LeMond II

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

I asked this before but since all the xperts have not answered I wanted to ask again.

Does anyone know what happened to both of Greg's Arms when he was shot in the side and backside? Those pictures at the hospital and after he has a cast on each arm.

Not sure. He was in the US at the time because he was recovering from a broken wrist after a crash. Maybe that's one. I think he received pellets in at least one of his arms too, but I don't think it requires a cast ? Unless the pellet broke a bone but it seems far fetched. Bullets do that, but pellets ?

Here's an interview of him talking about the shooting. He talks about the cast briefly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgRpP_Sitk0

Thanks NL_LeMondfans and WildspokeJoe for the info.

Interesting that he had casts on each arm. I was just curious.

That interview is a little strange considering the person who interviewed him. The appendectomy story was awesome.

**Geek Alert*** I just pulled up the coverage from 1987 Tour Coverage (CBS) and it shows LeMond leaving the hospital. I think his left arm is broken but it looks like the right arm is bandaged possibly to protect the IV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2D_cKdOTIc

Oh that music.

Yeah it might have been the IV. back in the day I had an operation and was in the hospital for 1 week. Both my arms were swollen like crazy from the IV and they had to switch arms as each one would get huge.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

Or maybe Ed Burke and Eddie B. started looking into doping because no rider matched Greg's performances, for that matter !

Couple of things:
1. Borysewicz was Polish. He was contracted by Mike Fraysse for one reason only: to implement the methods being used in East Germany and Russia at the time, i.e. ruthless blood doping and other forms of doping, starting at junior level.

2. He doped juniors, brought junior US teams to Poland to introduce them to blood doping. He doped u23 cyclists with the blood of relatives. It's all documented, articles in the NY Times in the 80s, everywhere. So Lemond knew. And after the 1984 scandal, Eddie continued to dope riders and teams, including Chris Carmichael's first pro-team, and he credits himself for having 'discovered' Lance.
All that doesn't mean he doped Greg. But tell me one thing: why the **** does Greg throw a fundraiser for that criminal doper/enabler in 2003? That just doesn't square at all with the idea that Lemond refused the methods doubtlessly offered to him by Eddie B. and Burke.

No idea. Maybe for the same reason he can shake hands with Indurain today, because he thinks people are not necessarily bad even if what they did at one point was bad.

If all this is true, of course. I genuinely don't remember the specifics about this guy Eddie B.

BTW my comment was merely a joke, trying to demonstrate interpretations are just what they are. Interpretations. They can go either way.

 

[Race Radio]

Re: Re:

At least it helps understanding the 90s rumor in the peloton that Greg was one of the first epo users if not the first.
(The PDM link is also interesting in this regard.)

Looking forward to you supplying some evidence for this rumor.

Most can see that Greg was faster in 86 then he was in 89/90. So Greg took EPO so he could ride slower then he did 5 years prior?

 

[Race Radio]

Re: Re:

2. He doped juniors, brought junior US teams to Poland to introduce them to blood doping. He doped u23 cyclists with the blood of relatives. It's all documented, articles in the NY Times in the 80s, everywhere.

It should be very easy for you to prove this if it was "Everywhere"

The USOC investigation suspended Eddie because he show a lack of institutional control. He was not aware, nor did he participate in, the blood doping. Ed Burke and Dr. Falsetti ran the program.

Not sure why you are inventing things.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

2. He doped juniors, brought junior US teams to Poland to introduce them to blood doping. He doped u23 cyclists with the blood of relatives. It's all documented, articles in the NY Times in the 80s, everywhere.

It should be very easy for you to prove this if it was "Everywhere"

The USOC investigation suspended Eddie because he show a lack of institutional control. He was not aware, nor did he participate in, the blood doping. Ed Burke and Dr. Falsetti ran the program.

Not sure why you are inventing things.

....inventing things eh....well that is a mite softer that your earlier reference ( in a post you have since wisely deleted ) to sniper as being either a troll or stupid....but lets reach into that "Everything" bag and see what we can find shall we...

"Grewal, who passed up transfusions, said that Borysewicz had been primarily responsible for them. Borysewicz said he merely had told his cyclists that the transfusions were not illegal and would be helpful in increasing their stamina."

....and....

"Grewal's claim that Borysewicz was responsible was supported by Michael Fatka of the Raleigh Cycle Co., a leading sponsor of cycling races, as well as an official of the Coors International Bicycling event..."

