LeMond III

[StyrbjornSterki]

...The only source we have for his alleged 90+ V02max is Lemond himself....

Do you have proof of this claim, or are we expected to extend to you the benefit of the doubt that you begrudge to Lemond? Because at present, the only source we have for this claim is you yourself.

The upshot is, you've laid claim to a negative proof. And either you don't comprehend the enormity of the breadth of the research that would be needed to prove what you allege (no, your English-only Google search isn't a drop in the bucket), or you must think the rest of us too numpty to recognise a feint when we see one.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

people had major trouble stomaching the relative strength of the communist countries, and one response to that was to accuse the Soviets and Germans of foul play.

Replace "communist countries" and "Soviets and Germans" with .... on .... I dunno, Team Sky, Chris Froome, Greg LeMond, whoever you want really...

Sure. It's called an arms race.

Anyhow, from what I understand this "USA vs. pesky doping EAstblockers" arms race is the context in which the Amateur Sports Act and by extension the OTC, etc. came into being, with a particular motivation and awareness on the part of USOC to keep certain 'scientific' practices under the lid, so that this "good Americans vs. pesky doping Russians" narrative could be maintained. Hence the internal testing put in place by Don Miller. (Yes, there is some irony to the 84 scandal.)
And imo this also marks the beginnings of what would later turn into more pronounced antidoping PR.
USOC preaching a kind of "perception is reality" avant la lettre.

But none of this is really straightforward. And i think counterexample are easy to find. Iirc you had a good post recently pointing out that some were more aware than others of potential ethical issues with (blood)doping.

 

[MarkvW]

Re: Re:

people had major trouble stomaching the relative strength of the communist countries, and one response to that was to accuse the Soviets and Germans of foul play.

Replace "communist countries" and "Soviets and Germans" with .... on .... I dunno, Team Sky, Chris Froome, Greg LeMond, whoever you want really...

Clear difference between East German doping and professional athlete doping is consent. East German doping ruined many lives. Athletic records mean nothing, anyway.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

Kimmage has admitted to taking PEDs.
This is not controversial.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kimmage

In May 1990, Kimmage published Rough Ride, detailing his experiences as a domestique which included references to drug use, including his own.

And if we know two things about drugs, it's that they impact your performance forever and if you took drugs once, you must have taken them multiple: once a doper, always a doper. QED it follows that the man was doping when he beat the hell out of all those doped Communists. And all the Irish riders on the Rás who time to time got the better of those doped Communists, they too were clearly doped up to their eyeballs. These facts we know to be true.

of the finishers in the pro ranks in 1985 world champs, there are no communist countries represented...
Similarly the top ten of the amateur version of this race (Kimmage's 6th position) contains no communist countries being represented...
I can't find the full list of finishers for the amateur wc of 85 - Can anyone find this list and confirm what communist riders Kimmage actually beat in that race?

Poland was part of the Eastern Bloc and Lech Piasecki won, so not sure why you think there are no Communist countries represented in the top 10. Communist riders were not allowed to turn pro back then, so there were no riders in the pro race. In the amateur race, Falk Boden(GDR)a mainstay of East German teams is 12th, Sergei Uslamine(USSR) 22nd and Marek Seyzerinski(Pol) 20th. I think it is fair to assume these riders were not entered as individuals and there would have been full teams from all countries especially considering they didnt take part in the pro race.
http://www.cyclebase.nl/?lang=en&page=results&yr=1985&id=1442&nr=1

Thought Poland was out by then - okay, so I was out by a couple of years... they were still in.
As for the others outside the top ten, were the team numbers rules similar back then as to what they are now? As in some countries could only have a few riders instead of full 5/6man teams?

Of note, Stephen Hodge in 18th professed to doping from 1990-96 - dare we suggest he was clean at the amateurs?

 

[sniper]

On the issue of prevalence of transfusions in 1980s, Here is a somewhat interesting story told to the Italian left-wing newspaper L'Unità by Italian cyclist Luigi Giovenzana:

http://archiviostorico.unita.it/cgi-bin/highlightPdf.cgi?t=ebook&file=/archivio/uni_1988_03/19880312_0026.pdf

If I follow his story correctly, Giovenzana tells the following:
- He was offered autotransfusion and after turning down the offer, he was thrown out of the national 100k quartetto
- He also has the impression that "everyone" started taking autotransfusions around Los Angeles Olympics.

While the story is about Olympic level cycling and not necessarily totally true on the day-to-day professional cycling world, the story (if true) is one of the handful of published first-hand revelations about blood doping use in the cycling world before rEPO.

