LeMond III

[sniper]

Re: LeMond

... I will certainly change or re-examine my view at that point and weigh it against the substantial evidence that he didn't dope.

actually Franklin did just that, in this excellent post:
viewtopic.php?p=915089#p915089

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

Given the way sport -- all sport -- selects for success it shouldn't be too surprising to discover that successful athletes share similar traits unrelated to sport. They're all going through the same gates. The same could be said for unsuccessful athletes.

 

[blutto]

Re: LeMond

"Serial phone call recorder sans consent and refuser to answer questions at a USADA trial witness, Greg LeMond says he never doped as it would be ethically wrong"

.... indeed...

Cheers

 

[red_flanders]

Re: LeMond

To be fair...

...


Has no solid grounding or a link.

Drug use said to concern Lemond (LA Times, 1989)
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond

Although LeMond's break with PDM, the sport's dominant team, was primarily the result of a financial dispute, Ron Stanko of Reading, Pa., said the cyclist was believed to be out of the contract before this year because of his philosophical differences with the team's officials regarding banned substances.

He said LeMond was particularly bothered by the team's insistence that he use testosterone, a naturally produced male hormone that some cyclists believe will replenish their strength when injected into their systems. Cyclists are penalized if an excessive amount of testosterone is discovered in their urine samples during drug tests.

Of course PDM threatens with a "judicial problem", but never sues. What a shocker.

....so this Ron Stanko lawyer person, who is professionally involved in world of track and field and with the required gravity, can say, as part of the LeMond/PDM back and forth that, " track and field is relatively clean compared to professional cycling." and still be seen as a totally believable stand-up kinda guy....guess it depends on whatever definition of relatively clean you are working from....and btw how on earth would he know ?....and if you come back with well its common knowledge you have to ask yourself why on earth is Mr Clean riding for PDM ( I mean you'd blow positive after just shaking hands with those guys...they were literally soaked in incriminating evidence....they glowed at night they were such a heat score... )...

...as for why no suit, maybe Stanko never ventured into Benelux to be served papers....or maybe we should look at what was actually said...

""He should watch what he says," Jansen said by telephone from the Netherlands. "He might have a judicial problem."

...not a lawyer but "might have" does not easily translate into papers have been served and you are to appear in court or anything more than "your momma wears army boots"...just sayin' eh...

Cheers

So let's attack Ron Stanko and ignore the fact that the main thrust of him leaving was contractual, and there wasn't any need to bring up the doping angle. No one asked, it was volunteered information.

Clearly the "judicial action" comment was a threat, it's disingenuous to act like it wasn't.

 

[gooner]

Re: LeMond

"Serial phone call recorder sans consent and refuser to answer questions at a USADA trial witness, Greg LeMond says he never doped as it would be ethically wrong"

Which in fact as was shown up in the past, an opinion that you had the complete opposite of before.

 

[thehog]

Re: LeMond

"Serial phone call recorder sans consent and refuser to answer questions at a USADA trial witness, Greg LeMond says he never doped as it would be ethically wrong"

Which in fact as was shown up in the past, an opinion that you had the complete opposite of before.

Well that makes no sense. Are you relying on Internet rumours again?

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: LeMond

To be fair...

...


Has no solid grounding or a link.

Drug use said to concern Lemond (LA Times, 1989)
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond

Although LeMond's break with PDM, the sport's dominant team, was primarily the result of a financial dispute, Ron Stanko of Reading, Pa., said the cyclist was believed to be out of the contract before this year because of his philosophical differences with the team's officials regarding banned substances.

He said LeMond was particularly bothered by the team's insistence that he use testosterone, a naturally produced male hormone that some cyclists believe will replenish their strength when injected into their systems. Cyclists are penalized if an excessive amount of testosterone is discovered in their urine samples during drug tests.

Of course PDM threatens with a "judicial problem", but never sues. What a shocker.

Ron Stanko?

LeMond's attorney is named Stanko?

Okay, anyway... I'm going to call conflict of interest on that source.

He's his attorney. He'll say whatever needs to be said.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: LeMond

I'm not going to get into a tit-for-tat about every unsubstantiated rumor or bit of speculation.

