LeMond III

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

if Lemond was blooddoping pre-86, it's difficult to fathom he'd drop the procedure post-1986.

Logic, sniper style: transfusions were not illegal pre-86 QED LeMond transfused pre-86 QED LeMond continued to transfuse post-86.

Bloomin' marvelous, I say.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

One more time, I respectfully refer you to the articles on blood transfusion previously linked to. Whether the expertise was in Europe in the 1980s is clearly addressed there.

you are right, and apologies for missing it earlier.
Quite revealing, in fact.
Here it is: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/a-history-on-blood-transfusions-in-cycling-part-2/
Must read for Red Flanders and gjb123 both of whom iirc were downplaying the importance of blood doping in cycling in the 80s only a few pages back.

An excerpt:

This Conconi was able to boost by the use of blood doping, a fact Moser finally confirmed in 1999, after the Festina affaire caused the skeletons in cycling's cupboard to be rattled. "I was not the only one nor the first who used blood transfusions to improve my performance. I was told that Jacques Anquetil had done it and that was well before my time. […] It was my own blood. And I was not the only rider doing it," Moser told L'Equipe. (For the record, one journalist – Joël Godaert – claims that Merckx was offered a transfusion for his 1972 assault on the Hour but declined.)

Another excerpt:

Between the US Olympic squad and Moser's Hour rides, 1984 proved to be something of a watershed year for the use of blood transfusions in cycling. But there was more going on that just those two cases. New evidence has recently come to light which suggests that transfusions also became part of the doping armory in the Continental peloton.

Interviewed by Daniel Friebe for his Eddy Merckx biography, The Cannibal, Roger de Vlaeminck made reference to the use of blood transfusions when he was a member of Moser's 1984 Gis-Tuc Lu squad. "They spoke to me about blood transfusions." De Vlaeminck told Friebe. "When I was riding for Francesco Moser, they asked whether I wanted to give half a litre of blood to put in the fridge. I said no…"

yikes

and

By the end of the 1980s, transfusions are thought to have fallen out of favour.

ok. So many cyclists would have made use of them illegally, between 1985 (when it got banned) and the end of the 80s.

fmk_rol: As for the effectiveness of LA84 - do some research and don't just read Wiki. It's a well known story at this stage

i don't think Wiki has the medal count for cycling wrong. And another well-informed source says this about those Games:

The American cyclists had a great Games. A medal drought dating back to 1912 was ended in spectacular fashion, with the cycling squad bringing home nine medals, four of them gold. Blood doping wasn't the sole cause – the Americans were helped by the absence of the Soviet riders and by the presence of some pretty good riders – but blood transfusions did play a role in some of the successes: five of the squad's medallists, along with three others, confessed to having used transfusions. When this was made public, months after the Games ended, all the medals won were tainted by the stain of blood.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/a-history-on-blood-transfusions-in-cycling-part-2/

well said.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

ok. So many would have made use of them illegally, between 1985 (when it got banned) and the end of the 80s.
But not lemond, pupil of..and in that period 2xtdf winner?

The article does not say that, nor does it logically follow. It is more likely that their use was restricted to those who knew how to use them. Ferrari et al. Which of Ferrari's teams did LeMond ride for?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
The article does not say that, nor does it logically follow.

i didn't say the article said that.

It is more likely that their use was restricted to those who knew how to use them. Ferrari et al. Which of Ferrari's teams did LeMond ride for?

Do we really need ferrari to construct a "greg lemond knew how to transfuse" hypothesis?
you should really read your own wonderful article back.

 

[sniper]

i didn't know this about autologous transfusions:

a significant amount of iron is removed by each autologous transfusion...
appropriate iron supplements, are usually required for patients undergoing autologous donations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_doping

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

One more time, I respectfully refer you to the articles on blood transfusion previously linked to. Whether the expertise was in Europe in the 1980s is clearly addressed there.

you are right, and apologies for missing it earlier.
Quite revealing, in fact.
Here it is: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/a-history-on-blood-transfusions-in-cycling-part-2/
Must read for Red Flanders and gjb123 both of whom iirc were downplaying the importance of blood doping in cycling in the 80s only a few pages back.