In addition to De Vlaminck and Merckx, this is at least the third account of a rider being offered and then refusing a transfusion in the 70s/80s period (and that's disregarding US riders who claimed to have been offered and refused at the 84 LA Games).
I'd like to know whether Lemond ever got offered one.
If not, why not?
If so, why hasn't he ever spoken up about it?

 

[Durden93]

The reason why I believe Lemond is simple: there's nothing truly "WOW" about him. He rode well at a young age, and didn't come out of nowhere or transform from something completely different Ala Froome, Wiggins, LA or Big Mig. He was always great. He came back from his hunting accident, but took two years to do so. He wasn't close to being competitive after 1992, and yes I realize that he had a bad crash that year but I don't see how he was anywhere close to the levels of the mid 90s. Maybe LeMond tried EPO/blood doping in the early 90s and his body didn't react? I don't know, I think he didn't, but then again I'm probably just being naive.

 

[sniper]

Now with Wiggins injection gate, this is quite funny in hindsight.

Race Radio:

The funny thing about Greg getting an Iron ejection is how the real story lay dormant for over a decade before Armstrong smear campaign relaunched it

The truth is the reporter was not in the room. Greg came down to the lobby after getting injected. He told the reporter about the injection by choice. He told him how uncomfortable it made him. How he hated what needles represented and had always stayed clear of that side of the sport.

Funny how some can twist a story about Greg not being comfortable with needles and what they represented into "Evidence" that he doped.

viewtopic.php?p=1774952#p1774952

It's all Lance's fault.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

Now with Wiggins injection gate, this is quite funny in hindsight.

Race Radio:

The funny thing about Greg getting an Iron ejection is how the real story lay dormant for over a decade before Armstrong smear campaign relaunched it

The truth is the reporter was not in the room. Greg came down to the lobby after getting injected. He told the reporter about the injection by choice. He told him how uncomfortable it made him. How he hated what needles represented and had always stayed clear of that side of the sport.

Funny how some can twist a story about Greg not being comfortable with needles and what they represented into "Evidence" that he doped.

viewtopic.php?p=1774952#p1774952

It's all Lance's fault.

Wait. It's Lance's fault that this makes you think he doped!? I guess that makes sense. A lot more sense than some of the other stuff.

John Swanson

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re:

Now with Wiggins injection gate, this is quite funny in hindsight.

Race Radio:

The funny thing about Greg getting an Iron ejection is how the real story lay dormant for over a decade before Armstrong smear campaign relaunched it

The truth is the reporter was not in the room. Greg came down to the lobby after getting injected. He told the reporter about the injection by choice. He told him how uncomfortable it made him. How he hated what needles represented and had always stayed clear of that side of the sport.

Funny how some can twist a story about Greg not being comfortable with needles and what they represented into "Evidence" that he doped.

viewtopic.php?p=1774952#p1774952

It's all Lance's fault.

Yup. It's all Lance's fault that LeMond got an injection at the beginning of the EPO era, had a miraculous recovery, and people put two and two together when EPO use became well known by the fans and the explanation for performances a decade earlier became obvious to all but the clueless.

I cannot wait for RR's tail wind-like explanation for Sky's TUEs but maybe he has moved beyond thinking that dope use by other riders must be denied or downplayed to make Lance look more guilty.

 

[ebandit]

.........lance is guilty...............sadly despite much effort greg's guilt is unproven

Mark L

 

[sniper]

It's just funny, seeing Wiggins get caught with a lie about injections, everybody calling him a doper and a liar. (and rightly so, mind)
Yet, this awkward silence from the Lemond-is-clean brigade.
And rightly so.

Why wouldn’t you take an iron shot?
Greg: I was needle-averse. From the day I was born, I’ve had these chronic kidney infections…

You were needle-averse?
Greg: I had to go to the doctor to get antibiotic shots (for the kidney infection) as a kid. I remember I ran out of the office and my mom was chasing me through the forest and I’ve always (hated needles)…Especially a needle in the ****.

And that was right through your career?
Greg: Yeah.

