LeMond III

[sniper]

Yes. Like with sky and all those other GT winners.

 

[djpbaltimore]

I'd say the exact opposite.
There is no possible way that you can read that and come up with Greg not taking cortisone...

C'mon, man. Own your words.....

 

[sniper]

Re:

I'd say the exact opposite.
There is no possible way that you can read that and come up with Greg not taking cortisone...

C'mon, man. Own your words.....

I own those words.
Now stop putting new ones into my mouth. TIA

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Is it strawman happy hour?
Man up, stop deflecting, and address the argument.
Or don't address he argument if it leaves you speechless.
Either way stop deflecting.

How is that a strawman sniper?

You posted a dead link, he's just asking for you to post the same article in a link that we can all read.

The second part of his statement.

Fair enough.

Do you have access to the link you posted in another publication? I would have liked to have read it too.

Yes, I'll look at it.

 

[sniper]

this one works for me:
http://www.eurosport.co.uk/cycling/lemond-itll-be-a-froome-contador-shoot-out-as-eurosport-announce-widest-ever-tour-coverage_sto4706045/story.shtml

 

[djpbaltimore]

Then post a link that has evidence that LeMond used cortisone like you posted.

Your implication was that it was used for allergies. I guess I should've written 'allergies'.

 

[djpbaltimore]

The delicate thing is this: I suffered from allergies throughout my career and I've realised, post career, that I was drastically hindered by allergies during the month of May. But you can test for that - to see which pollens bring it on; these are legitimate back up tests for a TUE. Now the medication for things like this is cortisone, but it's obviously not the best thing to do to take cortisone throughout a three-week race. There's a delicate line. There are legitimate people who take asthma medication. It's fairly common. The physical demands of cycling is that it actually lowers your immune system and you expose yourself to a tremendous amount of elements - so certain people might get a chronic overload and develop, say, bad asthma. So, what's the right way to go? If you're a professional racer and it's not bothered you for ten years, then suddenly you're hit by an allergy - that's probably when you decide to apply for a TUE.

Funny no admission of any personal use of cortisone. Allergy is actually immune mediated so the bold is pretty much a non-sequitur.

As an allergy sufferer, it's interesting to look at this case. Grass is a very prominent allergen. My sister-in-law is one of the top allergists in the country and it's a legitimate issue - and so in this period of May and June some of these guys are probably really suffering. Now I'd take Salbutamol myself because if you let your asthma overreact then it can get worse. So it's a very delicate issue. The question you have to ask is whether or not you take Salbutamol with a TUE. You can do fairly simple tests and get the lowdown. I don't think that if you're suffering a major asthma attack then taking Salbutamol can really be seen as a performance enhancer. The reality is that asthma affects your airways and it has a huge impact on your performance. I experience a 25% drop in power output and that's me now in the poor shape I'm in. My performances in the Giro were constantly hampered by allergies.

Salbutamol is not a corticosteroid. And, the conditional use of the verb suggests that this is a hypothetical answer based on what he would do if he was competing.

 

[sniper]

no admission of any personal use of cortisone

as i suspected, it's strawman happy hour.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

To add to the above, it looks like Greg treated his pollen allergy with cortisone too, similar to Wiggins.

The delicate thing is this: I suffered from allergies throughout my career and I've realised, post career, that I was drastically hindered by allergies during the month of May. But you can test for that - to see which pollens bring it on; these are legitimate back up tests for a TUE. Now the medication for things like this is cortisone, but it's obviously not the best thing to do to take cortisone throughout a three-week race.

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/blazin-saddles/lemond-predicts-froome-contador-shoot-eurosport-announce-widest-113533624.html?

This is just comical. How can it be a straw man when I am asking you to support exactly what you have written multiple times (recently!!!) in this very thread?

 

[sniper]

Thanks for confirming that you were putting words into my mouth.
You shouldn't.

 

[djpbaltimore]

So I am left to assume that you don't think that LeMond personally used cortisone for his allergies? Great, we are in agreement then.

 

[sniper]

Re:

In any case I think it's fair to observe that Lemond is quite the specialist on the topic of allergies and how to treat them. Cortisone, no cortisone. Salbutamol. (Good thing he never tested positive for that, unlike poor Miguel)


I'm reading about how long-term steroid use can cause suppression and ultimately (severe) deterioration of the immune system.
Let's look again at Lemond from 1990 onwards:

In 1990, LeMond suffered through a miserable spring during which he could barely train without becoming fatigued. Morris diagnosed LeMond's ailment as Epstein-Barr Syndrome, an illness similar to infectious mononucleosis. After treatments, LeMond went on to win the Tour. http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-21/sports/sp-399_1_greg-lemond