An excerpt:

This Conconi was able to boost by the use of blood doping, a fact Moser finally confirmed in 1999, after the Festina affaire caused the skeletons in cycling's cupboard to be rattled. "I was not the only one nor the first who used blood transfusions to improve my performance. I was told that Jacques Anquetil had done it and that was well before my time. […] It was my own blood. And I was not the only rider doing it," Moser told L'Equipe. (For the record, one journalist – Joël Godaert – claims that Merckx was offered a transfusion for his 1972 assault on the Hour but declined.)

Another excerpt:

Between the US Olympic squad and Moser's Hour rides, 1984 proved to be something of a watershed year for the use of blood transfusions in cycling. But there was more going on that just those two cases. New evidence has recently come to light which suggests that transfusions also became part of the doping armory in the Continental peloton.

Interviewed by Daniel Friebe for his Eddy Merckx biography, The Cannibal, Roger de Vlaeminck made reference to the use of blood transfusions when he was a member of Moser's 1984 Gis-Tuc Lu squad. "They spoke to me about blood transfusions." De Vlaeminck told Friebe. "When I was riding for Francesco Moser, they asked whether I wanted to give half a litre of blood to put in the fridge. I said no…"

yikes

and

By the end of the 1980s, transfusions are thought to have fallen out of favour.

ok. So many cyclists would have made use of them illegally, between 1985 (when it got banned) and the end of the 80s.

fmk_rol: As for the effectiveness of LA84 - do some research and don't just read Wiki. It's a well known story at this stage

i don't think Wiki has the medal count for cycling wrong. And another well-informed source says this about those Games:

The American cyclists had a great Games. A medal drought dating back to 1912 was ended in spectacular fashion, with the cycling squad bringing home nine medals, four of them gold. Blood doping wasn't the sole cause – the Americans were helped by the absence of the Soviet riders and by the presence of some pretty good riders – but blood transfusions did play a role in some of the successes: five of the squad's medallists, along with three others, confessed to having used transfusions. When this was made public, months after the Games ended, all the medals won were tainted by the stain of blood.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/a-history-on-blood-transfusions-in-cycling-part-2/

well said.

@ Sniper, I read and understood the entire article and let me put it this way; I never stated that blood doping cold not work in the 80's nor did I state that it was;t used at all. Hoever my conclusions tie in pretty well with the article in that it was not widespread, that the effectiveness was doubtful and that there is no reason to assume that it was used in GT's a lot and that use for one day races, hour records, etc. seems more likely. In know the PDM-story and I also understand that that their blood doping is a far cry from the blood doping we have seen post 2000 with centrifuges being used yo a great extent.

But hey, keep flogging the dead horse, it is dead anyway and that won't change one bit by your posts.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

Look at the cycling medals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_at_the_1984_Summer_Olympics

Of those medalists, who was on the transfusion list and who was not? Come on, show me you actually know what you're talking about here, please.

Off the top of my head and without going to my notes to get the names I can tell you that Connie Carpenter wasn't on the list but did medal. So, for you, in order to prove the effectiveness of transfusions, you have to add in the medals won by athletes who did not transfuse?

Let's look who's not on the list. Connie Carpenter, gold medalist, road race (not on the list) defeats a multiple world champion on the road and track in a two-up sprint, Rebecca Twigg who was on the list. Guess who else wasn't on the list? Alexi Grewel, gold medalist, road race. Off the front all day either alone or in small groups, defeats Steve Bauer in two-up sprint. Bauer medals months later at the world pro road championships.

You've got people not on the list defeating champion riders who were. Or, in the case of Grewal, an unlikely candidate to turn down drugs of any kind defeating a notable sprinter with Hall of Fame chops. That's got to tell you the list argument is pointless.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
You've got people not on the list defeating champion riders who were. That's got to tell you the list argument is pointless.

well argued.
my thoughts exactly.
you can't prove a negative now, and you couldn't prove a negative in 84.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Or it tells us that the protocols used may not have been very effective. I tend to believe the latter based on how they did it.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
@ Sniper, I read and understood the entire article and let me put it this way; I never stated that blood doping cold not work in the 80's nor did I state that it was;t used at all. Hoever my conclusions tie in pretty well with the article in that it was not widespread, that the effectiveness was doubtful and that there is no reason to assume that it was used in GT's a lot and that use for one day races, hour records, etc. seems more likely. In know the PDM-story and I also understand that that their blood doping is a far cry from the blood doping we have seen post 2000 with centrifuges being used yo a great extent.