No injections?
Greg: I’ve never had an IV, never believed you needed it – that’s where Köchli was really good but also I did my own research and unless you are on the verge of death and heat exhaustion, there is no reason to have an IV, zero reason.

from the same interview:

QS: There is a huge culture of the needle in cycling.
Greg: Well, they all took Vitamin B12 shots…I mean, who knows what else they took.
QS: You never succumbed?
Greg: Never. I took a multi-vitamin if I remembered to take a multi-vitamin...It might be every six weeks.

https://web.facebook.com/2Rmag/posts/534227359949423?_rdr
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=17091&p=1190970&hilit=lemond+needle+injection#p1190970

Now, on closer inspection, Lemond is just lying through his teeth no better than Wiggins:

1989: After a few [iron] injections, he started to make a remarkable recovery.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1990/06/29/lemonds-self-made-miracle/eb9b3fe2-ee74-4b6d-9d65-b26484c27c14/

1991: Indeed, antibiotics helped tide LeMond through the three flat stages before the Alps.
http://www.si.com/vault/1991/08/05/124658/tour-de-courage-greg-lemond-fought-sickness-and-adversity-in-the-78th-tour-de-france-and-finished-a-hero-though-not-a-winner

1991: LeMond was forced to drop out of the Tour of Italy in June because he was suffering from fatigue. His father-in-law, Dave Morris, an immunologist, said the cause was never determined, but LeMond was getting regular blood tests. LeMond's lawyer, Nathan Jenkins, said the blood disorder was being treated with shots.

1993: Allergist David Morris, LeMond's father-in-law, said Greg is being treated with flu vaccine injections that help improve his immune system. http://articles.latimes.com/1993-07-03/sports/sp-9645_1_greg-lemond

 

[Aragon]

Re:

Three simple points:

1) The "succumbing"-comment referred to the culture of preferring to take everything through needle when possible even when there was an alternative. There is actually a lot of evidence that such a mentality has existed in the Peloton in 1980s and 1990s.
2) The only instance when LeMond took a shot instead of a pill was the "iron shot"-episode of 1989. LeMond has referred to this instance in many times, so it wasn't a best kept secret by no means.
3) There is no evidence that he took anything intravenously.

 

[sniper]

Cheers, that cements my point in that it sounds remarkably similar to the PR we're getting from Team Wiggins right now.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/37397499
"he didn't mean this, he actually meant that" etc.

As to your second point: are you serious? That's like saying "Wiggins never doped, because he says so".
Somehow in the context of Lemond it seems legit to take stuff from the horse's mouth as fact. In the context of Wiggins, Froome or Sky you get laughed at if you do that. And rightly so.

 

[blutto]

Re:

The reason why I believe Lemond is simple: there's nothing truly "WOW" about him. He rode well at a young age, and didn't come out of nowhere or transform from something completely different Ala Froome, Wiggins, LA or Big Mig. He was always great. He came back from his hunting accident, but took two years to do so. He wasn't close to being competitive after 1992, and yes I realize that he had a bad crash that year but I don't see how he was anywhere close to the levels of the mid 90s. Maybe LeMond tried EPO/blood doping in the early 90s and his body didn't react? I don't know, I think he didn't, but then again I'm probably just being naive.

....have you actually looked at Indurain's early career or you just reciting verse and chapter from the LeMond Fan Handbook cheatsheet...just a thought but it may be to your advantage to take a look at Indurain's early career before you go shooting your mouth off....

....just sayin' eh....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Re:

...The only source we have for his alleged 90+ V02max is Lemond himself....

Do you have proof of this claim, or are we expected to extend to you the benefit of the doubt that you begrudge to Lemond? Because at present, the only source we have for this claim is you yourself.

The upshot is, you've laid claim to a negative proof. And either you don't comprehend the enormity of the breadth of the research that would be needed to prove what you allege (no, your English-only Google search isn't a drop in the bucket), or you must think the rest of us too numpty to recognise a feint when we see one.

....here is an idea....you could really put this to bed and win the field if you could produce that source....and while you are at it please explain why that number keeps sliding all over the place......because right now it looks like LeMond is just a lousy liar just making stuff up....

....should be quite easy for someone as connected to the truest truth as you are....

...and btw I personally had a VO2 Max of 122.7 or was it 121.5 or maybe it was 127.3....well whatever it is it is the greatest ever recorded ....and if it wasn't for the fact I never competed in the Tour I would have won at least 11 Tours....

Cheers

 

[Aragon]

Re:

Cheers, that cements my point in that it sounds remarkably similar to the PR we're getting from Team Wiggins right now.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/37397499
"he didn't mean this, he actually meant that" etc.

As to your second point: are you serious? That's like saying "Wiggins never doped, because he says so".
Somehow in the context of Lemond it seems legit to take stuff from the horse's mouth as fact. In the context of Wiggins, Froome or Sky you get laughed at if you do that. And rightly so.

As I was debunking/clarifying the needle-quotes you brought up in your post, "The only instance"-quote referred to that context only (which I think is apparent to most of the readers anyway).

