LeMond III

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...Then as now people sought the genetically gifted.

i agree. And i think this is obvious. So what's your point? Or just more trolling?

Or - though it sn't explicitly mentioned - one cannot rule out that they were looking for witches. The references are so many and so obvious I don't need to point them out.

It's a petty you prefer off topic trolling over contributing content, especially considering you're far more knowledgeable on this topic than most of us (well at least than me).

 

[sniper]

From Feargal McKay's "History of Blood Doping":

And complementing the use of creatine in anaerobic sports the Soviets were on top of the use of transfusions in aerobic competitions. Evidence discovered by Michael Kalinski in State-Sponsored Research on Creatine Supplements and Blood Doping in Elite Soviet Sport showed that blood transfusions were a major weapon in the Soviet's doping armoury at the Montreal Games.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/a-history-on-the-use-of-blood-transfusions-in-cycling/

So Russians were on top of blood doping since at least the 1976 Montreal Games.
Then Irving Dardik and Gideon Ariel come to the fore, explicitly stating the need for blood doping (and other doping) in their quest to secure funding for the OTC (later founded in 1978).
Then Greg Lemond signs up for the OTC in 1978.
In addition to Dardik and Ariel, we have Eddie B, Costill, Hagerman, and Burke in the mix to look after Greg.
Then in the early 80s Lemond starts beating those pesky blood doping Russian cyclists.

From the man himself:

And then just shortly after that we flew back with the Renault team to the Coors Classic which had the Russian Olympic Gold Medalist.

CB: Soukouroutchenkov?

GL: Soukouroutchenkov and Barinov [1980 Olympic bronze medallist] and the whole Russian team, which for me was, for me, a test to see who would have been the Olympic champion. This was my real revenge on missing the Olympics. I can't believe we actually boycotted the Olympics because they invaded Afghanstan. We've invaded 2 countries and nobody has boycotted anything right now.

That race I ended up winning, I don't know how much time I took out of Soukouroutchenkov, something like 10 minutes. We went head to head. Me against 4 Russians on the Morgul Bismark course. They tried every which way to drop me and every time they would attack I'd chase one guy down. I would slow down just before I caught him. And then as the other group caught up, just before they caught up I'd do an attack and drop everybody. Then I'd slow down and then when they would catch me they'd send somebody off and the immediately I'd go after him.
http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

All on bread and water?
If so, well that's definitive proof that you can in fact beat highly doped competitors just by hard work and a good diet!
Sky might be clean after all.

 

[Tienus]

Prior to 1978, blood storage was limited to 21 days. In 1978, CPDA-1 additive stretched that to 35 days. In 1983 that was extended with another additive to 42 days. http://www.mahasbtc.com/preservation-and-storage-blood

In this article Falsetti claims he could store blood for 3 to 4 months during the 84 olympics. The US riders could not do this as in that period they had to qualify for the games.
http://articles.latimes.com/1985-01-12/sports/sp-9609_1_transfusions/2

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

Sure, blood boosting is not mentioned explicitly and there is no link to the blood boosting study from Ekblom from 1972.

Yes, those are the salient points. And the article was written to be read by his peers, not written for public consumption. Scientific papers are not designed to be read between the lines for hidden meaning like the Da Vinci code IMO. Your grasping at straws to make this connection. Especially considering how poorly the US rowing team performed while he was working with them. Still waiting for facts to support your assertion...

 

[sniper]

you see grasping at straws, i see plausible deduction.

Hagerman was doing altitude research for the US army in the late 60s.
Are you telling me that was unrelated to blood boosting?
Then in the late 70s he's there being recruited by Dardik who explicitly called for blood doping and he's there doing the physiological testing on Eric Heiden who even tdf86winner believes was blood doping (as per "Wheelmen").

as for why he didn't reference the Ekblom 1972 blood boosting study: at best it suggests he was aware of the sensitivity of the subject. (see discussion in the blood doping thread, Astrand denying it was happening in 1973, etc.)

I know *** about rowing, but the following is an interesting summary of his achievements as physiologist of US rowing:
http://archive.usrowing.org/news/details/13-10-29/A_Doctor_of_Physical_Details_Fritz_Hagerman_is_the_2013_Jack_Kelly_Award_Winner.aspx
Considerable achievements. The history of US olympic sports is riddled with doping, so you need to come up with more arguments if you think Hagerman didn't dirty his hands.

 

[djpbaltimore]

This has been hashed over before so I'm not going to address it again at length.

From 1968 to 2000, the men's 8s failed to win gold (even in the boycotted 1984 race) after winning gold in 11 of the 14 olympics that preceded it. That era is the core of his tenure. The article suggests that his main achievements were his longevity and caring spirit, which are both admirable. The results are not consistent with a doping program that is top of the line IMO. The evidence linking him to blood doping is threadbare. We've previously agreed that most physiologists do not cross the line into actual doping, ergo......

