LeMond III

[red_flanders]

Any evidence surfaced yet? Other than the supposed comments of a guy who's been dead for 20 years? No?

Again, for those espousing the "if you point out there is exactly zero evidence of him doping, blood doping or anything else you must worship Lemond"...no. Again, it's a conclusion. Not a bias, not hero-worship, not blinders. It's simply a conclusion based on the available facts accrued over literally decades.

Get some new facts? New conclusions would surely be drawn. That you need to attack the people shines a bright light on the lack of power in your arguments.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

The efficacy of autologous transfusion in endurance sports was discovered by military doctors in 1947. (To this day, Special Forces operatives transfuse before going on a mission. They call it "blood loading".) You can't tell me that in the years between 1947 and, say, 1977 - thirty years - doctors in cycling hadn't learned of it. In fact, we have documentary evidence that transfusion was being used in cycling on a regular basis in the 1970s. Once they tried it, they would know it worked. When it worked, why would they stop using it?

LeMond is renowned for bringing new ideas and new technology to the peloton. He is renowned for his insistence on playing by the rules - something that in itself is commendable, and that marks him out from his doped-to-the-gills, cheating competitors. But he is also known for going as far as he possibly could within the rules. Given this, as well as his experience with Eddy B ("B" for blood), as well as his father-in-law who was a medical doctor, as well as the regular rest day visits from his wife, it seems likely that he was transfusing in 1986. If so, it doesn't bother me, it's his business. Why? Because it was within the rules. Why wouldn't he? It also seems likely he was using EPO in 89 and 90. Why? For all the above reasons, and because it was within the rules. If he did, though, I certainly don't expect him to advertise it. Why should he?

You people who can't accept such a possibility need to get yourself a little white figurine of LeMond and keep it on your dashboard, so that he can bless you by his presence as you drive. For the rest of us, though, he was a competitor, not a saint, a competitor who played by the rules. That ought to be good enough.

strong post.

his father-in-law who was a medical doctor

what did Alice say again.

....and Kathy LeMond was a nurse....and if my memory serves me well her sister was a doctor....a medical family it seems...

Cheers

I hear the family home was within 10 miles of a hospital (medical facility...) and that he's had a regular doctor since birth. I mean come on people! Do I have to connect the dots!?

Sniper, this is one heck of a hobby you've chosen. Might be a lot more useful to the rest of us if you collected all your data, research and thoughts and *then* posted a well reasoned thesis on the subject. This scattershot approach of tossing out "facts" and "analysis" has really lost any coherence.

My own thoughts: I really, super doubt Lemond resorted to PEDs. He may have been surrounded by the culture, but he rose to fame quickly enough to never have been part of any "system". He started winning as soon as he started racing. Competing and winning as a junior against the men. He turned heads. Nobody, including Eddy B, ever had enough time to take Greg "under their wing" before Guimard whisked him off to Europe. He was an outsider, culturally and linguistically, so I doubt his early years had him brought into any program. And it didn't matter anyways. He started winning and didn't stop until a shotgun and EPO did it for him.

Compare that to Lance, the truly embittered and jealous one. Big talent. Got noticed at the appropriate age and was brought directly into the US Cycling program where He, George, Julich and a host of others were introduced to the latest methods in doping. There's a reason why that generation produced a crop of successful pros that were all within a few years of one another in age. Lance's successes were impressive and entirely drug fueled. But post-cancer he became a laughing-stock. Anyone who had any prior history of the sport knew that they were watching a race horse turn into a Ferrari.

Night and day. Lemond was clean. There were quite a few in the 80's that were.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Re:

Any evidence surfaced yet? Other than the supposed comments of a guy who's been dead for 20 years? No?

Again, for those espousing the "if you point out there is exactly zero evidence of him doping, blood doping or anything else you must worship Lemond"...no. Again, it's a conclusion. Not a bias, not hero-worship, not blinders. It's simply a conclusion based on the available facts accrued over literally decades.