I have not seen anything new in this "case" for 10 years, and at that point it was BS from Lance which of course turned out not to be true at all. Bring up something new, I'll discuss it in detail.

We've already covered the rationalization that WE have blinders on or worship Lemond. It's nonsense. I arrived at a conclusion about Lemond decades ago and have seen nothing that changes it. Wake me up when someone I've heard of who knew Lemond says that they think he doped. Who are they? When did they say it? What was their relationship to Lemond? Are the more credible than the coaches and teammates who have continuously over the years singled out Lemond as a guy who never touched anything? Never have I heard that.

I don't think the guy doped. Nothing brought up here even begins to affect that view.

 

[gooner]

Re: LeMond

"Serial phone call recorder sans consent and refuser to answer questions at a USADA trial witness, Greg LeMond says he never doped as it would be ethically wrong"

Which in fact as was shown up in the past, an opinion that you had the complete opposite of before.

Well that makes no sense. Are you relying on Internet rumours again?

Posting history as you were found to criticise the Lance fans for saying the same thing.

 

[thehog]

Re: LeMond

"Serial phone call recorder sans consent and refuser to answer questions at a USADA trial witness, Greg LeMond says he never doped as it would be ethically wrong"

Which in fact as was shown up in the past, an opinion that you had the complete opposite of before.

Well that makes no sense. Are you relying on Internet rumours again?

Posting history as you were found to criticise the Lance fans for saying the same thing.

Ummm ok, this is the LeMond thread, not the Lance thread. Not sure what Lance has got to do with this? Are you deflecting again?

So back to my statement using wit and irony about LeMond. Which part do you feel is representatively untrue?

 

[sniper]

Re: LeMond

I'm not going to get into a tit-for-tat about every unsubstantiated rumor or bit of speculation.

I have not seen anything new in this "case" for 10 years, and at that point it was BS from Lance which of course turned out not to be true at all. Bring up something new, I'll discuss it in detail.

We've already covered the rationalization that WE have blinders on or worship Lemond. It's nonsense. I arrived at a conclusion about Lemond decades ago and have seen nothing that changes it. Wake me up when someone I've heard of who knew Lemond says that they think he doped. Who are they? When did they say it? What was their relationship to Lemond? Are the more credible than the coaches and teammates who have continuously over the years singled out Lemond as a guy who never touched anything? Never have I heard that.

I don't think the guy doped. Nothing brought up here even begins to affect that view.

Made up your mind decades ago? Yes, we can see that.
Don't think the guy doped? Simplifying. The debate has moved away from a simple yes/no question long ago.

All i'm saying to you is that you're either deliberately bending the facts or simply missing out on a whole lot of new info when you say the EPO rumor is "supposed comments of a guy who's been dead for 20 years". It was the entire peloton. Sorry. Fair enough if you don't deem that worthy of discussion. But it makes your lecturing of others on what they have "missed" seem a bit misplaced.

You can do better.

 

[thehog]

Re: LeMond

To be fair...

...


Has no solid grounding or a link.

Drug use said to concern Lemond (LA Times, 1989)
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond

Although LeMond's break with PDM, the sport's dominant team, was primarily the result of a financial dispute, Ron Stanko of Reading, Pa., said the cyclist was believed to be out of the contract before this year because of his philosophical differences with the team's officials regarding banned substances.

He said LeMond was particularly bothered by the team's insistence that he use testosterone, a naturally produced male hormone that some cyclists believe will replenish their strength when injected into their systems. Cyclists are penalized if an excessive amount of testosterone is discovered in their urine samples during drug tests.

Of course PDM threatens with a "judicial problem", but never sues. What a shocker.

Ron Stanko?

LeMond's attorney is named Stanko?

Okay, anyway... I'm going to call conflict of interest on that source.

He's his attorney. He'll say whatever needs to be said.

Yes, Ron Stanko who apparently...

The biggest instance, in my mind, is the fact Ron Stanko got caught by the court hiding $25,000 in community property from his first wife during their divorce. Not only did he try to cheat her, he went to great lengths to hide the payment by laundering it through a real estate transaction. Character counts in Judges and Stanko's extensive legal docket shows he doesn't have the character to sit on a bench anywhere.