 

[sniper]

Re:

This has been hashed over before so I'm not going to address it again at length.

From 1968 to 2000, the men's 8s failed to win gold (even in the boycotted 1984 race) after winning gold in 11 of the 14 olympics that preceded it. That era is the core of his tenure. The article suggests that his main achievements were his longevity and caring spirit, which are both admirable. The results are not consistent with a doping program that is top of the line IMO.

i can agree to this.

The evidence linking him to blood doping is threadbare.

If you think he was only into steroids, so be it. He's not a principal character in this saga anyway. He's just one of many shady characters with direct links to doping surrounding Lemond.

We've previously agreed that most physiologists do not cross the line into actual doping, ergo......

Yes we have, but I thought that concerned all physiologists world-wide. I would argue that the majority of physiologists working at the top end, i.e. with elite pros, do cross the line into doping.
Similarly, I'd argue the VAST majority of athletes world wide are clean.
But I also argue the vast majority of elite pros are doping.
The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

From Feargal McKay's "History of Blood Doping":

And complementing the use of creatine in anaerobic sports the Soviets were on top of the use of transfusions in aerobic competitions. Evidence discovered by Michael Kalinski in State-Sponsored Research on Creatine Supplements and Blood Doping in Elite Soviet Sport showed that blood transfusions were a major weapon in the Soviet's doping armoury at the Montreal Games.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/a-history-on-the-use-of-blood-transfusions-in-cycling/

So Russians were on top of blood doping since at least the 1976 Montreal Games.
Then Irving Dardik and Gideon Ariel come to the fore, explicitly stating the need for blood doping (and other doping) in their quest to secure funding for the OTC (later founded in 1978).
Then Greg Lemond signs up for the OTC in 1978.
In addition to Dardik and Ariel, we have Eddie B, Costill, Hagerman, and Burke in the mix to look after Greg.
Then in the early 80s Lemond starts beating those pesky blood doping Russian cyclists.

From the man himself:

And then just shortly after that we flew back with the Renault team to the Coors Classic which had the Russian Olympic Gold Medalist.

CB: Soukouroutchenkov?

GL: Soukouroutchenkov and Barinov [1980 Olympic bronze medallist] and the whole Russian team, which for me was, for me, a test to see who would have been the Olympic champion. This was my real revenge on missing the Olympics. I can't believe we actually boycotted the Olympics because they invaded Afghanstan. We've invaded 2 countries and nobody has boycotted anything right now.

That race I ended up winning, I don't know how much time I took out of Soukouroutchenkov, something like 10 minutes. We went head to head. Me against 4 Russians on the Morgul Bismark course. They tried every which way to drop me and every time they would attack I'd chase one guy down. I would slow down just before I caught him. And then as the other group caught up, just before they caught up I'd do an attack and drop everybody. Then I'd slow down and then when they would catch me they'd send somebody off and the immediately I'd go after him.
http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

All on bread and water?
If so, well that's definitive proof that you can in fact beat highly doped competitors just by hard work and a good diet!
Sky might be clean after all.

You realise that in the World Amateur Championships of 1985, Paul Kimmage finished ahead of every single Soviet and East German Rider. Where does that leave clean riders beating doped riders?

 

[sniper]

Do you have a link?
And was Paul clean?
If he was, and if what you're saying is true, then you have a fair point.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

Do you have a link?
And was Paul clean?
If he was, and if what you're saying is true, then you have a fair point.

Are you now claiming Rough Ride was a complete fabrication?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Do you have a link?
And was Paul clean?
If he was, and if what you're saying is true, then you have a fair point.

Are you now claiming Rough Ride was a complete fabrication?

So no link?

As for Kimmage, I believe he's admitted to taking PEDs, no?

And even so, it still doesn't make Lemond's performances anywhere near credible.
My point being: if a clean Lemond sweeping up a (blood) doped field of competitors in the 80s is credible, then so is Team Sky doing it anno 2012-2016.

 

[Irondan]

Enough of the baiting.....

Any more and we will discuss taking action.

Please continue your conversation without baiting each other and evading direct questions.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

Enough of the baiting.....

Any more and we will discuss taking action.

Please continue your conversation without baiting each other and evading direct questions.

Who exactly is baiting here? Sniper posted about LeMond beating USSR riders and I made the point that Kimmage beat all the Soviets and East Germans at the Worlds in 85. That is not the kind of thing someone can make up or misrepresent. Is posting facts now considered baiting? Kimmage is widely regarded as being a clean rider in the clinic, but then you have sniper questioning this just for the sake of it as he is well aware of Kimmages reputation. How is it sniper can google all sorts of stuff but cannot find World Championships results??