Get some new facts? New conclusions would surely be drawn. That you need to attack the people shines a bright light on the lack of power in your arguments.

Red, I addressed a post explicitly to you ca. two (could be three) pages back and asked you a question there as well.
You see a chance to address it?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
I hear the family home was within 10 miles of a hospital (medical facility...) and that he's had a regular doctor since birth. I mean come on people! Do I have to connect the dots!?

Sniper, this is one heck of a hobby you've chosen. Might be a lot more useful to the rest of us if you collected all your data, research and thoughts and *then* posted a well reasoned thesis on the subject. This scattershot approach of tossing out "facts" and "analysis" has really lost any coherence.

My own thoughts: I really, super doubt Lemond resorted to PEDs. He may have been surrounded by the culture, but he rose to fame quickly enough to never have been part of any "system". He started winning as soon as he started racing. Competing and winning as a junior against the men. He turned heads. Nobody, including Eddy B, ever had enough time to take Greg "under their wing" before Guimard whisked him off to Europe. He was an outsider, culturally and linguistically, so I doubt his early years had him brought into any program. And it didn't matter anyways. He started winning and didn't stop until a shotgun and EPO did it for him.

Compare that to Lance, the truly embittered and jealous one. Big talent. Got noticed at the appropriate age and was brought directly into the US Cycling program where He, George, Julich and a host of others were introduced to the latest methods in doping. There's a reason why that generation produced a crop of successful pros that were all within a few years of one another in age. Lance's successes were impressive and entirely drug fueled. But post-cancer he became a laughing-stock. Anyone who had any prior history of the sport knew that they were watching a race horse turn into a Ferrari.

Night and day. Lemond was clean. There were quite a few in the 80's that were.

John Swanson

John, your number one fan speaking here. Good to hear your opinion as always. I think we agree to a large extent.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: LeMond

Instead of all this 1+1=100, maybe we should have some real insight, not rumours or guessing but some actual real comments and insight.

The first is Paul Koechli, LeMonds DS at La Vie Claire. Koechli was a noted anti-doping advocate and DS for Giles Delion. If people want a modern comparison with Koechli, the closest I can think is Antoine Vayer and that was at a time before anti-doping statements became cool. This was Delions comment on him, "under Koechli, doping was never on the agenda". On why he chose to turn pro with koechli "I knew I could trust someone very honest"

This is a comment from Jean Paul Van Poppel about Koechli's team Helvetia-La Suisse, "I know Paul Koechli's team, they never rode with any vitamins or anything else. He was against all of this. He doesn't like injections".

Koechli on team doctors: "I never had a doctor in my team, except in the Tour de France and his role was to treat only those with a real health problem, a flu or an infection. The presence of a doctor on a team is usually a bad thing"

On La Vie Claire

"About my experience in France, I cannot say no one ever took drugs. I started to change the team because of this reason. The difficulty was that at the time I went to La Vie Claire, the team was already built. I know that Greg when he was in my team did not use any stuff. I say that 200% certain and he won the Tour de France. So you can win the Tour de France without taking drugs. This is important because many riders are dependent. It is like a ritual, they cannot live without them"


I also liked this quote from LeMond himself in 1988 at the end of a poor season. Reading between the lines, I get a certain impression but I am sure others will come up with something different.

"I dont want to be like Eddy Merckx. Id never trade my life for his, or Hinault's for anything-for 10 Tour de France victories. The way I live my life is the way I want to live it. Ive accomplished what I want without the sacrifice of my health and my family. To me that is more important. I want to come out of this at 35 and know my body is still healthy and capable of having a life after cycling".

 

[red_flanders]

Re: LeMond

Instead of all this 1+1=100, maybe we should have some real insight, not rumours or guessing but some actual real comments and insight.

Perfectly phrased.

