LeMond II

[joe_papp]

Re: Re:

2. ...But tell me one thing: why the **** does Greg throw a fundraiser for that criminal doper/enabler in 2003? That just doesn't square at all with the idea that Lemond refused the methods doubtlessly offered to him by Eddie B. and Burke.

Because Eddie was a friend of LeMond's (and hundreds of others who donated), and Eddie's fcking house burned down and he lost all of his possessions and did not have sufficient insurance or savings to rebuild!

Jesus Christ...are you trying to make your comments this scummy?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Because Eddie was a friend of LeMond's (and hundreds of others who donated), and Eddie's fcking house burned down and he lost all of his possessions and did not have sufficient insurance or savings to rebuild!

Jesus Christ...are you trying to make your comments this scummy?

Joe, can we keep it amicable?

What's your view on Eric Heiden?

 

[joe_papp]

Re: LeMond

cheers, very fair point if indeed that's what they said.
you said you 'overheard' them talking about Lemond like that.
when was that?

early-2000s, sitting in front of Mike's fireplace drinking cognac.

I only received a half-ration, but still at least wasn't shoo'ed-away...

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Ed Burke and Dr. Falsetti ran the program.

As you'll understand, I don't put much value to USOC's conclusions in this context. That's the fox guarding the hen house. Do we trust the Spanish OC when they conclude Fuentes wasn't doping their athletes?

Anyway, Ed Burke is a guy who just adds massively to the clouds hanging over Lemond's early carreer.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

[It's all documented, articles in the NY Times in the 80s, everywhere.

Then you should have no problem posting those documents?

"Grewal, who passed up transfusions, said that Borysewicz had been primarily responsible for them. Borysewicz said he merely had told his cyclists that the transfusions were not illegal and would be helpful in increasing their stamina."

Grewal IS A LIAR AND admitted doper, so ANYTHING he says is pretty much BS. He was whining on FB months back about how he was so bitter, and tried blaming a bunch of folks for his downfall. I would say anything he says as being even remotely credible, as BS, much as i would Carmichael, Ochowicz, Wonderboy, etc. Grewal is bitter, and has been known to be a d&^% to fans.

"Grewal's claim that Borysewicz was responsible was supported by Michael Fatka of the Raleigh Cycle Co., a leading sponsor of cycling races, as well as an official of the Coors International Bicycling event..."

Again, Grewal is full of ***. I called him out a few times on FB about some stuff months back, and he conveniently disappeared when I pressed him on things.

I think Grewal even tried to claim that Andy Hampsten and Davis Phinney doped, yet when asked by SEVERAL people about it, he "forgot what he said" or "didn't mean to insinuate" anything. When someone mentioned to him that Hampsten defended LeMond as "clean", Grewal claimed some BS about it iirc.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

It should be very easy for you to prove this if it was "Everywhere"


I didn't say "Everywhere", I said "everywhere".
I don't have any US newspaper archives for the 80s here, but if it's published in the NY Times, I think that's good enough to make my point that the news should have reached Greg, Eddie's pupil after all.

If it's indeed "posted everywhere", then just give us some links, so we can look it up ourselves, or can you not provide those either?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

2. ...But tell me one thing: why the **** does Greg throw a fundraiser for that criminal doper/enabler in 2003? That just doesn't square at all with the idea that Lemond refused the methods doubtlessly offered to him by Eddie B. and Burke.

Because Eddie was a friend of LeMond's (and hundreds of others who donated), and Eddie's fcking house burned down and he lost all of his possessions and did not have sufficient insurance or savings to rebuild!

Jesus Christ...are you trying to make your comments this scummy?

LOL, That would be a YES. He continues to "reach for something" that just isn't there.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

snipped for brevity....
Cheers

cheers indeed, good stuff.
You're right, it's a he-said-she-said thing.
Regardless, it's odd (to say the least) that RR uncritically draws on USOC when discussing Eddie B.
It's like saying Fuentes didn't dope the Spanish soccer team, because the Spanish OC investigated and came to the conclusion all is fine...
UCI investigating Zorzoli.
Sky investigating Henao.
No problem I guess for RR.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: LeMond

sniper wrote:
At least it helps understanding the 90s rumor in the peloton that Greg was one of the first epo users if not the first.
(The PDM link is also interesting in this regard.)

How so? Greg quit PDM shortly after the ink was dry on the contract, due to not trusting the team, and hearing that some of their riders had been doping. IIRC, he also turned down a nice sized contract from 7-11 at the time, to ride with them, also a team that doped.("Wheelmen" mentions how Ochowicz was doping some/most of the team, LeMond refused to sign there because of it).