....from... http://articles.latimes.com/1985-01-15/sports/sp-7500_1_transfusions

....to be fair these are part of a longish "he said she said saga" that sees all sides slagging everyone else trying to escape blame for a real class A mess...the bottom line Eddie gets his wrist slapped lightly, the US gets to keep its medals, USCF goes thru a quick rinse/wash cycle to whitewash its reputation, and Eddie rides off into the sunset on the Lance/Weisel train....

Cheers

 

[Race Radio]

Re:

Greg being treated in the hospital where EPO research was done.

Do you have something to support this claim because none of this passes the smell test

"University of California Research Centers for kidney patient" appears to be completely invented name

This claim is also nonsense.

 it wasn't being tested in Europe, it wasn't being tested anywhere else in the world except in the 3 University of California research centers that Amgen used.. It was in the hospitol where Greg was.

In fact Amgen's own cooperate history says they used research universities near their headquarters outside of LA

It began operations in 1981 in Thousand Oaks, California, in close proximity to thriving research centers at three nearby universities, among them the University of California–Los Angeles (UCLA) and the California Institute of Technology

No mention of Davis. These universities are 7 hour drive from Davis. CalTech is not part of the UC system.

"With use of recombinant erythropoietin (EPO) and intravenous iron, the majority of hemodialysis patients can achieve target hemoglobin concentrations."

These are the documented words of UC Davis research center, not mine.

Nope, that quote was lifted from this research paper written in 2006, close to 20 years after Greg was shot
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16377397
None of the researchers are from UC Davis

Intravenous iron is indeed used in conjunction with EPO, but this research into this practice did not start until 1997
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9266922
And did not become commonplace until 2000.

Did Greg get access to a time machine so he and Otto could jump a decade in the future so he could use the EPO he got from a hospital that he drove 7 hours to get to......while recovering from being shot?

Next time you should include space aliens. At least then we would know you are joking

 

[Race Radio]

Re: Re:

....to be fair these are part of a longish "he said she said saga" that sees all sides slagging everyone else trying to escape blame for a real class A mess.

Yup. And in the end it was shown that Eddie was not involved. All of the riders involved in it said he was not involved.

Not saying that Eddie was some angel but this is not true or documented

He doped juniors, brought junior US teams to Poland to introduce them to blood doping. He doped u23 cyclists with the blood of relatives. It's all documented,

Regardless Eddie had very little to do with Greg, who turned Pro and moved to Europe at the end of the 1980 season. For many years they hardly spoke but Lance and Weisel burning both of them reconnected them.

 

[Tonton]

Re: LeMond

I'm on the record for questionning Lemond's motives, contradictions, ego, which BTW is needed to succeed. A lot of champions are doushbags. When it comes to winning, they'll stop at nothing. Almost nothing in his case. Champions are not nice, as a rule. Hinault, Longo, Connors, McEnroe, Woods anyone?

Lemond didn't dope. Let's look at facts. Not fiction.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

Greg being treated in the hospital where EPO research was done.

Do you have something to support this claim because none of this passes the smell test

"University of California Research Centers for kidney patient" appears to be completely invented name

This claim is also nonsense.

 it wasn't being tested in Europe, it wasn't being tested anywhere else in the world except in the 3 University of California research centers that Amgen used.. It was in the hospitol where Greg was.

In fact Amgen's own cooperate history says they used research universities near their headquarters outside of LA

It began operations in 1981 in Thousand Oaks, California, in close proximity to thriving research centers at three nearby universities, among them the University of California–Los Angeles (UCLA) and the California Institute of Technology

No mention of Davis. These universities are 7 hour drive from Davis. CalTech is not part of the UC system.

"With use of recombinant erythropoietin (EPO) and intravenous iron, the majority of hemodialysis patients can achieve target hemoglobin concentrations."

These are the documented words of UC Davis research center, not mine.

Nope, that quote was lifted from this research paper written in 2006, close to 20 years after Greg was shot
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16377397
None of the researchers are from UC Davis

Intravenous iron is indeed used in conjunction with EPO, but this research into this practice did not start until 1997
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9266922
And did not become commonplace until 2000.

Did Greg get access to a time machine so he and Otto could jump a decade in the future so he could use the EPO he got from a hospital that he drove 7 hours to get to......while recovering from being shot?

Next time you should include space aliens. At least then we would know you are joking

....if you are using those studies to imply that the medical profession did not have any idea about the relationship between the production of hemoglobin and iron levels you are dead wrong....those studies are to map out the most efficient ways to use EPO in conjunction with intravenous iron not to discover anything especially new...read,the relationship was known in a gross way and used so extensively that even a soigneur could say, "cure" anemia with an injection of "iron"...