The first is Paul Koechli, LeMonds DS at La Vie Claire. Koechli was a noted anti-doping advocate and DS for Giles Delion. If people want a modern comparison with Koechli, the closest I can think is Antoine Vayer and that was at a time before anti-doping statements became cool. This was Delions comment on him, "under Koechli, doping was never on the agenda". On why he chose to turn pro with koechli "I knew I could trust someone very honest"

This is a comment from Jean Paul Van Poppel about Koechli's team Helvetia-La Suisse, "I know Paul Koechli's team, they never rode with any vitamins or anything else. He was against all of this. He doesn't like injections".

Koechli on team doctors: "I never had a doctor in my team, except in the Tour de France and his role was to treat only those with a real health problem, a flu or an infection. The presence of a doctor on a team is usually a bad thing"

And here we can see where Lemond got his perspective on how the sport turned "too medical" and his general objection to doctors on teams. He knows exactly what it means.

On La Vie Claire

"About my experience in France, I cannot say no one ever took drugs. I started to change the team because of this reason. The difficulty was that at the time I went to La Vie Claire, the team was already built. I know that Greg when he was in my team did not use any stuff. I say that 200% certain and he won the Tour de France. So you can win the Tour de France without taking drugs. This is important because many riders are dependent. It is like a ritual, they cannot live without them"

Here again you see a coach (or rider) from the era, going out of their way to single out Lemond for being clean. Eddie B, Hampsten, Koechli. Why? Why bother singling him out when either not asked or when clearly not mentioning other top riders on the teams or of the era as clean. Because Lemond was different. Wasn't news 30+ years ago, not news now.

I also liked this quote from LeMond himself in 1988 at the end of a poor season. Reading between the lines, I get a certain impression but I am sure others will come up with something different.

"I dont want to be like Eddy Merckx. Id never trade my life for his, or Hinault's for anything-for 10 Tour de France victories. The way I live my life is the way I want to live it. Ive accomplished what I want without the sacrifice of my health and my family. To me that is more important. I want to come out of this at 35 and know my body is still healthy and capable of having a life after cycling".

Again, perfect. If you've been following the sport as long as some folks, you simply made up your mind a long time ago from the way everyone in the sport talked about it, that Lemond was a different cat and not on 'roids like the rest of them. Are we sure? I'm as sure he was clean as I am Froome isn't. Well maybe not that sure.

 

[sniper]

pmcg: thanks for that, very interesting, and important evidence to consider.
If possible, could you provide some links or sources for your info?

Red & pmcg: any chance you could address the posts directed at you, two or three pages back?
Your contributions, insights and knowledge are highly valued, I think by everybody, but currently what you are doing, with all due respect, has little to do with the concept of debate.
Neither of you have engaged with anything that has been laid out in the past couple of pages or so, which is a pity.
There has been plenty of new infos presented on the previous pages, and one question that we could consider having an open discussion about is: how do we weigh that new information?
In Maxiton's posts he concludes that Lemond was probably clean within the letter of the UCI, yet that it is not out of the ordinary to speculate that he did transfusions in the period when it was still allowed. Again, those posts have remained largely unaddressed by you, from what I can tell.
Sweeping statements along the lines of "I've followed cycling and therefore I know Lemond is clean", at this point of the discussion, do not add much to the discussion, to be honest, other than throwing it back.

For instance, the both of you have dismissed the EPO rumor as meaningless because it belongs to a guy who's dead for 20 years. But in response you have both been presented information suggesting that the rumor was in fact much more widespread. But neither of you have acknowledged receipt of that new info, which, from a debating pov would be fair. It would be good to know, if, having processed that new info, you still find the rumor meaningless, and if so, why?
So as I've pointed out to the both you, the EPO rumor didn't just belong to Dhaenens, even though we refer to it as 'the Dhaenens' rumor. Rather, the rumor seems to have been widespread throughout the peloton in the early 90s through to the mid-2000s. Which doesn't make the rumor true, mind. But is the rumor then still meaningless? If so, it would be interesting, for instance, to hear for instance (a) why you think it is still meaningless, when compared to other rumors, such as the motorization rumor, or (b) to hear your views on how you think the rumor came into existense and became so widespread? You think there was a smearing campaign going on? Or just some huge misunderstanding? Whatever input is welcome.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
....and Kathy LeMond was a nurse....and if my memory serves me well her sister was a doctor....a medicine centred family it seems...

interesting, i had no idea.