1990: World cycling champion Greg LeMond will be out of action for at least a month because of an unidentified virus infection, his French team Z said.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1990-04-03/sports/9001290392_1_unidentified-virus-infection-michel-laurent-greg-lemond

1991: Greg LeMond revealed Saturday that he might be suffering from a recurring virus of unknown origins that left him listless in the Pyrenees, where his chances of winning a fourth Tour de France might have been lost. http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-21/sports/sp-399_1_greg-lemond

1991: “That night team doctors took blood samples that revealed that LeMond's white blood cell count was elevated to nearly twice its normal levels. Dr. David Morris, Kathy LeMond's immunologist father, saw the open sores on his son-in-law's feet and diagnosed an infection. http://www.si.com/vault/1991/08/05/124658/tour-de-courage-greg-lemond-fought-sickness-and-adversity-in-the-78th-tour-de-france-and-finished-a-hero-though-not-a-winner

1993: Then it was revealed that LeMond suffered from allergies that affected his immune system. They became so severe in Italy that he had infections on his lips, mouth and throat.

1993: “My immune system is not functioning properly,” he was reported saying in the middle of 1993. “I have had a hard time recovering for the last month. It’s a combination of allergies with asthma-like attacks and a sore throat and chronic fatigue.” http://le-grimpeur.net/blog/archives/132

 

[djpbaltimore]

As I noted above. Allergies are not indicative of a weakened immune response. It is a pathology mediated by the immune system itself.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

The delicate thing is this: I suffered from allergies throughout my career and I've realised, post career, that I was drastically hindered by allergies during the month of May. But you can test for that - to see which pollens bring it on; these are legitimate back up tests for a TUE. Now the medication for things like this is cortisone, but it's obviously not the best thing to do to take cortisone throughout a three-week race. There's a delicate line. There are legitimate people who take asthma medication. It's fairly common. The physical demands of cycling is that it actually lowers your immune system and you expose yourself to a tremendous amount of elements - so certain people might get a chronic overload and develop, say, bad asthma. So, what's the right way to go? If you're a professional racer and it's not bothered you for ten years, then suddenly you're hit by an allergy - that's probably when you decide to apply for a TUE.

Funny no admission of any personal use of cortisone. Allergy is actually immune mediated so the bold is pretty much a non-sequitur.

As an allergy sufferer, it's interesting to look at this case. Grass is a very prominent allergen. My sister-in-law is one of the top allergists in the country and it's a legitimate issue - and so in this period of May and June some of these guys are probably really suffering. Now I'd take Salbutamol myself because if you let your asthma overreact then it can get worse. So it's a very delicate issue. The question you have to ask is whether or not you take Salbutamol with a TUE. You can do fairly simple tests and get the lowdown. I don't think that if you're suffering a major asthma attack then taking Salbutamol can really be seen as a performance enhancer. The reality is that asthma affects your airways and it has a huge impact on your performance. I experience a 25% drop in power output and that's me now in the poor shape I'm in. My performances in the Giro were constantly hampered by allergies.

Salbutamol is not a corticosteroid. And, the conditional use of the verb suggests that this is a hypothetical answer based on what he would do if he was competing.

The statement itself proves that he's arguing a hypothetical. There was no such thing as a TUE when Greg was riding.

John Swanson

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Actually, I'm wrong by a year. The UCI started accepting TUEs in 1993 and Greg retired in 1994. My opinion is that this still proves that Greg was speaking of a hypothetical. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23591601

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Thanks for clarifying John.

djpbaltimore said:
Allergies are not indicative of a weakened immune response. It is a pathology mediated by the immune system itself.

Thanks for clarifying. Still,

“My immune system is not functioning properly,” he was reported saying in the middle of 1993.

seems indicative enough

Briefly back to his alleged Epstein-Barr Syndrome. It's funny that nobody has ever really tried to address this, especially since he won the TdF that year and one possible treatment of the symptoms of EBS is by means of cortisone.

In 1990, LeMond suffered through a miserable spring during which he could barely train without becoming fatigued. Morris diagnosed LeMond's ailment as Epstein-Barr Syndrome, an illness similar to infectious mononucleosis.

And sure enough:

After treatments, LeMond went on to win the Tour. http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-21/sports/sp-399_1_greg-lemond

Wiggins avant la lettre?

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Thanks for clarifying John.

djpbaltimore said:
Allergies are not indicative of a weakened immune response. It is a pathology mediated by the immune system itself.

Thanks for clarifying. Still,

“My immune system is not functioning properly,” he was reported saying in the middle of 1993.

seems indicative enough

Briefly back to his alleged Epstein-Barr Syndrome. It's funny that nobody has ever really tried to address this, especially since he won the TdF that year and one possible treatment of the symptoms of EBS is by means of cortisone.