....just curious, did you actually read the studies or just scan the précis....

Cheers

 

[Race Radio]

Re: Re:

....if you are using those studies to imply that the medical profession did not have any idea about the relationship between the production of hemoglobin and iron levels you are dead wrong....those studies are to map out the most efficient ways to use EPO in conjunction with intravenous iron not to discover anything new...read,the relationship was known in a gross way so that even a soigneur could say "cure" anemia with an injection of "iron"...

My point is pretty clear, not sure why you cant understand. The post that Sniper was using as "Evidence" was filled with nonsense. I showed multiple examples of that

My point about iron and EPO is also clear. It was not until EPO had been on the market for several years that doctors and researchers realized it was best used with Iron. If you are interested in more info check here

http://sickle.bwh.harvard.edu/iron_epo.html

This was the first indication that erythropoietin used in high doses could drive red cell production more rapidly than iron could be delivered to the bone marrow even in subjects with adequate iron stores (Hotta, et al. 1991).

A study by Rutherford and colleagues in 1994 dramatically demonstrated the interplay between iron and erythropoietin (Rutherford, et al. 1994

Otto was years ahead of the curve

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

....if you are using those studies to imply that the medical profession did not have any idea about the relationship between the production of hemoglobin and iron levels you are dead wrong....those studies are to map out the most efficient ways to use EPO in conjunction with intravenous iron not to discover anything new...read,the relationship was known in a gross way so that even a soigneur could say "cure" anemia with an injection of "iron"...

My point is pretty clear, not sure why you cant understand. The post that Sniper was using as "Evidence" was filled with nonsense. I showed multiple exampled of that

My point about iron and EPO is also clear. It was not until EPO had been on the market for several years that doctors and researchers realized it was best used with Iron. If you are interested in more info check here

http://sickle.bwh.harvard.edu/iron_epo.html

This was the first indication that erythropoietin used in high doses could drive red cell production more rapidly than iron could be delivered to the bone marrow even in subjects with adequate iron stores (Hotta, et al. 1991).

A study by Rutherford and colleagues in 1994 dramatically demonstrated the interplay between iron and erythropoietin (Rutherford, et al. 1994

Otto was years ahead of the curve

....from the cited study....

"Evidence of the interplay between iron and erythropoietin has existed for a number of years. For instance, subjects who needed surgery for GI bleeding but refused transfusion because of religious beliefs sometimes developed extremely low hematocrits due to very severe iron deficiency. Replacement of iron by intravenous infusion dramatically increased blood cell production. In some reports, hemoglobins rose from 3 g/dl to 9 g/dl over the course of 14 days (Dudrick, et al,. 1985). These studies were performed before plasma erythropoietin levels could be determined. However, we can extrapolate from current data that the subjects had extremely high erythropoietin levels. The only block to new red cell production was their iron deficiency. When the two components iron and erythropoietin are brought together, bone marrow activity surges tremendously."

....do note the date of the Dudrick study....so....published in 1985 and would be reasonable to assume started somewhere in 83....which kinda messes up your timeline a bit don't it?....sorry but it was fairly common knowledge just not fine tuned very well...

Cheers

 

[Race Radio]

Re: Re:

Replacement of iron by intravenous infusion dramatically increased blood cell production. I

Do you really think Otto was reading those studies? really?

Again, the claim was that EPO is more effective when used in conjunction with Iron. This is true, but when was the first indication of that?

This was the first indication that erythropoietin used in high doses could drive red cell production more rapidly than iron could be delivered to the bone marrow even in subjects with adequate iron stores (Hotta, et al. 1991).

Kinda messes with your timeline doesn't it?

Maybe the space aliens who gave Greg the EPO also gave Otto a time machine? Do you think Greg got EPO during it's research phase because he went to a hospital in the same state as Amgen? Do you think the LeMond of 1990 was anything close to the LeMond of 1986?

 

[Race Radio]

Re: LeMond

The funny thing about Greg getting an Iron ejection is how the real story lay dormant for over a decade before Armstrong smear campaign relaunched it

The truth is the reporter was not in the room. Greg came down to the lobby after getting injected. He told the reporter about the injection by choice. He told him how uncomfortable it made him. How he hated what needles represented and had always stayed clear of that side of the sport.

Funny how some can twist a story about Greg not being comfortable with needles and what they represented into "Evidence" that he doped.