I appreciate you paying homage to David Walsh' "it's more difficult to dope in the GTs" argument. In fairness, you seem to have a bit of a stronger case for the 80s than Walsh has for the 2010s.
Still, I'm not sure it works like that for the guys at the high end with all the money and means in the world at their disposal. But fair enough, I have to grant you that there seems to be little clear-cut evidence of blood doping during GTs in the 80s.
You'll obviously disagree, but arguably the Giro 89 is the best piece of 'evidence' we have wrt blood manipulation in GTs in the 80s. Did you address my point about the correlation between iron shortage and aut. blood transfusions? Or between kidney disorders and anemia? It's not much, I admit. But no reason to discard it either.

I should clarify my use of the term 'widespread'.
Of course you need a good organization and money to set up a GT-winning program. So no, some of the stuff GT winners do will not be widespread in the sense that everybody does it. AICAR, for instance, probably isn't widespread in the peloton at large. It's too expensive for the racers at the low end. But you'll agree it's not farfetched to assume it's widespread at the higher end.
My point would be similar for aut. blood transfusions: done mostly (if not exclusively) by teams and racers with the proper means.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

...
You've got people not on the list defeating champion riders who were. That's got to tell you the list argument is pointless.

well argued.
my thoughts exactly.
you can't prove a negative now, and you couldn't prove a negative in 84.

Well argued my arse.

That only stands to reason if you believe a clean athlete cannot beat a doped athlete.

Maybe Helmut Roole would care to explain Giles Delion to us.

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

...
You've got people not on the list defeating champion riders who were. That's got to tell you the list argument is pointless.

well argued.
my thoughts exactly.
you can't prove a negative now, and you couldn't prove a negative in 84.

The list could also help you argue that they apparently didn't have blood doping down to a tee in '84. Wait a minute, that was being said all along by anybody besides sniper and the other usual suspects when it comes to the Clinic and LeMond. No surprises there.

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

...
@ Sniper, I read and understood the entire article and let me put it this way; I never stated that blood doping cold not work in the 80's nor did I state that it was;t used at all. Hoever my conclusions tie in pretty well with the article in that it was not widespread, that the effectiveness was doubtful and that there is no reason to assume that it was used in GT's a lot and that use for one day races, hour records, etc. seems more likely. In know the PDM-story and I also understand that that their blood doping is a far cry from the blood doping we have seen post 2000 with centrifuges being used yo a great extent.

I appreciate you paying homage to David Walsh' "it's more difficult to dope in the GTs" argument. In fairness, you seem to have a bit of a stronger case for the 80s than Walsh has for the 2010s.
Still, I'm not sure it works like that for the guys at the high end with all the money and means in the world at their disposal. But fair enough, I have to grant you that there seems to be little clear-cut evidence of blood doping during GTs in the 80s.
You'll obviously disagree, but arguably the Giro 89 is the best piece of 'evidence' we have wrt blood manipulation in GTs in the 80s. Did you address my point about the correlation between iron shortage and aut. blood transfusions? Or between kidney disorders and anemia? It's not much, I admit. But no reason to discard it either.

I should clarify my use of the term 'widespread'.
Of course you need a good organization and money to set up a GT-winning program. So no, some of the stuff GT winners do will not be widespread in the sense that everybody does it. AICAR, for instance, probably isn't widespread in the peloton at large. It's too expensive for the racers at the low end. But you'll agree it's not farfetched to assume it's widespread at the higher end.
My point would be similar for aut. blood transfusions: done mostly (if not exclusively) by teams and racers with the proper means.

Make that "it's more difficult to BLOOD dope in the GTs IN THE 80's" and you might actually summarize my point correctly. I'll let the baiting character of you remark pass.