In 1990, LeMond suffered through a miserable spring during which he could barely train without becoming fatigued. Morris diagnosed LeMond's ailment as Epstein-Barr Syndrome, an illness similar to infectious mononucleosis.

And sure enough:

After treatments, LeMond went on to win the Tour. http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-21/sports/sp-399_1_greg-lemond

Wiggins avant la lettre?

Similar, yet completely different. As another person so eloquently stated in another post, treating allergies with cortisone is like treating a headache with morphine. It'll work, but...

On the other hand, treating an illness with an appropriate medication is, well, appropriate! Even if it's the same medication being used for the dodgy and legitimate cases.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

So let's summarize.
On Wiggins and Froome and Impey and Yates and Indurain and Mo Farah and Lionel Messi and Rafael Nadal and Peto Sagan and Jan Ulrich we call BS. We don't buy into their alleged asthma and allergies.
But for Lemond, who used a variety of similar and even more ridiculous excuses (allergies, infections, epstein-bar syndrome, anemia, iron deficiency, did I miss something?), and who had an immunologist stepfather and stepsister, a nurse student as his wife, and seems to know a hell of a lot about cortisone and salbutamol...we are supposed to believe he went on bread and water...

It's just a tad bit, tiny wheeny bit, ridiculous.

But carry on.
My Lemond-pensum is up for tonight

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

So let's summarize.
On Wiggins and Froome and Impey and Yates and Indurain and Mo Farah and Lionel Messi and Rafael Nadal and Peto Sagan and Jan Ulrich we call BS. We don't buy into their TUEs for asthma.
But for Lemond, who used a variety of similar and even more ridiculous excuses (allergies, infections, epstein-bar syndrome, anemia, iron deficiency, did I miss something?), and who had an immunologist stepfather and stepsister, a nurse student as his wife, and seems to know a hell of a lot about cortisone and salbutamol...we are supposed to believe he went on bread and water...

It's just a tad bit, tiny wheeny bit, ridiculous.

I only looked at Mo Farah's, Wiggins', and Froome's TUE disclosures so I can only comment on them. Farah's looks totally legit to me and Froome's actually looks not bad with the exception of the Romandie one which stinks. Wiggins was apparently taking the nuclear option when he could've taken something less dodgy. On the whole, as an asthma sufferer, I can totally see why some racers would use Salbutamol. I did. And it certainly wasn't performance enhancing!

In other words, I'm not willing to dump everyone in the same basket as you have. Consequently, we have come to different conclusions.

John Swanson

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

Thanks for clarifying. Still,

“My immune system is not functioning properly,” he was reported saying in the middle of 1993.

seems indicative enough

Briefly back to his alleged Epstein-Barr Syndrome. It's funny that nobody has ever really tried to address this, especially since he won the TdF that year and one possible treatment of the symptoms of EBS is by means of cortisone.

In 1990, LeMond suffered through a miserable spring during which he could barely train without becoming fatigued. Morris diagnosed LeMond's ailment as Epstein-Barr Syndrome, an illness similar to infectious mononucleosis.

Over activation of the immune system (Allergy, Autoimmunity) is one of the ways that the immune system can function improperly. Too little immune function is at the other end of the spectrum, but would also be improper function.

EBV is the main cause of Mono, so I'm not certain what the writer is actually talking about. Corticosteroids are not a particularly effective treatment for EBV (link), though maybe at the time it was more accepted.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=8699062

Oropharyngeal Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) shedding was significantly inhibited during the treatment period (P = .02, Mann-Whitney rank test). No significant effect was observed for duration of general illness, sore throat, weight loss, or absence from school or work. The frequency of latent EBV-infected B lymphocytes in peripheral blood and the HLA-restricted EBV-specific cellular immunity, measured 6 months after onset of disease, was not affected by treatment. Thus, acyclovir combined with prednisolone inhibited oropharyngeal EBV replication without affecting duration of clinical symptoms or development of EBV-specific cellular immunity.

 

[pmcg76]

This has long been a pure trolling thread, because if posters were genuinely interested in finding out about the subject of the thread, they would ask questions or do the research thenselves rather than make constant accusations and insinuations by constantly misrepresenting articles, taking quotes out of context and consistenly demonstrating pure cluelessness about the subject matter.

For the record, LeMond withdrew from competition in March 1990 and returned to the US when he was diagnosed with the virus. He did not return to competition until the Tour du Pont race in May, so even if by some chance he was taking cortisone to treat the virus, he would have been doing nothing wrong as it would have been ooc.