Please post what you have that refutes that?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

snipped for brevity....
Cheers

cheers indeed, good stuff.
You're right, it's a he-said-she-said thing.
Regardless, it's odd (to say the least) that RR uncritically draws on USOC when discussing Eddie B.
It's like saying Fuentes didn't dope the Spanish soccer team, because the Spanish OC investigated and came to the conclusion all is fine...
UCI investigating Zorzoli.
Sky investigating Henao.
No problem I guess for RR.

So that's a NO then on you posting those clippings/info that you claimed were "posted everywhere"?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Replacement of iron by intravenous infusion dramatically increased blood cell production. I

Do you really think Otto was reading those studies? really?

Again, the claim was that EPO is more effective when used in conjunction with Iron. This is true, but when was the first indication of that?

This was the first indication that erythropoietin used in high doses could drive red cell production more rapidly than iron could be delivered to the bone marrow even in subjects with adequate iron stores (Hotta, et al. 1991).

Kinda messes with your timeline doesn't it?

Maybe the space aliens who gave Greg the EPO also gave Otto a time machine? Do you think Greg got EPO during it's research phase because he went to a hospital in the same state as Amgen? Do you think the LeMond of 1990 was anything close to the LeMond of 1986?

If a study that appears in 1991 says "this was the first indication" you conclude it was in 1991...mkay.
you're all over the place in this discussion.
You're not putting forward bad arguments at all, it's more about the way you present them (USOC "shows" this and that, as if they're not a biased party, lol..Study x "shows" y), without the slightest bit of scepticism. Odd.
Also, I didn't speak of "evidence" anywhere. Strawman. In fact I've been careful to avoid the word, because I knew you and others would jump on it.
And no, Blutto didn't say Otto was reading those studies. It's Lemond's claim that Otto diagnosed his anemia, not Blutto's.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

You're not putting forward bad arguments at all, it's more about the way you present them (USOC "shows" this and that, as if they're not a biased party, lol..Study x "shows" y), without the slightest bit of scepticism. Odd.

With all due respect, you choose to give credit to people who accredit your theories too, mostly. For example this quote that you edited at least 3 times, which is again speculation upon... more speculation :
"Anyway, Ed Burke is a guy who just adds massively to the clouds hanging over Lemond's early carreer."

It's Lemond's claim that Otto diagnosed his anemia, not Blutto's.

You're taking this so seriously... "Diagnosed" is a strong word for someone looking at you and saying : "You look pale, hermano..." which is probably how it happened.

 

[Race Radio]

Re: Re:

Looking forward to you supplying some evidence for this rumor.

Evidence that the rumor existed/circulated or evidence that the rumor is true? Two different things, i can't answer not knowing which of the two you mean.

In other words you made it up

Thanks for confirming

 

[Race Radio]

Re: Re:

I didn't say "Everywhere", I said "everywhere".
.

You are being too obvious. Inventing nonsense in the hopes that people will respond.....there is a word for that

 

[Race Radio]

Re:

Chill out Joe. That's merely what I read on the internet. I'll rephrase:

"The federation had gained money for coaching and support of athletes from President Jimmy Carter's inquiry into the domination in sport by what were perceived to be state-sponsored amateurs from communist countries. Fraysee spoke to Borysewicz about bringing his experience of Polish sports schools." (wikipedia)

I am sure you realize there is nothing in that quote that supports your claim?

Funny how you missed this part

Ed Burke, without Borysewicz's knowledge or approval, set up a clinic in a Los Angeles motel room.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Chill out Joe. That's merely what I read on the internet. I'll rephrase:

"The federation had gained money for coaching and support of athletes from President Jimmy Carter's inquiry into the domination in sport by what were perceived to be state-sponsored amateurs from communist countries. Fraysee spoke to Borysewicz about bringing his experience of Polish sports schools." (wikipedia)

I am sure you realize there is nothing in that quote that supports your claim?

Funny how you missed this part

Ed Burke, without Borysewicz's knowledge or approval, set up a clinic in a Los Angeles motel room.

RR, that is Eddie's wiki.
if I'm a doper, and I write ten good things about myself and ten bad things.
Which are the things I'm most likely to lie about?
When Landis said he was clean, ivs. when he indicted Lance, when was he lying? When Julich said he doped in 1998, but not in 2004, what part was he honest about?
That you still haven't mastered this logic is baffling.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Chill out Joe. That's merely what I read on the internet. I'll rephrase:

"The federation had gained money for coaching and support of athletes from President Jimmy Carter's inquiry into the domination in sport by what were perceived to be state-sponsored amateurs from communist countries. Fraysee spoke to Borysewicz about bringing his experience of Polish sports schools." (wikipedia)

I am sure you realize there is nothing in that quote that supports your claim?