And as for the anemia, blood doping, kidney disorder thingees, are you sure you want to keep arguing that after it was already established that youu mer credibility in that respect and the your understanding of LeMond's condition (and this is still thread about LeMond isn't it?) is woefully lacking. But hey, keep it, the horse may end up even deader.

 

[sniper]

both of you seem to have trouble understanding the fact that even if carpenter wasn't on Eddie's list, it doesn't mean she didnt dope or transfuse.
happy to help you out here.

 

[GJB123]

Re:

both of you seem to have trouble understanding the fact that even if carpenter wasn't on Eddie's list, it doesn't mean she didnt dope or transfuse.
happy to help you out here.

Yes and where did anybody state that for example Carpenter was clean? However you could make the point that Eddie B's transfusions were not as much of a game changer as they were in the 00's when they really got the technique under control. But don't let that argument get in het way of peddling th notion that LeMond must have been blood doping in the 80's. Geez!

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

... But don't let that argument get in het way of peddling th notion that LeMond must have been blood doping in the 80's. Geez!

Seriously, why are you still active in this thread in the first place?
I did a quick check of your contributions to this thread.
Here's the summary:

...
BTW I was wondering why this thread suddenly spring alive again, since just about everything was discussed ad nauseam. Low and behold it is our own interest researcher connecting the (wrong) dots yet again. I can't say I am surprised.

Geez, this thread is still going? Who would have thunk?

...
Close it already. The deed horse has been flogged enough, me thinks.

...
But hey, keep flogging the dead horse, it is dead anyway and that won't change one bit by your posts.

Keep up the good work!

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

...
You've got people not on the list defeating champion riders who were. That's got to tell you the list argument is pointless.

well argued.
my thoughts exactly.
you can't prove a negative now, and you couldn't prove a negative in 84.

Well argued my ****.

That only stands to reason if you believe a clean athlete cannot beat a doped athlete...

Bingo.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

...
You've got people not on the list defeating champion riders who were. That's got to tell you the list argument is pointless.

well argued.
my thoughts exactly.
you can't prove a negative now, and you couldn't prove a negative in 84.

The list could also help you argue that they apparently didn't have blood doping down to a tee in '84...

Yes, and? The point is, there was blood doping within the sphere of influence in which LeMond travelled. That is all I'm saying.

 

[Maxiton]

The efficacy of autologous transfusion in endurance sports was discovered by military doctors in 1947. (To this day, Special Forces operatives transfuse before going on a mission. They call it "blood loading".) You can't tell me that in the years between 1947 and, say, 1977 - thirty years - doctors in cycling hadn't learned of it. In fact, we have documentary evidence that transfusion was being used in cycling on a regular basis in the 1970s. Once they tried it, they would know it worked. When it worked, why would they stop using it?

LeMond is renowned for bringing new ideas and new technology to the peloton. He is renowned for his insistence on playing by the rules - something that in itself is commendable, and that marks him out from his doped-to-the-gills, cheating competitors. But he is also known for going as far as he possibly could within the rules. Given this, as well as his experience with Eddy B ("B" for blood), as well as his father-in-law who was a medical doctor, as well as the regular rest day visits from his wife, it seems likely that he was transfusing in 1986. If so, it doesn't bother me, it's his business. Why? Because it was within the rules. Why wouldn't he? It also seems likely he was using EPO in 89 and 90. Why? For all the above reasons, and because it was within the rules. If he did, though, I certainly don't expect him to advertise it. Why should he?

You people who can't accept such a possibility need to get yourself a little white figurine of LeMond and keep it on your dashboard, so that he can bless you by his presence as you drive. For the rest of us, though, he was a competitor, not a saint, a competitor who played by the rules. That ought to be good enough.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

...
You've got people not on the list defeating champion riders who were. That's got to tell you the list argument is pointless.

well argued.
my thoughts exactly.
you can't prove a negative now, and you couldn't prove a negative in 84.

Well argued my ****.

That only stands to reason if you believe a clean athlete cannot beat a doped athlete...

Bingo.

How convenient you ignored the bit about Giles Delion but then that is hardly a surprise. Probably no idea who he is.

 

[poupou]

When something can be preceived badly by people, we rarely confess it, even if it's within the rules, or we say "I'm not the only, I'm not the first,...".