No wonder the head guy at Public Strategies apologized for his role in the fiasco

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/31/i-pushed-the-lance-armstrong-lie-an-open-letter-to-greg-lemond.html

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

Replacement of iron by intravenous infusion dramatically increased blood cell production. I

Do you really think Otto was reading those studies? really?

Again, the claim was that EPO is more effective when used in conjunction with Iron. This is true, but when was the first indication of that?

This was the first indication that erythropoietin used in high doses could drive red cell production more rapidly than iron could be delivered to the bone marrow even in subjects with adequate iron stores (Hotta, et al. 1991).

Kinda messes with your timeline doesn't it?

Maybe the space aliens who gave Greg the EPO also gave Otto a time machine? Do you think Greg got EPO during it's research phase because he went to a hospital in the same state as Amgen? Do you think the LeMond of 1990 was anything close to the LeMond of 1986?

....so the Hotta study would have started realistically in say 89....and do remember studies are usually a response to a perceived problem....so it would indicate that there is a very good possibility that the relationship btwn erythropoietin and iron was known just about from the get go, even possibly at the clinical trials stage ( because the problem had to identified somewhere and was the only place available )....

....and yeah I'm pretty good with that timeline but it does kinda mess up some of the stuff you were implying up thread don't it...

Cheers

 

[Irondan]

Wow! This got out of control really fast.

The tit for tat ends right now. Please pull it together and get back on topic.

Any comments that are off topic or insulting will be deleted.

Cheers!

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

No idea. Maybe for the same reason he can shake hands with Indurain today, because he thinks people are not necessarily bad even if what they did at one point was bad.

that's a fair point.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Looking forward to you supplying some evidence for this rumor.

Evidence that the rumor existed/circulated or evidence that the rumor is true? Two different things, i can't answer not knowing which of the two you mean.

 

[joe_papp]

Re: LeMond

Interesting rest day speculation....

One other possibility is that he didn't know exactly what was in his magic iron shot, and never thought it might be EPO.
Otherwise, why draw attention to the shot?

Exactly what I was thinking : why on earth the need to tell anyone he had iron shots if it was something else ? Why not keep quiet about it ?

"Hey, guys, I just had EP... er... Iron just popped up my *** ! I'm cool now, thank you very much !"

I mean, at the time, nobody's asking, right ?

gah. even a blind man could tell you the difference b/w receiving an iron injection and receiving EPO. Firstly they're not normally administered via the same route (IM vs. SC in that period; or IV vs. SC); secondly, the liquid volume is very different; thirdly, the localized sensations - and the short term systemic sensations - from an iron injection are totally a different world compared to EPO. And doping w/ EPO requires an initial cycle of four weeks of treatment, though expect it to take up to 6 weeks to record significant improvement in power output.

Even treatment w/ iron via IV (IM is NOT recommended anymore) might still see you go for a week before you really started feeling better. And weeks thereafter to raise hemoglobin to "non-anemic" range.

Why are some people still trying to suggest that LeMond used EPO? This is ***. Whatever injection LeMond got before the Giro ITT (assuming he got one), it could just as easily have caused a placebo effect, or been an actual doping agent like a glucocorticoid (which could improve performance in the following day's event).

And my point about bringing up the conversation b/w Eddie B. and Fraysse was the simple fact that if they're discussing the riders over the years who've doped, and Eddie B. mentions that doping would've been wasted on LeMond b/c of the huge V02 and recovery capability that he was equipped w/ naturally, well christ, that's a pretty strong endorsement of his cleanliness. Remember, they're talking about the cyclists that have been doped/doping and recollecting LeMond as such a natural talent as to make their relatively boring doping program not worth the hassle.

And if LeMond got an injection of Kenacort before a Giro stage, so what? Glucocorticoid is not an oxygen vector doping substance...

 

[sniper]

Re: LeMond

The funny thing about Greg getting an Iron ejection is how the real story lay dormant for over a decade before Armstrong smear campaign relaunched it

The truth is the reporter was not in the room. Greg came down to the lobby after getting injected. He told the reporter about the injection by choice. He told him how uncomfortable it made him. How he hated what needles represented and had always stayed clear of that side of the sport.

Funny how some can twist a story about Greg not being comfortable with needles and what they represented into "Evidence" that he doped.