Didn't Maxiton say something about Kathy visiting Lemond on GT restdays.
And we know from Eric Boyer that he would rent a separate room for his family and isolate himself from the team on those restdays.

I can't help getting a bit of a Froome-Cound feeling here.
Seeing Kathy holding Greg's hand at the Kimmage interview and answering the tough questions on his behalf, Cound doing the same for Froome seven or eight years later. Funny coincidence.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

we have documentary evidence that transfusion was being used in cycling on a regular basis in the 1970s.

Please, do share with the class your evidence transfusions being used regularly in cycling in the 1970s, it'd be fascinating to read. And please, for regularly used, we need more than Zoetemelk and the fact that Merckx was once offered a transfusion.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Has Moser someting tangible on Anquetil's bblood transfusion allegation? I doubt.

He was referring to Anquetil's well known use of ozone therapy, a form of blood manipulation that is not a transfusion in the sense we know it.

 

[blutto]

Re: LeMond

Instead of all this 1+1=100, maybe we should have some real insight, not rumours or guessing but some actual real comments and insight.

Perfectly phrased.

The first is Paul Koechli, LeMonds DS at La Vie Claire. Koechli was a noted anti-doping advocate and DS for Giles Delion. If people want a modern comparison with Koechli, the closest I can think is Antoine Vayer and that was at a time before anti-doping statements became cool. This was Delions comment on him, "under Koechli, doping was never on the agenda". On why he chose to turn pro with koechli "I knew I could trust someone very honest"

This is a comment from Jean Paul Van Poppel about Koechli's team Helvetia-La Suisse, "I know Paul Koechli's team, they never rode with any vitamins or anything else. He was against all of this. He doesn't like injections".

Koechli on team doctors: "I never had a doctor in my team, except in the Tour de France and his role was to treat only those with a real health problem, a flu or an infection. The presence of a doctor on a team is usually a bad thing"

And here we can see where Lemond got his perspective on how the sport turned "too medical" and his general objection to doctors on teams. He knows exactly what it means.

On La Vie Claire

"About my experience in France, I cannot say no one ever took drugs. I started to change the team because of this reason. The difficulty was that at the time I went to La Vie Claire, the team was already built. I know that Greg when he was in my team did not use any stuff. I say that 200% certain and he won the Tour de France. So you can win the Tour de France without taking drugs. This is important because many riders are dependent. It is like a ritual, they cannot live without them"

Here again you see a coach (or rider) from the era, going out of their way to single out Lemond for being clean. Eddie B, Hampsten, Koechli. Why? Why bother singling him out when either not asked or when clearly not mentioning other top riders on the teams or of the era as clean. Because Lemond was different. Wasn't news 30+ years ago, not news now.

I also liked this quote from LeMond himself in 1988 at the end of a poor season. Reading between the lines, I get a certain impression but I am sure others will come up with something different.

"I dont want to be like Eddy Merckx. Id never trade my life for his, or Hinault's for anything-for 10 Tour de France victories. The way I live my life is the way I want to live it. Ive accomplished what I want without the sacrifice of my health and my family. To me that is more important. I want to come out of this at 35 and know my body is still healthy and capable of having a life after cycling".

Again, perfect. If you've been following the sport as long as some folks, you simply made up your mind a long time ago from the way everyone in the sport talked about it, that Lemond was a different cat and not on 'roids like the rest of them. Are we sure? I'm as sure he was clean as I am Froome isn't. Well maybe not that sure.