When you add in the fact Stanko announced several endorsements which didn't exist, has repeatedly used a picture of Wyomissing's police chief, in uniform, in his mailings, used his Office of Mayor to hang his nominating petitions publicly in Borough Hall in violation of law, and numerous other transgressions, it's clear who the choice for Judge is this year: Tim Rowley.

http://pennsylvaniaprogressive.typepad.com/berks_democrats/current_affairs/

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

Now I have to step in and call utter BS.

I conducted the Boyer interview. What he meant was that when they were 9 riders, Greg had the lonely room, which makes sense since he's the team leader. When a teammate did quit, or they were in even numbers, Greg went back to sharing the room with Eric Boyer. Greg never "isolated" himself. BS.

The fact that Greg was the first to have his family is noticeable in terms of culture. At the time it was frowned upon. Kelly even inflicted himself a 2 weeks no sex rule before a big race. Again, pure BS. Going from "spending time with my family" to "suspicious activities" is outrageous.

Although we disagree on the interpretation of different pieces of information, and how to weigh these pieces of info (evidence, no evidence, etc.), I have to give you credit for at least normally addressing the arguments being put forward by me and some others.

I stand at least partially corrected wrt Lemond 'isolating' himself, though I definitely think the rest days would be an interesting aspect to look at more closely.
For the record: I don't think it was 'suspicious behaviour'. I do think his father-in-law being an MD and Kathy being a nurse is, well, an interesting fact.
The point I was making is: if, and I stress IF, Lemond would have wanted to gear up or transfuse during GT rest days, he seems to have had the opportunity to do so without his teammates knowing.
In part that is a response to gjb123's suggestion that transfusing during GTs in the 80s would have been complicated to organize.
Whether Lemond actually did gear up or transfuse is a totally different question. Just saying, imo, he could , if he wanted.

As for the Dhaenens rumour. I would like it to remain what it is : a RUMOUR ! Remember that girl in college that refused to have sex with the football marvel ? He said she was a ****, then someone else said he'd done it with her and by the end of the first semester you had a list of partners and the price they had paid. Rumours are created and spread and escalate because people like to feel important and need an excuse to do bad thing. This rumour, as such, should be taken as anything. When I read the word "evidence" right next to it, I call BS again. In fact, by spreading and escalating the rumour yourself, you are guilty of diffamation, if only in my opinion.

Yes, it's a rumor. I know, and I said that everytime I posted about it.
But so is the use of motorized bikes and AICAR among pro's.
btw, if you check the definition of "evidence", you'll have to agree that an EPO rumor running through the peloton is indeed evidence. Whether the EPO rumor is WEAK or STRONG evidence, is a different matter, and I guess to some extent a matter of taste. Also depends on whether, and if so how, we factor in other pieces of info, such as the timing of the introduction of EPO combined with the timing of the iron shot episode, and combined with his kidney disorder. Imo, these pieces of info/evidence should not be considered in isolation.

I respect your view on the EPO rumor, and don't necessarily disagree with your take on it, but will remain on the fence with an inclination towards skeptical.

I maintain that making vague assumptions equals to spreading rumours. Rumours tend to escalate at exponential rate and out of control. Since they're made from thin air they cannot be verified. Once you've (and when I say "you", I'm not targetting one particular poster) spread it, damage is done. There is no way back.

Now, by the sound of it, it's as if Greg was surrounded by a medical staff entirely dedicated to his doping program ! You can add all the "IF"s you want, you know most people will read it sideways and conclude very quickly. This is irresponsible.

Greg's family jobs could have been anything. At this point, you'd be sniffing around and find a use for them to support your theory.
For example, if Greg's father in law had been :
-Plumber : Ah, quite practical to carry frozen stuff around, if the fridges breaks down...
-Fire fighter : just in case you had to practice CPR after Greg passed out due to too many red blood cells...
-Lion tamer : I see, you can get products from the vet under the radar...

Do you see where this is going ? This is sloppy detective work. At best. Diffamatory, really.