 

[sniper]

if you were debunking lemond's needle quotes, then we're on the same page.

 

[Aragon]

Re:

if you were debunking lemond's needle quotes, then we're on the same page.

Were are not on the same page as I wasn't debunking him but you. LeMond claimed in the interview that he didn't like injections and none of your sources prove the opposite. Vaccines etc. must be taken through needle and the iron shot - episode is the only instance you quote where he took via needle something he could've taken orally, and even he doesn't see this as "succumbing" as he refers to the incidence in the same interview.

 

[sniper]

that's your favorable interpretation of his statements, and I do hope you give Wiggins a similarly favorable treatment.

 

[sniper]

and now that we're busy debunking, here's a bit more context:

Otto Jacome 1988: '[H]e's clean - he's never taken any drugs. He won't even take vitamin shots. That will help him, too.''
''It's his cardiovascular system,'' Jacome said, tapping his chest. ''It's a gift, you have to be born with it.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/06/05/magazine/struggling-back.html?pagewanted=all

Phil Anderson 2012:
I recall LeMond’s absolute stance against any medications during his career.
...
He, like many cyclists, has had to deal with losses at the hands of the cheats. He, like many, chose not to take advice and gifts of treatments from soigneur’s ‘vitamins’ – the contents of which were not know to him."
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13448/Anderson-vouches-for-LeMonds-integrity-as-a-pro-says-he-could-make-solid-interim-UCI-President.aspx

QS: There is a huge culture of the needle in cycling.
Greg: Well, they all took Vitamin B12 shots…I mean, who knows what else they took.
QS: You never succumbed?
Greg: Never. I took a multi-vitamin if I remembered to take a multi-vitamin...It might be every six weeks.
https://www.facebook.com/2Rmag/posts/534227359949423

1999:
Lemond was confronted by statements from a Dutch doctor recently, who claimed Lemond had introduced the dangerous hormore EPO into the peloton. "******", he responds angrily. "I only took Vitamin B and C pills".
https://retro.nrc.nl/W2/Lab/Tour99/d150799.html

So, no shots, just orally administered vitamins.
Never succumbed to the needle.
Absolute stance against any medications.

-------------------------------------
Reality is slightly different.

1989: After a few [iron] injections, he started to make a remarkable recovery.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1990/06/29/lemonds-self-made-miracle/eb9b3fe2-ee74-4b6d-9d65-b26484c27c14/

1991: LeMond was forced to drop out of the Tour of Italy in June because he was suffering from fatigue. His father-in-law, Dave Morris, an immunologist, said the cause was never determined, but LeMond was getting regular blood tests.
LeMond's lawyer, Nathan Jenkins, said the blood disorder was being treated with shots.

1991: Indeed, antibiotics helped tide LeMond through the three flat stages before the Alps.
http://www.si.com/vault/1991/08/05/124658/tour-de-courage-greg-lemond-fought-sickness-and-adversity-in-the-78th-tour-de-france-and-finished-a-hero-though-not-a-winner

1993: Allergist David Morris, LeMond's father-in-law, said Greg is being treated with flu vaccine injections that help improve his immune system. http://articles.latimes.com/1993-07-03/sports/sp-9645_1_greg-lemond

At least Wiggins admitted to the vaccin shots

 

[gillan1969]

Lemond never in the grupetto (well not until the epo era)

Wiggins firmly in the grupetto

 

[sniper]

In the EPO era he wasn't in the grupetto.
He won two TdFs.
After that he was in hospitals getting his myopathy diagnosed, the most plausible explanation of which is amply documented in the literature: steroid-induced myopathy.

But this is not particularly relevant now.
We're comparing Wiggins injection gate with Lemond's.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

In the EPO era he wasn't in the grupetto.
He won two TdFs.
After that he was in hospitals getting his myopathy diagnosed, the most plausible explanation of which is amply documented in the literature: steroid-induced myopathy.

But this is not particularly relevant now.
We're comparing Wiggins injection gate with Lemond's.

Oh, please please please cite some literature regarding "steroid-induced myopathy". That's just not how it works. It's a genetic disorder. That said, given the progression of his health problems, it's likely that his muscle biopsy (i.e., ragged muscle fibers) was misinterpreted and he was mis-diagnosed. In other words, he might not have mitochondrial myopathy, but the pathology and diagnosis fit his condition for some time.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

The smart money here is on "doped too much for too long".
Ask Max Testa.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

The smart money here is on "doped too much for too long".
Ask Max Testa.

So you agree that you can't dope your way to a genetic disorder. Good. Let's put that one to rest then.

John Swanson