....to the bolded....gee that is a most interesting insight into the inner workings of Greg LeMond's mind....how exactly did you get that ?....a time-shifted Vulcan mind meld thingee perhaps....a cynical mind would say you have taken a fanciful projection and magically turned it into a fact to support your position but I of course would never stoop so low...

....what's kinda ironic is the fact that after 87 LeMond did not stay with Koechli and/or a team renowned for being clean but rather signed with a bunch of dodgy characters who became a cesspool of advanced drug-taking ( including the use of EPO in the 88 Tour...and they had team doctors too didn't they, so would seem the Koechli influence rubbed off pretty quick... ).......

Cheers

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Has Moser someting tangible on Anquetil's bblood transfusion allegation? I doubt.

He was referring to Anquetil's well known use of ozone therapy, a form of blood manipulation that is not a transfusion in the sense we know it.

that's possible, perhaps even likely, but not certain.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

that's possible, perhaps even likely, but not certain.

Laugh? I nearly slapped my thigh.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

...
....and Kathy LeMond was a nurse....and if my memory serves me well her sister was a doctor....a medicine centred family it seems...

interesting, i had no idea.

Didn't Maxiton say something about Kathy visiting Lemond on GT restdays.
And we know from Eric Boyer that he would rent a separate room for his family and isolate himself from the team on those restdays.

Now I have to step in and call utter BS.

I conducted the Boyer interview. What he meant was that when they were 9 riders, Greg had the lonely room, which makes sense since he's the team leader. When a teammate did quit, or they were in even numbers, Greg went back to sharing the room with Eric Boyer. Greg never "isolated" himself. BS.

The fact that Greg was the first to have his family is noticeable in terms of culture. At the time it was frowned upon. Kelly even inflicted himself a 2 weeks no sex rule before a big race. Again, pure BS. Going from "spending time with my family" to "suspicious activities" is outrageous. I have pics of Greg with his baby from such a day. Does it count as evidence ???

Be careful not to put words and/or your own ideas in other people's mouths.

As for the Dhaenens rumour. I would like it to remain what it is : a RUMOUR ! Remember that girl in college that refused to have sex with the football marvel ? He said she was a slut, then someone else said he'd done it with her and by the end of the first semester you had a list of partners and the price they had paid. Rumours are created and spread and escalate because people like to feel important and need an excuse to do bad thing. This rumour, as such, should be taken as anything. When I read the word "evidence" right next to it, I call BS again. In fact, by spreading and escalating the rumour yourself, you are guilty of diffamation, if only in my opinion.

Once again, I'll say that trying to bend the reality so that it fits your theory is a poor and dangerous way of investigating.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: LeMond

....what's kinda ironic is the fact that after 87 LeMond did not stay with Koechli and/or a team renowned for being clean but rather signed with a bunch of dodgy characters who became a cesspool of advanced drug-taking ( including the use of EPO in the 88 Tour...and they had team doctors too didn't they, so would seem the Koechli influence rubbed off pretty quick... ).......

Cheers

I guess you missed the part where he left PDM after contractual disputes and an unwillingness to conform to the team "culture", citing how the sport had become "too medical". If you're going to tell the story, at least tell the whole story. He's been talking about the doctors and how the sport got too medical ever since. You must have missed that as well. Back then, no one really understood what he meant. When EPO blew up, all the things Lemond had been saying over and over started to make sense, fitting into a wider narrative and understanding about what was going on.

You guys are trying to connect dots 30+ years after the fact viewing it through the lens of the sport in its modern incarnation. It makes no sense, the current warps the view of the past. Many seem to have no sense of how it looked and felt at the time.

Still waiting for any remotely credible evidence of doping. Let me know when you get some, I will certainly change or re-examine my view at that point and weigh it against the substantial evidence that he didn't dope.