No wonder the head guy at Public Strategies apologized for his role in the fiasco

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/31/i-pushed-the-lance-armstrong-lie-an-open-letter-to-greg-lemond.html

The story - or better: our treatment of it - isn't and shouldn't be much different from Froome's bilharzia story. What is being twisted? He put the story out there, and it appears to be full of holes.
Greg is needle adverse yet he's capable of drawing a syringe of his own blood and properly store it for testing. Throws a five-day fundraiser festival for the guy who introduced needles into the American cycling scene.
From where I'm standing, things don't add up.
Fair enough, if you say the 'needle adverse' story is blown out of proportions, I see where you're coming from. But even if he's not needle adverse: where did he learn to draw and store his own blood; why is he throwing fundraisers for Eddie B?

As for "The truth"...I think it's odd you're taking Greg and his direct associates as a source of what you claim to be the truth. I saw others (e.g. GJB123) doing the same thing. Just reproducing Greg's stories uncritically. Froome/Sky/Lance/USPS are not getting similar treatment, and rightly so.

That said, it's good you chimed in, and I'm happy to be corrected on certain issues.

 

[sniper]

Re: LeMond

And my point about bringing up the conversation b/w Eddie B. and Fraysse was the simple fact that if they're discussing the riders over the years who've doped, and Eddie B. mentions that doping would've been wasted on LeMond b/c of the huge V02 and recovery capability that he was equipped w/ naturally, well christ, that's a pretty strong endorsement of his cleanliness. Remember, they're talking about the cyclists that have been doped/doping and recollecting LeMond as such a natural talent as to make their relatively boring doping program not worth the hassle.

cheers, very fair point if indeed that's what they said.
you said you 'overheard' them talking about Lemond like that.
when was that?

I disagree in any case that their program was relatively boring.
It's the program that trickled into Carmichael's progrram which 'produced' Lance, Motorola, USPS.
It's the program that won them a good number of Olympic medals in 1984.
And what about Eric Heiden? Clean? lol...He too emerged from their 'boring' program.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

It should be very easy for you to prove this if it was "Everywhere"

The USOC investigation suspended Eddie because he show a lack of institutional control. He was not aware, nor did he participate in, the blood doping. Ed Burke and Dr. Falsetti ran the program.

Not sure why you are inventing things.

Fraysse contracted Eddie for one reason, and one reason alone.
To bridge the gap with the communist countries. And that gap wasn't about bringing your own pillow or not.

I didn't say "Everywhere", I said "everywhere".
I don't have any US newspaper archives for the 80s here, but if it's published in the NY Times, I think that's good enough to make my point that the news should have reached Greg, Eddie's pupil after all.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Not sure why you are inventing things.

Didn't Eddie B. organize trips to Poland where US juniors learned about blood doping?
Not sure why the Van Haute family are inventing things.
Imagine that. Blooddoping in the East. What an outrageous hypothesis.

 

[joe_papp]

Re: Re:

Or maybe Ed Burke and Eddie B. started looking into doping because no rider matched Greg's performances, for that matter !

Couple of things:
1. Borysewicz was Polish. He was contracted by Mike Fraysse for one reason only: to implement the methods being used in East Germany and Russia at the time, i.e. ruthless blood doping and other forms of doping, starting at junior level...

This is totally false and I suggest you retract this libelous and defamatory statement immediately. You're not doing your credibility much good by posting outright fabrications.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

2. He doped juniors, brought junior US teams to Poland to introduce them to blood doping. He doped u23 cyclists with the blood of relatives. It's all documented, articles in the NY Times in the 80s, everywhere.

It should be very easy for you to prove this if it was "Everywhere"

The USOC investigation suspended Eddie because he show a lack of institutional control. He was not aware, nor did he participate in, the blood doping. Ed Burke and Dr. Falsetti ran the program.

Not sure why you are inventing things.

LOL! I've asked a few times myself, but got the "this is new material, and you never know...blah blah blah" response.

As relates to your second point, it's because folks just do not want to accept that a clean rider won the tour. They want to smear everyone, in hopes of finding some sort of truth or fact, that way they can go back and say "see I told you so". They can then lump everyone into the same conversation.

He's not saying he(LeMond) doped, yet turns around and says he doped...which is what I said to him some pages back, but he denied. I then asked him for any kind of proof, and crickets chirp.

Then someone went as far as to ask for proof that Wonderboy had offered up a hefty sum of $$$ to ANYONE who would say LeMond doped too, and no one took the bait.

 

[sniper]

Chill out Joe. That's merely what I read on the internet. I'll rephrase:

"The federation had gained money for coaching and support of athletes from President Jimmy Carter's inquiry into the domination in sport by what were perceived to be state-sponsored amateurs from communist countries. Fraysee spoke to Borysewicz about bringing his experience of Polish sports schools." (wikipedia)