LeMond III

[sniper]

@fearless greg,
Great post. Was about time you chimed in.
critique:
i wouldnt attach much value to lemond refusing to participate in pdm,s dope programm.
That,s merely to be expected if he had his own progam.
From everything i,ve read, i think its fair to speculate greg had some sort of "ped fobia".
meaning: if he doped, i stress IF, he would only have taken whatever his wife and soigneur would have given him. nothing else. nothing too exotic, and nothing he didnt have full control over.
he seems to have been quite paranoid about possible side effects of certain peds.
no wonder. one kidney.
people around him dropping dead left right and centre.
so yes, easy to undefstand his paranoia and precaution.
could even imagine he did epo early on, and stopped in 1990, after the draaijer episode.
anyway, you provide some facinating quotes whcih make it easier to understand why so many posters would stick their hands in the fire for lemond.
A paula-esque antidoping stance. very firm. So thats very credible, i admit, but with plenty of reasons to remain skeptical, at least as far as epo and transfusions are concerned.

i would still like to know why so many people were out to smear greg and pretend he was the first epo user.
could you provide the year of publication of tat dutch newspaper article with the anonymous whistleblower?

 

[ebandit]

lot of ifs there sniper............................................................LOL.....Mark L

 

[sniper]

Re:

lot of ifs there sniper............................................................LOL.....Mark L

yes.
even if that whistleblower who claimed greg pioneered epo turns out to be right, it still doesnt mean lemond doped by the letter of the rule. epo wasnt illegal in 1986-1990.
so yeah, the starting point of the discussion is the hypothesis that lemond is clean. everything else is "iffy" at best.
as i said, his credibility is very high, right up there with pre-2015 paula.

 

[ebandit]

oh

ifs

yes. i think i,ve always stressed that i dont know if he doped.
even if that whistleblower who claimed greg pioneered epo turns out to be right, it still doesnt mean lemond doped by the letter of the rule. epo wasnt illegal in 1986-1990.
so yeah, the starting point of the discussion is the hypothesis that lemond is clean. everything else is "iffy" at best.
as i said, his credibility is very high, right up there with pre-2015 paula.

but was EPO legal? OK there was no test but did banned list incl. any substance that....or similar..........Mark L

 

[sniper]

good question, i asked it upthread.
from wat i was told, there was no uci antidopinf rule covering the use of epo in89/90.
maybe though there was a rule that would have prohibited its use in 86-87 when jt was still in clinical trials.
not sure.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

could you provide the year of publication of tat dutch newspaper article with the anonymous whistleblower?

The article is from june 1990.

How about sharing the source about van Mol and Donati?

Does the name Castoings ring a bell for you?

So many questions...

 

[Irondan]

Earlier up thread we spoke of closing this thread but it was kept open with the thought that someone may have something to say that's worth discussing.

Since then a lot of the comments that have been posted are antagonistic, trolling, personal attacks and veiled innuendo.

I'm left with no other solution other than to close this thread, for now.

If for some reason in the future there's a need to reopen it, that's something that can be considered.

Edit: Reopened for now.

 

[sniper]

Just dropping this here:

Greg LeMond: “José De Cauwer is een van de ploegleiders waarmee ik het liefst heb gewerkt. Ik zou meteen opnieuw met hem in zee gaan. Hij bleef altijd rustig. Hij was sluw, een meester tacticus, een van de besten in het peloton. Hij wist ook perfect de verschillende karakters in zijn ploeg te verenigen en te bespelen. Afgezien van de financiële problemen met François Lambert blijft ADR een van de beste herinneringen uit mijn profloopbaan. Jammer dat het zo afgelopen is. Ik zou graag bij ADR gebleven zijn.” https://ronnydeschepper.com/2010/08/04/jose-de-cauwer-bij-daf-trucks/

2001:

De Cauwer genoemd in dopingaffaire

De Belgische wielerbondscoach José De Cauwer is in opspraak geraakt. Justitie in Antwerpen verdenkt hem van handel in hormonen en het bezit van verdovende middelen....
http://www.volkskrant.nl/archief/de-cauwer-genoemd-in-dopingaffaire~a607876/

will translate later.

 

[sniper]

other key person at ADR was of course Yvan Vanmol (or Van Mol), who gave Lemond the alleged iron shots in 1989, and who is accused by Donati of having doped the Polish amateur Halupczok, world champion in 1989, with EPO in 1989, as well as doping several other cyclists in 1990 and 1991, again, with epo.
viewtopic.php?p=1896010#p1896010.
https://sites.google.com/site/dopingitalia/home/documenti/doping-nel-ciclismo---dossier-di-sandro-donati-1994

Then ADR also had Planckaert, who admitted to using EPO in 1998 and thinks it's a "fantastic" drug.
http://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/planckaert-heeft-geen-spijt-van-epo-onthulling~a453047/
sure, he only admitted to using it in 1991, when he had no results whatsoever, and makes the very credible claim that he was clean in his peak year 1988.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Did somebody ask why we shouldnt put much value in doping-doc Vanmol's claim that Lemond was clean?
Well, let's see...
Here is a lovely interview with Vanmol from 1988, where he's talking about himself and his collaboration with Planckaert and how necessary it is for GT teams to have their own doctor.
I'll leave it without comment for now, but be prepared to raise an eyebrow or two:

After every stage, Vanmol subjects his riders to thorough examinations.
"Pulse and bloodpressure are being measured before dinner. Then we apply the necessary preparates. Yes, that also involves injections and infusions. During this Tour I had the blood of my riders examined twice. And what appeared? At least two of our riders were suffering from an iron shortage."
...
"I also frequently use Italian, energy-releasing products, because these are absorbed by the body quickly and thus effectively stimulate the riders' metabolism."