 

[thehog]

Re: LeMond

....what's kinda ironic is the fact that after 87 LeMond did not stay with Koechli and/or a team renowned for being clean but rather signed with a bunch of dodgy characters who became a cesspool of advanced drug-taking ( including the use of EPO in the 88 Tour...and they had team doctors too didn't they, so would seem the Koechli influence rubbed off pretty quick... ).......

Cheers

I guess you missed the part where he left PDM after contractual disputes and an unwillingness to conform to the team "culture", citing how the sport had become "too medical". If you're going to tell the story, at least tell the whole story. He's been talking about the doctors and how the sport got too medical ever since. You must have missed that as well. Back then, no one really understood what he meant. When EPO blew up, all the things Lemond had been saying over and over started to make sense, fitting into a wider narrative and understanding about what was going on.

You guys are trying to connect dots 30+ years after the fact viewing it through the lens of the sport in its modern incarnation. It makes no sense, the current warps the view of the past. Many seem to have no sense of how it looked and felt at the time.

Still waiting for any remotely credible evidence of doping. Let me know when you get some, I will certainly change or re-examine my view at that point and weigh it against the substantial evidence that he didn't dope.

To be fair...

...where he left PDM after contractual disputes and an unwillingness to conform to the team "culture", citing how the sport had become "too medical".

Has no solid grounding or a link.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Y'all still sniffing Greg's seat over here? I thought this thread was all about another way to bash Lance via Greg?

ANYwho whataya think would have happened back in Eddie M. and Bernard H. days if we had all the digital communication of today? Seems to put in perspective any type day dreaming of the "clean" glory days of Eddie, Bernard, Greg etc.....into perspective.

 

[blutto]

Re: LeMond

....what's kinda ironic is the fact that after 87 LeMond did not stay with Koechli and/or a team renowned for being clean but rather signed with a bunch of dodgy characters who became a cesspool of advanced drug-taking ( including the use of EPO in the 88 Tour...and they had team doctors too didn't they, so would seem the Koechli influence rubbed off pretty quick... ).......

Cheers

I guess you missed the part where he left PDM after contractual disputes and an unwillingness to conform to the team "culture", citing how the sport had become "too medical". If you're going to tell the story, at least tell the whole story. He's been talking about the doctors and how the sport got too medical ever since. You must have missed that as well. Back then, no one really understood what he meant. When EPO blew up, all the things Lemond had been saying over and over started to make sense, fitting into a wider narrative and understanding about what was going on.

You guys are trying to connect dots 30+ years after the fact viewing it through the lens of the sport in its modern incarnation. It makes no sense, the current warps the view of the past. Many seem to have no sense of how it looked and felt at the time.

Still waiting for any remotely credible evidence of doping. Let me know when you get some, I will certainly change or re-examine my view at that point and weigh it against the substantial evidence that he didn't dope.

To be fair...

...where he left PDM after contractual disputes and an unwillingness to conform to the team "culture", citing how the sport had become "too medical".

Has no solid grounding or a link.

...yeah to be fair that was his lawyer talkin'...but then its well known that lawyers always tell the truth, just like politicians always keep their promises....so it has to be true eh...

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

...
....and Kathy LeMond was a nurse....and if my memory serves me well her sister was a doctor....a medicine centred family it seems...

interesting, i had no idea.

Didn't Maxiton say something about Kathy visiting Lemond on GT restdays.
And we know from Eric Boyer that he would rent a separate room for his family and isolate himself from the team on those restdays.

Now I have to step in and call utter BS.

I conducted the Boyer interview. What he meant was that when they were 9 riders, Greg had the lonely room, which makes sense since he's the team leader. When a teammate did quit, or they were in even numbers, Greg went back to sharing the room with Eric Boyer. Greg never "isolated" himself. BS.

The fact that Greg was the first to have his family is noticeable in terms of culture. At the time it was frowned upon. Kelly even inflicted himself a 2 weeks no sex rule before a big race. Again, pure BS. Going from "spending time with my family" to "suspicious activities" is outrageous. I have pics of Greg with his baby from such a day. Does it count as evidence ???