It's stuff that it's ok to have in your head to help you follow an idea. It's not ok to post it here with no accountibility whatsoever.

 

[sniper]

fair points, NL, but part of what you deplore is just inherent to the nature of the Clinic.
It was designed to freely discuss doping. And so the defamatory nature of some discussions is difficult to avoid.
I'm not saying that that's not a problem. It is something to ponder about.
But I don't think these considerations should, at this point, limit the discussion.
We're freely discussing Cancellara, whom you yourself accuse of using a motor.
We're freely discussing AICAR, Froome's bilhardzia. Cound's mother. And not long ago you were calling Miguel Mig-hell. Etc.
There is a comparable amount of rumor and speculation involved in those discussions.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Precisely. I attacked the riders. Not their relatives. And certainly not on a hunch.

If Fabian or Miguel complain about me, I can show them pictures and figures. I am accountable.

What is there to show for the Dhaenens rumour ? For Kathy's father's resume ? There should be a line.

I want to keep contributing because this thread needs balance. But throwing mud at my friends makes it very hard.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: LeMond

Made up your mind decades ago? Yes, we can see that.
Don't think the guy doped? Simplifying. The debate has moved away from a simple yes/no question long ago.

Yes, I had facts decades ago, and formed an opinion from them. This is what thinking people do.

In addition to the now decades old testimonies of people who actually knew, coached and rode with him, I watched him ride the Tour. Not on some highlight on the weekend on ABC with John Tesh, I watched the races in Belgium. Entire stages, for the entire Tour. Several times, as well as one or two spring classics.

There is nothing about the way he rode that makes me think he doped. It all looks exactly as you'd expect a great rider not doping to look. Strong, but with weak days and frantic moments. Ebb and flow. Winning, but nothing which looked superhuman. Winning with tactics as well as strength when he had it.

There is nothing simple about it, despite your need to frame it as such. It was a time when people knew riders were doping, and it was known in the sport who was doing it. Just as it is now. So for me to ignore all that because some person on the internet who never even watched him ride read somewhere that some people who tangentially might have known Lemond through the sport thought he was doping....well that's just not cutting it.

I have made up my mind. If new facts come about which change things, I will change my mind. I can't fathom what is meant by the discussion moving on from a "simple" yes or no. That's the question, isn't it? Did he dope? What's not binary about that? It's a yes or no question.

You want to add shades of grey to that? Explain.

 

[blutto]

Re: LeMond

Made up your mind decades ago? Yes, we can see that.
Don't think the guy doped? Simplifying. The debate has moved away from a simple yes/no question long ago.

Yes, I had facts decades ago, and formed an opinion from them. This is what thinking people do.

In addition to the now decades old testimonies of people who actually knew, coached and rode with him, I watched him ride the Tour. Not on some highlight on the weekend on ABC with John Tesh, I watched the races in Belgium. Entire stages, for the entire Tour. Several times, as well as one or two spring classics.

There is nothing about the way he rode that makes me think he doped. It all looks exactly as you'd expect a great rider not doping to look. Strong, but with weak days and frantic moments. Ebb and flow. Winning, but nothing which looked superhuman. Winning with tactics as well as strength when he had it.

There is nothing simple about it, despite your need to frame it as such. It was a time when people knew riders were doping, and it was known in the sport who was doing it. Just as it is now. So for me to ignore all that because some person on the internet who never even watched him ride read somewhere that some people who tangentially might have known Lemond through the sport thought he was doping....well that's just not cutting it.

I have made up my mind. If new facts come about which change things, I will change my mind. I can't fathom what is meant by the discussion moving on from a "simple" yes or no. That's the question, isn't it? Did he dope? What's not binary about that? It's a yes or no question.

You want to add shades of grey to that? Explain.

....John Tesh on ABC ?....remember him on CBS and NBC but ABC ?....but not ABC...are you sure...

Cheers

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re:

Precisely.
...

If Fabian or Miguel complain about me, I can show them pictures and figures. I am accountable.

...

What?

I mean, do they complain?

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

Now I have to step in and call utter BS.