When Lance was caught, he used it "Greg dit it too"

Has Moser someting tangible on Anquetil's bblood transfusion allegation? I doubt.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

...
You've got people not on the list defeating champion riders who were. That's got to tell you the list argument is pointless.

well argued.
my thoughts exactly.
you can't prove a negative now, and you couldn't prove a negative in 84.

Well argued my ****.

That only stands to reason if you believe a clean athlete cannot beat a doped athlete...

Bingo.

How convenient you ignored the bit about Giles Delion but then that is hardly a surprise. Probably no idea who he is.

It's superfluous to the argument.

 

[sniper]

Re:

When something can be preceived badly by people, we rarely confess it, even if it's within the rules, or we say "I'm not the only, I'm not the first,...".

and history has shown that mostly they're right.

When Lance was caught, he used it "Greg dit it too"

did he? not in public that i know of.

Has Moser someting tangible on Anquetil's bblood transfusion allegation? I doubt.

if only moser had known about eddie's list, he wouldn't have need to smear anquetil.

 

[sniper]

Re:

The efficacy of autologous transfusion in endurance sports was discovered by military doctors in 1947. (To this day, Special Forces operatives transfuse before going on a mission. They call it "blood loading".) You can't tell me that in the years between 1947 and, say, 1977 - thirty years - doctors in cycling hadn't learned of it. In fact, we have documentary evidence that transfusion was being used in cycling on a regular basis in the 1970s. Once they tried it, they would know it worked. When it worked, why would they stop using it?

LeMond is renowned for bringing new ideas and new technology to the peloton. He is renowned for his insistence on playing by the rules - something that in itself is commendable, and that marks him out from his doped-to-the-gills, cheating competitors. But he is also known for going as far as he possibly could within the rules. Given this, as well as his experience with Eddy B ("B" for blood), as well as his father-in-law who was a medical doctor, as well as the regular rest day visits from his wife, it seems likely that he was transfusing in 1986. If so, it doesn't bother me, it's his business. Why? Because it was within the rules. Why wouldn't he? It also seems likely he was using EPO in 89 and 90. Why? For all the above reasons, and because it was within the rules. If he did, though, I certainly don't expect him to advertise it. Why should he?

You people who can't accept such a possibility need to get yourself a little white figurine of LeMond and keep it on your dashboard, so that he can bless you by his presence as you drive. For the rest of us, though, he was a competitor, not a saint, a competitor who played by the rules. That ought to be good enough.

strong post.

his father-in-law who was a medical doctor

what did Alice say again.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

The efficacy of autologous transfusion in endurance sports was discovered by military doctors in 1947. (To this day, Special Forces operatives transfuse before going on a mission. They call it "blood loading".) You can't tell me that in the years between 1947 and, say, 1977 - thirty years - doctors in cycling hadn't learned of it. In fact, we have documentary evidence that transfusion was being used in cycling on a regular basis in the 1970s. Once they tried it, they would know it worked. When it worked, why would they stop using it?

LeMond is renowned for bringing new ideas and new technology to the peloton. He is renowned for his insistence on playing by the rules - something that in itself is commendable, and that marks him out from his doped-to-the-gills, cheating competitors. But he is also known for going as far as he possibly could within the rules. Given this, as well as his experience with Eddy B ("B" for blood), as well as his father-in-law who was a medical doctor, as well as the regular rest day visits from his wife, it seems likely that he was transfusing in 1986. If so, it doesn't bother me, it's his business. Why? Because it was within the rules. Why wouldn't he? It also seems likely he was using EPO in 89 and 90. Why? For all the above reasons, and because it was within the rules. If he did, though, I certainly don't expect him to advertise it. Why should he?

You people who can't accept such a possibility need to get yourself a little white figurine of LeMond and keep it on your dashboard, so that he can bless you by his presence as you drive. For the rest of us, though, he was a competitor, not a saint, a competitor who played by the rules. That ought to be good enough.

strong post.

his father-in-law who was a medical doctor

what did Alice say again.

....and Kathy LeMond was a nurse....and if my memory serves me well her sister was a doctor....a medicine centred family it seems...

Cheers