Be careful not to put words and/or your own ideas in other people's mouths.

As for the Dhaenens rumour. I would like it to remain what it is : a RUMOUR ! Remember that girl in college that refused to have sex with the football marvel ? He said she was a ****, then someone else said he'd done it with her and by the end of the first semester you had a list of partners and the price they had paid. Rumours are created and spread and escalate because people like to feel important and need an excuse to do bad thing. This rumour, as such, should be taken as anything. When I read the word "evidence" right next to it, I call BS again. In fact, by spreading and escalating the rumour yourself, you are guilty of diffamation, if only in my opinion.

Once again, I'll say that trying to bend the reality so that it fits your theory is a poor and dangerous way of investigating.

...so are you sayin' Boyer rode for LaVie Claire, PDM and ADR....hmmm, never knew that....

Cheers

 

[red_flanders]

Re: LeMond

To be fair...

...


Has no solid grounding or a link.

Drug use said to concern Lemond (LA Times, 1989)
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond

Although LeMond's break with PDM, the sport's dominant team, was primarily the result of a financial dispute, Ron Stanko of Reading, Pa., said the cyclist was believed to be out of the contract before this year because of his philosophical differences with the team's officials regarding banned substances.

He said LeMond was particularly bothered by the team's insistence that he use testosterone, a naturally produced male hormone that some cyclists believe will replenish their strength when injected into their systems. Cyclists are penalized if an excessive amount of testosterone is discovered in their urine samples during drug tests.

Of course PDM threatens with a "judicial problem", but never sues. What a shocker.

 

[blutto]

Re:

Y'all still sniffing Greg's seat over here? I thought this thread was all about another way to bash Lance via Greg?

ANYwho whataya think would have happened back in Eddie M. and Bernard H. days if we had all the digital communication of today? Seems to put in perspective any type day dreaming of the "clean" glory days of Eddie, Bernard, Greg etc.....into perspective.

...oh, so that is what the memo was meant to say...because in the memo I got someone forget to include "Lance via"...it was an honest mistake, what can I say....whoops....

Cheers

 

[thehog]

Re: LeMond

To be fair...

...


Has no solid grounding or a link.

Drug use said to concern Lemond (LA Times, 1989)
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond

Although LeMond's break with PDM, the sport's dominant team, was primarily the result of a financial dispute, Ron Stanko of Reading, Pa., said the cyclist was believed to be out of the contract before this year because of his philosophical differences with the team's officials regarding banned substances.

He said LeMond was particularly bothered by the team's insistence that he use testosterone, a naturally produced male hormone that some cyclists believe will replenish their strength when injected into their systems. Cyclists are penalized if an excessive amount of testosterone is discovered in their urine samples during drug tests.

Of course PDM threatens with a "judicial problem", but never sues. What a shocker.

You are always so serious when it comes to LeMond

Not seeing "culture" or "too medical" as you described in the linked article.

I guess the irony was LeMond was having "iron shots" at the time of this article, so he can't have been too bothered by the "culture' or "too medical" nature of it all.

I guess that's another story though... from the same article you linked;

where LeMond, representing the ADR team of Belgium, had made a remarkable comeback 24 hours earlier to win the Tour de France, the sport's most prestigious race, for the second time since 1986.

 

[blutto]

Re: LeMond

To be fair...

...


Has no solid grounding or a link.

Drug use said to concern Lemond (LA Times, 1989)
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond

Although LeMond's break with PDM, the sport's dominant team, was primarily the result of a financial dispute, Ron Stanko of Reading, Pa., said the cyclist was believed to be out of the contract before this year because of his philosophical differences with the team's officials regarding banned substances.

He said LeMond was particularly bothered by the team's insistence that he use testosterone, a naturally produced male hormone that some cyclists believe will replenish their strength when injected into their systems. Cyclists are penalized if an excessive amount of testosterone is discovered in their urine samples during drug tests.