I conducted the Boyer interview. What he meant was that when they were 9 riders, Greg had the lonely room, which makes sense since he's the team leader. When a teammate did quit, or they were in even numbers, Greg went back to sharing the room with Eric Boyer. Greg never "isolated" himself. BS.

The fact that Greg was the first to have his family is noticeable in terms of culture. At the time it was frowned upon. Kelly even inflicted himself a 2 weeks no sex rule before a big race. Again, pure BS. Going from "spending time with my family" to "suspicious activities" is outrageous.

Although we disagree on the interpretation of different pieces of information, and how to weigh these pieces of info (evidence, no evidence, etc.), I have to give you credit for at least normally addressing the arguments being put forward by me and some others.

I stand at least partially corrected wrt Lemond 'isolating' himself, though I definitely think the rest days would be an interesting aspect to look at more closely.
For the record: I don't think it was 'suspicious behaviour'. I do think his father-in-law being an MD and Kathy being a nurse is, well, an interesting fact.
The point I was making is: if, and I stress IF, Lemond would have wanted to gear up or transfuse during GT rest days, he seems to have had the opportunity to do so without his teammates knowing.
In part that is a response to gjb123's suggestion that transfusing during GTs in the 80s would have been complicated to organize.
Whether Lemond actually did gear up or transfuse is a totally different question. Just saying, imo, he could , if he wanted.

As for the Dhaenens rumour. I would like it to remain what it is : a RUMOUR ! Remember that girl in college that refused to have sex with the football marvel ? He said she was a ****, then someone else said he'd done it with her and by the end of the first semester you had a list of partners and the price they had paid. Rumours are created and spread and escalate because people like to feel important and need an excuse to do bad thing. This rumour, as such, should be taken as anything. When I read the word "evidence" right next to it, I call BS again. In fact, by spreading and escalating the rumour yourself, you are guilty of diffamation, if only in my opinion.

Yes, it's a rumor. I know, and I said that everytime I posted about it.
But so is the use of motorized bikes and AICAR among pro's.
btw, if you check the definition of "evidence", you'll have to agree that an EPO rumor running through the peloton is indeed evidence. Whether the EPO rumor is WEAK or STRONG evidence, is a different matter, and I guess to some extent a matter of taste. Also depends on whether, and if so how, we factor in other pieces of info, such as the timing of the introduction of EPO combined with the timing of the iron shot episode, and combined with his kidney disorder. Imo, these pieces of info/evidence should not be considered in isolation.

I respect your view on the EPO rumor, and don't necessarily disagree with your take on it, but will remain on the fence with an inclination towards skeptical.

How was it the entire peloton? As usual you are widly exaggerating. Dhaenans, Gisbers and later Boogerd is not the entire peloton. The reality for those who were around at the time is that the stories were all about the Italians and there are quotes from riders on record to that effect, not "rumours" surfacing 25 yrs later.

You want us to addresss this rumour but what is there to address? Why did it start? Try this for size.
LeMond rode for PDM were Gibers was a DS and Dhaenans a rider. He was paid big money whilst there but didn't perform and broke his contract to leave. The next season LeMond returns as Tour Champion. How do you think the guys at PDM felt? Did it ever occur to you that the "rumour" may have been started malicioulsy out of bitterness. Or maybe like many others, they just put 2+2 together and came up with 5 and have no real insight or knowledge. Perhaps he was using EPO in 1988 to ride the likes of the Tour of Holland or Nissan Classic.

If EPO=iron shots, then it seems a strange time to start taking EPO and would suggest that someone else introduced it. As I pointed out before, LeMond had a good early season in 89 but then his form just vanished from April to mid Giro. Surely if he were taking EPO, he would have been doing it whilst preparing for the Giro(which was a major target)when he was back home in the US during May. I don't think starting to take EPO during the middle of a GT is normal practice.

The other things is this, the other early benefactos of EPO were allegedly the likes of Bugno/Argentin/Chiappucci who all had doctors to advise them on how to use EPO effectively. Who was advising LeMond? It was not Van Mol as he seemed to have had little contact with LeMond. You might claim his wife or father-in-law but would they really know how to effectively ally it to an athletes needs. The likes of Ferrari/Conconi were specialists in exercise and phsiology which is why they became the kings of doping as they knew how to match the medicine with the exercise.

