you though.

Macur's book

Its a wonder Gooner doesn't get stuck into David Millar who had plenty of "incentive" paid to him being a consultant on the Lance movie. Even after he criticized Landis for coming clean.

Bot logic gone mad.

 

[MarkvW]

he also knew he would have a large chance of facing prison - don't let that fact dissuade you though.

Macur's book

Pure pro-Landis propaganda. Floyd never realistically faced prison. Even after defrauding people of thousands of dollars, all he got was diversion. And look at Hincapie and Hamilton-Armstrong's other Lieutenants. What prison did they face--nothing.

Stop the hypocrisy, I say!

 

[gooner]

Yes, because starting a 5+ year civil suit with the prospect of losing is an "incentive" and costs nothing to do...

Sometimes I wonder if you actually think about what you write.

Its a wonder Gooner doesn't get stuck into David Millar who had plenty of "incentive" paid to him being a consultant on the Lance movie. Even after he criticized Landis for coming clean.

Bot logic gone mad.

You just won't address the point about Floyd knowing about this years previously with Steffen.

You wrongfully accuse me of making things up with regards to this and deliberately try to make this thread all about me.

The personal jibes are telling on the back on what I'm saying.

It's clear as day you and Digger didn't have a clue about Steffen's whistleblower idea. A bit of a hint: normally when accusing someone of lying it's usually a good idea to have read up on something and have the info at hand. Like myself who has taken the trouble to read about this in Macur's and Emma's book.

I think people trying to paint Greg as the villain and Floyd with his light and shining armour, have brass necks considering his past shenanigans.

I sometimes wonder why I engage in here. The revisionists at play. None more so than yourself and Digger who were caught bang to rights of having entirely differing opinions on the Greg/Mcillvain tape a few years back on here. I don't forget either yourself deleting the post in question to hide your flip flopping on this.