But then considering LeMond was so poor when he actually returned to competition at the US race, it would seem highly unlikely he was taking anything that would have improved him. He rode the Du Pont race followed by the Giro to get into shape(almost 5 weeks of racing) and by the time of the Tour de Suisse was showing signs of form finishing in the Top 10. Racing to get into shape was considered the normal way of finding form back then.

But you know what, this has all been discussed before in the LeMond threads as have most things LeMond related, but hey why bother to actually read back through the threads to inform yourself when you can just ##### continously.

 

[sniper]

I think we all want to know how/why lemond couldn't finish races anymore and his immune system wasn't working properly anymore. We also want to know how he was able to win three tours, beating known dopers and blood dopers. We also want to know where all those doping and epo rumours about lemond come from. And, we want to know why he invested in Montgomery securities. We also want to know what happened to him at the OTC and why he threw a fundraiser for blood doper Eddie B. We want to know the answer to all that.
There is an answer. In fact there is an answer which answers them all.
You don't have an answer to any of those questions.
Simples, really.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Thanks for clarifying. Still,

“My immune system is not functioning properly,” he was reported saying in the middle of 1993.

seems indicative enough

Briefly back to his alleged Epstein-Barr Syndrome. It's funny that nobody has ever really tried to address this, especially since he won the TdF that year and one possible treatment of the symptoms of EBS is by means of cortisone.

In 1990, LeMond suffered through a miserable spring during which he could barely train without becoming fatigued. Morris diagnosed LeMond's ailment as Epstein-Barr Syndrome, an illness similar to infectious mononucleosis.

Over activation of the immune system (Allergy, Autoimmunity) is one of the ways that the immune system can function improperly. Too little immune function is at the other end of the spectrum, but would also be improper function.

EBV is the main cause of Mono, so I'm not certain what the writer is actually talking about. Corticosteroids are not a particularly effective treatment for EBV (link), though maybe at the time it was more accepted.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=8699062

Oropharyngeal Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) shedding was significantly inhibited during the treatment period (P = .02, Mann-Whitney rank test). No significant effect was observed for duration of general illness, sore throat, weight loss, or absence from school or work. The frequency of latent EBV-infected B lymphocytes in peripheral blood and the HLA-restricted EBV-specific cellular immunity, measured 6 months after onset of disease, was not affected by treatment. Thus, acyclovir combined with prednisolone inhibited oropharyngeal EBV replication without affecting duration of clinical symptoms or development of EBV-specific cellular immunity.

Thanks, good info.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

So let's summarize.
On Wiggins and Froome and Impey and Yates and Indurain and Mo Farah and Lionel Messi and Rafael Nadal and Peto Sagan and Jan Ulrich we call BS. We don't buy into their TUEs for asthma.
But for Lemond, who used a variety of similar and even more ridiculous excuses (allergies, infections, epstein-bar syndrome, anemia, iron deficiency, did I miss something?), and who had an immunologist stepfather and stepsister, a nurse student as his wife, and seems to know a hell of a lot about cortisone and salbutamol...we are supposed to believe he went on bread and water...

It's just a tad bit, tiny wheeny bit, ridiculous.

I only looked at Mo Farah's, Wiggins', and Froome's TUE disclosures so I can only comment on them. Farah's looks totally legit to me and Froome's actually looks not bad with the exception of the Romandie one which stinks. Wiggins was apparently taking the nuclear option when he could've taken something less dodgy. On the whole, as an asthma sufferer, I can totally see why some racers would use Salbutamol. I did. And it certainly wasn't performance enhancing!

In other words, I'm not willing to dump everyone in the same basket as you have. Consequently, we have come to different conclusions.

John Swanson

fair enough.
still, the salbutamol kind of undresses Lemond's repeated "I only took vitamin pills" line as a lie.
Personally I think he used at least some of those diseases/illnesses/allergies as a pretext to gear up.
No I can't prove that, but for the love of God you can't say it's an implausible thought, this being procycling.

 

[popular jams]

Re:

I think we all want to know how/why lemond couldn't finish races anymore and his immune system wasn't working properly anymore. We also want to know how he was able to win three tours, beating known dopers and blood dopers. We also want to know where all those doping and epo rumours about lemond come from. And, we want to know why he invested in Montgomery securities. We also want to know what happened to him at the OTC and why he threw a fundraiser for blood doper Eddie B. We want to know the answer to all that.
There is an answer. In fact there is an answer which answers them all.
You don't have an answer to any of those questions.
Simples, really.

I think at this point we all understand what you're getting at. If you haven't already, why not just come out and say plainly that it's your belief that LeMond doped? The pseudo-intellectual arguments are hollow and a poor attempt at argument to an outsider.

Also, it might help to understand what drives your need to believe that LeMond doped.

Care to share?