If LeMond were using EPO in 1990, why were his Z team(later GAN) supposedly one of the last teams to switch to using EPO. Anyone remember the poor preformances of GAN in 93/94. Isn't Eric Boyer on record somewhere as saying he only got to know the full insight on EPO when he moved to Polti which was 1994 if I recall correctly. Nicolas Aubier who broke ometra pre Festina and rode for GAN said the first time he was offered EPO was at another team.

Talking in "whats ifs", anything is possible.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Precisely.
...

If Fabian or Miguel complain about me, I can show them pictures and figures. I am accountable.

...

What?

I mean, do they complain?

Fabian is Swiss, they complain all the time. Centuries of being neutral and sitting on the fence has turned into a nation of complainers.

Miguel is very outspoken. Can't keep him quiet. Always complaining Big Mig. Apparently there was a massive bust up at last years Tour when LeMond wouldn't let him ride shotgun in the open top car after the closing stage. That's Miguel, always complaining.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Now I have to step in and call utter BS.

I conducted the Boyer interview. What he meant was that when they were 9 riders, Greg had the lonely room, which makes sense since he's the team leader. When a teammate did quit, or they were in even numbers, Greg went back to sharing the room with Eric Boyer. Greg never "isolated" himself. BS.

The fact that Greg was the first to have his family is noticeable in terms of culture. At the time it was frowned upon. Kelly even inflicted himself a 2 weeks no sex rule before a big race. Again, pure BS. Going from "spending time with my family" to "suspicious activities" is outrageous.

Although we disagree on the interpretation of different pieces of information, and how to weigh these pieces of info (evidence, no evidence, etc.), I have to give you credit for at least normally addressing the arguments being put forward by me and some others.

I stand at least partially corrected wrt Lemond 'isolating' himself, though I definitely think the rest days would be an interesting aspect to look at more closely.
For the record: I don't think it was 'suspicious behaviour'. I do think his father-in-law being an MD and Kathy being a nurse is, well, an interesting fact.
The point I was making is: if, and I stress IF, Lemond would have wanted to gear up or transfuse during GT rest days, he seems to have had the opportunity to do so without his teammates knowing.
In part that is a response to gjb123's suggestion that transfusing during GTs in the 80s would have been complicated to organize.
Whether Lemond actually did gear up or transfuse is a totally different question. Just saying, imo, he could , if he wanted.

As for the Dhaenens rumour. I would like it to remain what it is : a RUMOUR ! Remember that girl in college that refused to have sex with the football marvel ? He said she was a ****, then someone else said he'd done it with her and by the end of the first semester you had a list of partners and the price they had paid. Rumours are created and spread and escalate because people like to feel important and need an excuse to do bad thing. This rumour, as such, should be taken as anything. When I read the word "evidence" right next to it, I call BS again. In fact, by spreading and escalating the rumour yourself, you are guilty of diffamation, if only in my opinion.

Yes, it's a rumor. I know, and I said that everytime I posted about it.
But so is the use of motorized bikes and AICAR among pro's.
btw, if you check the definition of "evidence", you'll have to agree that an EPO rumor running through the peloton is indeed evidence. Whether the EPO rumor is WEAK or STRONG evidence, is a different matter, and I guess to some extent a matter of taste. Also depends on whether, and if so how, we factor in other pieces of info, such as the timing of the introduction of EPO combined with the timing of the iron shot episode, and combined with his kidney disorder. Imo, these pieces of info/evidence should not be considered in isolation.

I respect your view on the EPO rumor, and don't necessarily disagree with your take on it, but will remain on the fence with an inclination towards skeptical.

How was it the entire peloton? As usual you are widly exaggerating. Dhaenans, Gisbers and later Boogerd is not the entire peloton. The reality for those who were around at the time is that the stories were all about the Italians and there are quotes from riders on record to that effect, not "rumours" surfacing 25 yrs later.