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Kimmage has admitted to taking PEDs.
This is not controversial.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kimmage

In May 1990, Kimmage published Rough Ride, detailing his experiences as a domestique which included references to drug use, including his own.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

Kimmage has admitted to taking PEDs.
This is not controversial.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kimmage

In May 1990, Kimmage published Rough Ride, detailing his experiences as a domestique which included references to drug use, including his own.

Have you actually read Rough Ride?

 

[djpbaltimore]

Pretty impressive ride by Kimmage. For reference.....

As was the usual scenario with the World Championships, the race became a war of attrition with the 200 starters being gradually whittled down. Kimmage made an attempt to go clear half-way through the race but was reeled back in. Just 29 riders remained in contention coming into the last lap.

Unfortunately, Kimmage suffered a slow puncture and noticed the deflating tyre in the last kilometre. He had to ride on regardless, knowing if he stopped to change his wheel his chances of a result would be gone.

He described the sprint thus in his award-winning autobiography, A Rough Ride:

“The Polish rider Lech Piasecki passed me like a bomb but as the line approached, no one else arrived and I thought: ‘Christ I’m going to get a medal.’ But then a Danish rider, Weltz, passed, then a Belgian, another Dane and an Italian, Maurizio Fondriest. I crossed the line and counted. Six. Sixth in the world. The sixth best amateur in the whole f****** world. I was overjoyed. It was the summit of my career.”

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/paul-kimmages-1985-world-champs-the-sixth-best-amateur-in-the-whole-fcking-world/

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Kimmage has admitted to taking PEDs.
This is not controversial.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kimmage

In May 1990, Kimmage published Rough Ride, detailing his experiences as a domestique which included references to drug use, including his own.

And if we know two things about drugs, it's that they impact your performance forever and if you took drugs once, you must have taken them multiple: once a doper, always a doper. QED it follows that the man was doping when he beat the hell out of all those doped Communists. And all the Irish riders on the Rás who time to time got the better of those doped Communists, they too were clearly doped up to their eyeballs. These facts we know to be true.

 

[sniper]

The other thing is, unlike Lemond, Kimmage did actually get beaten by dopers in that 1985 race.

The 24 year-old Polish mechanic Piasecki held on for the win with Johnny Weltz in second and Frank Van de Vijver in third. Brian Holm was fourth with the 1988 World Professional Champion Maurizio Fondriest finishing one place ahead of Kimmage.
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/paul-kimmages-1985-world-champs-the-sixth-best-amateur-in-the-whole-fcking-world/

Bottomline: while I appreciate you pointing out that a presumably clean Kimmage was able to stay ahead of a bunch of dopers, the comparison with Lemond is still flawed. Even if Kimmage was 100% clean (an idea I don't have any issues with), he had a more or less unique result there. Whereas Lemond was beating (blood) dopers on a regular basis, many years in a row.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

The other thing is, unlike Lemond, Kimmage did actually get beaten by dopers in that 1985 race.

The 24 year-old Polish mechanic Piasecki held on for the win with Johnny Weltz in second and Frank Van de Vijver in third. Brian Holm was fourth with the 1988 World Professional Champion Maurizio Fondriest finishing one place ahead of Kimmage.
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/paul-kimmages-1985-world-champs-the-sixth-best-amateur-in-the-whole-fcking-world/

Bottomline: while I appreciate you pointing out that a presumably clean Kimmage was able to stay ahead of a bunch of dopers, the comparison with Lemond is still flawed. Kimmage had a unique result there. Whereas Lemond was beating (blood) dopers on a regular basis, many years in a row.

I would think that guys who were(allegedly) doping should be doing more than beating a clean rider in a sprint. Look down the finishing list and I am sure you will see a lot of dopers Kimmage beat as well.

 

[sniper]

To add to that:
imho, Kimmage's story shows that you can race clean(ish) and have some impressive results if you are a great talent, but only sporadically; without dope you can never keep up the high level over a longer period of several months. Let alone over a period of more than a decade.
A similar case in point c/would be Colin Sturgess, someone whom I am also willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

To add to that:
imho, Kimmage's story shows that you can race clean(ish) and have some impressive results if you are a great talent, but only sporadically; without dope you can never keep up the high level over a longer period of several months. Let alone over a period of more than a decade.
A similar case in point c/would be Colin Sturgess, someone whom I am also willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

Except LeMond wasn't regarded as a great talent, he was regarded as an extraordinary talent. Outside of the Soviets at the Coors Classic, who were all these other blood dopers he was beating?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Except LeMond wasn't regarded as a great talent, he was regarded as an extraordinary talent.

extraordinary talent? That argument is circular, given there's a good chance he doped to earn himself that label.