Of course PDM threatens with a "judicial problem", but never sues. What a shocker.

....so this Ron Stanko lawyer person, who is professionally involved in world of track and field and with the required gravity, can say, as part of the LeMond/PDM back and forth that, " track and field is relatively clean compared to professional cycling." and still be seen as a totally believable stand-up kinda guy....guess it depends on whatever definition of relatively clean you are working from....and btw how on earth would he know ?....and if you come back with well its common knowledge you have to ask yourself why on earth is Mr Clean riding for PDM ( I mean you'd blow positive after just shaking hands with those guys...they were literally soaked in incriminating evidence....they glowed at night they were such a heat score... )...

...as for why no suit, maybe Stanko never ventured into Benelux to be served papers....or maybe we should look at what was actually said...

""He should watch what he says," Jansen said by telephone from the Netherlands. "He might have a judicial problem."

...not a lawyer but "might have" does not easily translate into papers have been served and you are to appear in court or anything more than "your momma wears army boots"...just sayin' eh...

Cheers

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Now I have to step in and call utter BS.

I conducted the Boyer interview. What he meant was that when they were 9 riders, Greg had the lonely room, which makes sense since he's the team leader. When a teammate did quit, or they were in even numbers, Greg went back to sharing the room with Eric Boyer. Greg never "isolated" himself. BS.

The fact that Greg was the first to have his family is noticeable in terms of culture. At the time it was frowned upon. Kelly even inflicted himself a 2 weeks no sex rule before a big race. Again, pure BS. Going from "spending time with my family" to "suspicious activities" is outrageous.

Although we disagree on the interpretation of different pieces of information, and how to weigh these pieces of info (evidence, no evidence, etc.), I have to give you credit for at least normally addressing the arguments being put forward by me and some others.

I stand at least partially corrected wrt Lemond 'isolating' himself, though I definitely think the rest days would be an interesting aspect to look at more closely.
For the record: I don't think it was 'suspicious behaviour'. I do think his father-in-law being an MD and Kathy being a nurse is, well, an interesting fact.
The point I was making is: if, and I stress IF, Lemond would have wanted to gear up or transfuse during GT rest days, he seems to have had the opportunity to do so without his teammates knowing.
In part that is a response to gjb123's suggestion that transfusing during GTs in the 80s would have been complicated to organize.
Whether Lemond actually did gear up or transfuse is a totally different question. Just saying, imo, he could , if he wanted.

As for the Dhaenens rumour. I would like it to remain what it is : a RUMOUR ! Remember that girl in college that refused to have sex with the football marvel ? He said she was a ****, then someone else said he'd done it with her and by the end of the first semester you had a list of partners and the price they had paid. Rumours are created and spread and escalate because people like to feel important and need an excuse to do bad thing. This rumour, as such, should be taken as anything. When I read the word "evidence" right next to it, I call BS again. In fact, by spreading and escalating the rumour yourself, you are guilty of diffamation, if only in my opinion.

Yes, it's a rumor. I know, and I said that everytime I posted about it.
But so is the use of motorized bikes and AICAR among pro's.
btw, if you check the definition of "evidence", you'll have to agree that an EPO rumor running through the peloton is indeed evidence. Whether the EPO rumor is WEAK or STRONG evidence, is a different matter, and I guess to some extent a matter of taste. Also depends on whether, and if so how, we factor in other pieces of info, such as the timing of the introduction of EPO combined with the timing of the iron shot episode, and combined with his kidney disorder. Imo, these pieces of info/evidence should not be considered in isolation.

I respect your view on the EPO rumor, and don't necessarily disagree with your take on it, but will remain on the fence with an inclination towards skeptical.

 

[thehog]

Re: LeMond

"Serial phone call recorder sans consent and refuser to answer questions at a USADA trial witness, Greg LeMond says he never doped as it would be ethically wrong"