Did I say there is? Joe asked me to reformulate, so I took a shortcut.
If you can't do the math on Eddie, I can't help you.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Looking forward to you supplying some evidence for this rumor.

Evidence that the rumor existed/circulated or evidence that the rumor is true? Two different things, i can't answer not knowing which of the two you mean.

In other words you made it up

Thanks for confirming

Read the discussion before jumping in RR. Gisbers, Dhaenens, Boogerd, Vandeweghe. Linked upthread.

And you know what? I'll add Lance as a fifth source. I think he said something like "Come on, you didn't do EPO? Everybody knows you did EPO". Seems he was merely referring to the rumor that was circulating in the peloton in the 90s.

The rumor existed. Whether the rumor was true is another question (hence my question to you, which unsurprisingly you pretended not to understand). I don't know the answer to that and unlike you, 86tdfwinner and some others, I'm open to arguments in both ways.

 

[Race Radio]

Re: Re:

Looking forward to you supplying some evidence for this rumor.

Evidence that the rumor existed/circulated or evidence that the rumor is true? Two different things, i can't answer not knowing which of the two you mean.

In other words you made it up

Thanks for confirming

Read the discussion before jumping in RR. Gisbers, Dhaenens, Boogerd, Vandeweghe. Linked upthread.

And you know what? I'll add Lance as a fifth source. I think he said something like "Come on, you didn't do EPO? Everybody knows you did EPO". Seems he was merely referring to the rumor that was circulating in the peloton in the 90s.

Lance actually said "Everyone does EPO" followed by "I can find 10 people who say you took EPO". Despite 10 years of searching, including offering money to Greg's former teamates
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/greg-lemond-quoted-newspaper-lance-armstrong-pay-individual-doping-claims-article-1.468881

Lance could not find one......and either have you

 

[Race Radio]

Re: Re:

Looking forward to you supplying some evidence for this rumor.

Evidence that the rumor existed/circulated or evidence that the rumor is true? Two different things, i can't answer not knowing which of the two you mean.

In other words you made it up

Thanks for confirming

Read the discussion before jumping in RR. Vandeweghe

You mean this Vandeweghe?

am now reading tidbits of Hans Vandeweghe “Wie gelooft die renners nog?”.
there's an interview with Van Mol from 2006 in there, where he speaks quite openly about doping and says he's seen one guy win the TdF on burritos and tacos: Greg.
Imo that's a pretty strong reference for Lemond to have. (Van Mol was ADR doctor in 1989).

VandeWeghe indeed briefly speaks about the rumor that apparently circulated for some time about Lemond having used EPO for his kidney, but discards it on the basis of the before-mentioned argument that it wasn't in use yet in 87.
He mentions no sources for the rumor.

Still waiting for link showing that Greg got access to EPO during it's clinical trials. So far your only "Evidence" is a forum post that was shown to be completely fabricated.

 

[King Boonen]

You won't be getting one for a while RR...

 

[Race Radio]

Re:

And just speaking of a time line with a bit of skepticism, it wouldn't be too unlikely that LeMond was an autologous blood doper? Just like most successful U.S riders at the time of 1984, right?

Ignoring your ad hominem insults. No, most US Riders were not blood doping in 1984. A group of track riders on the National team did. Connie did not. Alexi did not. They both won Gold medals in the road race. Greg was not on the national team and had not been for 4 years. He was living 6,000 miles away.

No matter the effort some here go to invent nonsense there still is zero evidence that Greg doped. None. In fact if you talk to teammates, staff, management, and others involved in the sport at the time you will find the same story, that Greg rode clean

 

[Dr.Guess]

If you have been offended by my post, I appologise. I did not mean to put you in the defensive corner. Thank you for the reply about the U.S 1984 team.

Btw, was sniper banned? I enjoyed reading his investigation. Who knows what will come out of it? Anyway, looking forward what he can do while he's away.

 

[1Hawkeye]

RR do you have any proof other than a supposed call Kathy Lemond took for the payoff to get Armstrong, Armstrong said it never happened. Lemond wouldn't identify who called. Should be pretty easy to get proof since the Lemond's unethically and in some cases probably illegally record phone calls without telling the caller on the other end.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

RR do you have any proof other than a supposed call Kathy Lemond took for the payoff to get Armstrong, Armstrong said it never happened. Lemond wouldn't identify who called. Should be pretty easy to get proof since the Lemond's unethically and in some cases probably illegally record phone calls without telling the caller on the other end.

Well, you certainly got him on that one. Well done.

John Swanson