Outside of the Soviets at the Coors Classic, who were all these other blood dopers he was beating?

During his carreer you mean? If you read through Feargal's trilogy on blood doping, parts 1 and 2, that'll give you a first (non-exhaustive) batch of names of blood dopers beaten by Lemond.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

From Feargal McKay's "History of Blood Doping":

And complementing the use of creatine in anaerobic sports the Soviets were on top of the use of transfusions in aerobic competitions. Evidence discovered by Michael Kalinski in State-Sponsored Research on Creatine Supplements and Blood Doping in Elite Soviet Sport showed that blood transfusions were a major weapon in the Soviet's doping armoury at the Montreal Games.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/a-history-on-the-use-of-blood-transfusions-in-cycling/

So Russians were on top of blood doping since at least the 1976 Montreal Games.
Then Irving Dardik and Gideon Ariel come to the fore, explicitly stating the need for blood doping (and other doping) in their quest to secure funding for the OTC (later founded in 1978).
Then Greg Lemond signs up for the OTC in 1978.
In addition to Dardik and Ariel, we have Eddie B, Costill, Hagerman, and Burke in the mix to look after Greg.
Then in the early 80s Lemond starts beating those pesky blood doping Russian cyclists.

From the man himself:

And then just shortly after that we flew back with the Renault team to the Coors Classic which had the Russian Olympic Gold Medalist.

CB: Soukouroutchenkov?

GL: Soukouroutchenkov and Barinov [1980 Olympic bronze medallist] and the whole Russian team, which for me was, for me, a test to see who would have been the Olympic champion. This was my real revenge on missing the Olympics. I can't believe we actually boycotted the Olympics because they invaded Afghanstan. We've invaded 2 countries and nobody has boycotted anything right now.

That race I ended up winning, I don't know how much time I took out of Soukouroutchenkov, something like 10 minutes. We went head to head. Me against 4 Russians on the Morgul Bismark course. They tried every which way to drop me and every time they would attack I'd chase one guy down. I would slow down just before I caught him. And then as the other group caught up, just before they caught up I'd do an attack and drop everybody. Then I'd slow down and then when they would catch me they'd send somebody off and the immediately I'd go after him.
http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

All on bread and water?
If so, well that's definitive proof that you can in fact beat highly doped competitors just by hard work and a good diet!
Sky might be clean after all.

There needs to be some deconstruction here.

The entire monologue about the Russians has no bearing on what the US was doing. I know you'll scoff, but you're making broad connections where none exist. If they did, I'm sure you could document them.

Next.

Quote: "Then Irving Dardik and Gideon Ariel come to the fore, explicitly stating the need for blood doping (and other doping) in their quest to secure funding for the OTC (later founded in 1978). "

Besides the obvious need for citation, it appears you made a statement of fact(s) that doesn't bear scrutiny much less make sense. Take for example, Gideon Ariel. He's into biomechanics and computer science. To whit, "When the development of the personal computer in the early 1980's allowed the widespread use of his technology, Dr. Ariel began limited marketing of the Ariel Computerized Exercise System (CES). Computerized Biomechanical Analysis, Inc. (CBA), since its inception, has been a leader in software development and scientific research (50,51,59,72)." http://www.arielnet.com/company/founder

What did Gideon do for the USOC? "At that time, the enthusiastic Head of the Sports Medicine Committee was Dr. Irving Dardik and Dr. Ariel served with him as the Founding Chairman of Biomechanics (1976-1984)."

Where's the blood, sniper?

Next.

Quote: "In addition to Dardik and Ariel, we have Eddie B, Costill, Hagerman, and Burke in the mix to look after Greg."

I would love to have you show that Greg has ever met any of these people, other than Eddie B of course. And once you do that, it falls on you to show what the nature of their relationship was. See, you've stated as fact that all these people are connected to blood doping and that they were taking care of Greg. But it's not fact. In fact, a lot of it is provably false. The more you tug at the strings of your statements, the more the connections you make unravel.

And to make a prediction: You're going to say that I "make a lot of good points" and then ignore this for a week or two. Then you'll go back to making the exact same false and/or unsupported statements, treating them as fact.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

No, tbh, no good points in this one.
All references to ariel and dardik are there in the US cycling scene thread, which I expect you to have read. Or maybe you felt you didn't need to read it, you just know Lemond was clean?
Will post some links tomorrow if necessary.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

No, tbh, no good points in this one.
All references to ariel and dardik are there in the US cycling scene thread, which I expect you to have read, seeing how convinced you still are he was clean.
Will post some links tomorrow if necessary.

Yeah, they're necessary.

John Swanson