You want us to addresss this rumour but what is there to address? Why did it start? Try this for size.
LeMond rode for PDM were Gibers was a DS and Dhaenans a rider. He was paid big money whilst there but didn't perform and broke his contract to leave. The next season LeMond returns as Tour Champion. How do you think the guys at PDM felt? Did it ever occur to you that the "rumour" may have been started malicioulsy out of bitterness. Or maybe like many others, they just put 2+2 together and came up with 5 and have no real insight or knowledge. Perhaps he was using EPO in 1988 to ride the likes of the Tour of Holland or Nissan Classic.

If EPO=iron shots, then it seems a strange time to start taking EPO and would suggest that someone else introduced it. As I pointed out before, LeMond had a good early season in 89 but then his form just vanished from April to mid Giro. Surely if he were taking EPO, he would have been doing it whilst preparing for the Giro(which was a major target)when he was back home in the US during May. I don't think starting to take EPO during the middle of a GT is normal practice.

The other things is this, the other early benefactos of EPO were allegedly the likes of Bugno/Argentin/Chiappucci who all had doctors to advise them on how to use EPO effectively. Who was advising LeMond? It was not Van Mol as he seemed to have had little contact with LeMond. You might claim his wife or father-in-law but would they really know how to effectively ally it to an athletes needs. The likes of Ferrari/Conconi were specialists in exercise and phsiology which is why they became the kings of doping as they knew how to match the medicine with the exercise.

If LeMond were using EPO in 1990, why were his Z team(later GAN) supposedly one of the last teams to switch to using EPO. Anyone remember the poor preformances of GAN in 93/94. Isn't Eric Boyer on record somewhere as saying he only got to know the full insight on EPO when he moved to Polti which was 1994 if I recall correctly. Nicolas Aubier who broke ometra pre Festina and rode for GAN said the first time he was offered EPO was at another team.

Talking in "whats ifs", anything is possible.

Nailed it.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

By the way, anyone care to give me a credible chronology ? When exactly, in your theory, did Greg start taking something and what ?

We know he was at his peak in 1986. What was he on, then ?

We know he wasn't doping very efficiently in 87/88. How come ?

How come his worst season was in the best doping team he ever was in (PDM 1988) ? Why did he leave (for a rather crappy team) if he agreed to dope ?

Why did he mention the iron shots when nobody asked him anything ?

How come he only won the 1989 Tour by only 8 seconds when he was surrounded by a medical staff, with products at his disposal ? When we know for a fact Fignon did not use EPO or blood doping ?

Or, if Fignon actually did use them, how come his performances started to fade when he joined Gianni Bugno's Gatorade team ?

How come Greg was not as strong in an ITT for the GC win in 1990 as he was in 1985 ? Did his doping not improve with all the ressources at his disposal ?

How do you explain Greg's demise if the mitochondrial myopathy is a myth ? Again, this is, at least, very bad doping.

 

[GJB123]

Re: LeMond

...
The games comment was for thehog, for reasons we all understand. He was playing games, as he knows full well there are dozens of links to the PDM story.

I'm not responding to you because all you're doing is dredging up unsubstantiated rumors which stand in opposition to the testimony of a great many people who would know. You're dredging up dates when EPO might have hit the peloton. It's all just so thin that I find it unworthy of any meaningful response. I'm not going to get into a tit-for-tat about every unsubstantiated rumor or bit of speculation you drag into this.

I have not seen anything new in this "case" for 10 years, and at that point it was BS from Lance which of course turned out not to be true at all. When you bring up something new, I'll discuss it with you in detail.

You're bummed that people who know what they're talking about won't engage with you on this? Maybe ask yourself why. We've already covered the rationalization that WE have blinders on or worship Lemond. It's nonsense. I arrived at a conclusion about Lemond decades ago and have seen nothing that changes it. The other option is that you're beating a dead horse with uninformed speculation and unsubstantiated rumor. Wake me up when someone I've heard of who knew Lemond says that they think he doped. Who are they? When did they say it? What was their relationship to Lemond? Are the more credible than the coaches and teammates who have continuously over the years singled out Lemond as a guy who never touched anything? Never have I heard that.

I don't think the guy doped. Nothing you have brought up even begins to affect that view.

Made up your mind decades ago? Yes, we can see that.
Don't think the guy doped? Simplifying. The debate has moved away from a simple yes/no question long ago.

All i'm saying to you is that you're either deliberately bending the facts or simply missing out on a whole lot of new info when you say the EPO rumor is "supposed comments of a guy who's been dead for 20 years". It was the entire peloton. Sorry. Fair enough if you don't deem that worthy of discussion. But it makes your lecturing of others on what they have "missed" seem a bit misplaced.

You can do better.

As to the bolded, now it has gone from Dhaenens (PDM), Gisbers (PDM) and Boogerd (who didn't even ride with LeMond) to the entire peloton. Really? And that is not inflating your argument to fit your narrative. All the team mates saying he was clean are not part of the peloton anymore? Your logic defies believe. You actually seem to believe you are on to something. Say it ain't so.

 

[sniper]

Boogerd said "the peloton he rode in". Lance said "everybody knows". Vandeweghe also speaks of 'the peloton', which I take to suggest 'the peloton at large'. Of course, many caveats, mind.
And mind: just saying what they seem to have said. Not assigning truth to anything, least of all to Lance's assertion. But point is: the rumor was there, and definitely not limited to Dhaenens, as both pmcg and Red have asserted. So, for the sake of consistency, please reply to them as well and tell them they're bending facts to suit their agenda. Like you do with me all the time

Anyway, many important points were made in the previous pages and are waiting for you to address them, preferably without the aggression you and pmcg put in your posts. It doesn't help the discusion. It's not about me. You're reading way too much into my posts. It's almost as if you have a tinfoil hat on everytime you reply to my posts. Which is funny considering how you accuse me of conspiracy thinking. You and pmcg see a conspiracy behind everything I write. I assure you there's no need for that. Peace in the middle east. Or take Red's example, he's ignoring me which is always the best option if you're out of arguments. Aggression is never the answer.

Anyway, points were made, and questions were asked, such as: how did the rumor come in the peloton, you think? Who spread it?
I know many posters are on the record putting every bit of Lemond critique down to a Lance smear campaign (again the conspiracy angle, ironically).
But certainly you'll agree that the fact that the rumor existed in the early 90s (see Dhaenens + Dutch/belgian blogger) seems to discard Lance as a source?
Would love an honest/direct answer from you.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

we have documentary evidence that transfusion was being used in cycling on a regular basis in the 1970s.

Please, do share with the class your evidence transfusions being used regularly in cycling in the 1970s, it'd be fascinating to read. And please, for regularly used, we need more than Zoetemelk and the fact that Merckx was once offered a transfusion.

If you care about the truth more than you do about winning this non-existent debate, you can do the research yourself. Who suggested the transfusion to Merckx? It must have been a homologous transfusion (someone else's blood) they were suggesting, right? Because if it were autologous that can only mean Merckx had had blood extracted earlier with the intention of transfusing.

The doctor who made this suggestion to Merckx must have made a case for it to him, tried to explain it. Surely he suggested to Merckx that it would increase his endurance, enhance his strength? Are we to believe Merckx, preparing to attempt the hour record, would say, "Nah, doc, you know me: paniagua all the way"?

But, you might ask, if Merckx actually did transfuse, why would he even mention it? Perhaps for the same reason Bill Clinton volunteered that he had tried marijuana . . . "but didn't inhale": because other people had been involved, and he wanted to get out in front of it, reveal it, and deal with it, before someone else did. Thus Merckx volunteers that he was offered transfusion but, like Clinton, "didn't inhale".

What other teams or riders did the doctor work with? If he was offering it to Merckx he certainly knew it would be of benefit. Which can only mean he had some experience with it in other riders. Riders who had tried it would know it worked, and would take this knowledge with them to other teams.

The same questions could be asked about the doctor who assisted Zoetemelk (or, later, the doc who assisted Moser) in transfusing. Are we to believe that Zoetemelk didn't share this info with his teammates, or that Zoetemelk's doctor didn't share this knowledge with other riders, or that these riders didn't take this info to other teams? (And the same questions could be asked of Moser and Moser's doctor and Moser's teammates in the early eighties.)