Tour riders are often labeled as dopers. But Vanmol argues that Tour riders do not use illegal substances. "Doping is taboo. Medical treatment is so far advanced these days that athletes can perform at the highest level without illegal substances. And at the Tour, everyday several riders are tested."

This notwithstanding, Vanmol is not in agreement with the UCI's list of banned substances. "In my opinion, testosteron should not be on that list."

http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?identifier=ddd%3A010611731%3Ampeg21%3Aa0264&coll=ddd

 

[sniper]

Re:

so let me translate that earlier post on De Cauwer.

Greg LeMond in 2010:

“José De Cauwer is one of the team leaders with whom I loved working the most. I would immediately go with him again. (...) He was clever, a master tactician, one of the best in the peloton. He also knew how to unite the different characters in the team. Apart from the financial problems (...) ADR remains one of the best memories from my carreer.” https://ronnydeschepper.com/2010/08/04/jose-de-cauwer-bij-daf-trucks/

back in 2001:

De Cauwer named in doping affair.

The Belgian cycling coach José De Cauwer is in the news. The Justice Department in Antwerpen suspects him of selling hormones and the possession of anesthetic substances.
http://www.volkskrant.nl/archief/de-cauwer-genoemd-in-dopingaffaire~a607876/

 

[sniper]

Besides Planckaert, Yvan Vanmol's other topdog at ADR in 1988 was Dirk Demol who won Paris Roubaix that year. Later, Demol became assistent sports director at Discovery/USPS. He's mentioned in the USADA files as "other16":

Other16 - 2003 USPS assistant director who encouraged cover-up of doping
Dirk Demol http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=1255.5;wap2

About his 1988 P-R win under the wings of De Cauwer and Vanmol:

I spoke with Dirk Demol last year about his win at Paris Roubaix in 1988. He said he never felt as good as he did that day. http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/interviews/pez-interviews-joe-parkin/#.Vwj_0kcjWM8

PEZ interview with Demol:

Dirk won the 1988 edition of Paris Roubaix in the longest breakaway to date.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

to get back to this:

...

After every stage, Vanmol subjects his riders to thorough examinations.
"Pulse and bloodpressure are being measured before dinner. Then we apply the necessary preparates. Yes, that also involves injections and infusions. During this Tour I had the blood of my riders examined twice. And what appeared? At least two of our riders were suffering from an iron deficiency."
...

http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?identifier=ddd%3A010611731%3Ampeg21%3Aa0264&coll=ddd

So we have Vanmol diagnosing two of his ADR riders with an iron deficiency in 1988. Yet according to the 'official' Lemond story, it was not Vanmol but his soigneur Otto Jacome who diagnosed his iron deficiency in 1989:

But his masseur, Otto Jacome, diagnosed LeMond's ashen pallor as a symptom of iron deficiency. After a few injections, he started to make a remarkable recovery. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1990/06/29/lemonds-self-made-miracle/eb9b3fe2-ee74-4b6d-9d65-b26484c27c14/

mkay.
And what are the odds that the Polish amateur Halupczok is claimed by Donati to have been doped with EPO, also in 1989, by...Vanmol.

Now, as i posted earlier, Halupczok died 1990, due to a heart attack likely caused by EPO, as did several other riders with whom Greg Lemond was in more or less close contact (Draaijer of course the best well known one)...and suddenly one starts to understand why Lemond called it a day in 1991.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

sniper, you forgot this over in the other thread. Also, don't know how liking de Cauwer as a rider, coach and person makes someone a doper.



Sniper, I think you might have a misunderstanding of some of the facts you posted above.

1. - Greg was not an anemia patient. Had had low iron stores and took a total of three iron injections. One from Van Mol with journalist Wilcockson in the room. Two from Otto Jacome over the next two weeks as directed by Van Mol.

2. - He's not missing a kidney or anything silly like that. In Greg's own words, he developed his fear of needles because when he was a kid he had recurring kidney infections (a urinary tract infection) and had to get antibiotics injections.

3. - His "entourage" didn't seem to exist. I've yet to see anything that would place David Morris at one of Greg's races. Kathy was around because they moved to France in 1981 when he got his first contract. Not sure how she could've worked at her dad's practice in the US after that...

There's a fantastic interview that would clarify these points further: https://www.facebook.com/2Rmag/posts/534227359949423

Next, when it comes to rumors, you might want to listen to what *everyone* was saying. One one hand you have Armstrong, Dhaenens, Esofosfina (rode for ADR and said 'A - team' went to clinic and everyone was on an anti-depressant/upper), and Echoes who heard a rumor from the manager of an amateur Belgian team.

On the other hand, I'll quote Race Radio who says it best:

"It is usually the same thing.......LeMond doped because well, he just had to have doped, no evidence but yeah he definitely doped.

This stance ignores the people in the know like Laurent Fignon who said it was possible to win clean in the 80s even though he doped himself.

Like Willy Voet who said there were clean top riders like Charly Mottet despite naming countless people who did dope.

Like Paul Koechli, who ran a clean team in Helvetia/La Suiise without any needles and said LeMond won the Tour clean. Before people say that was because he was his manager, Koechli never said Hinault won the tour clean and he was his manager too. Bernard Tapie, owner of the team said the only guys he knew that definitely didnt dope were LeMond and Bauer, not Hinault, not Bernard.

Like Peter Winnen who says it was possible to win clean in the 80s but everything changed with EPO.

I suggest reading Moore's book Slaying the Badger". He talks with many former teammates and staff who tell story after story of how Greg not only rode clean but was vocally anti doping his entire career.

When PDM pushed Greg to dope he worked to get out of his contract
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond

Saying LeMond doping goes against what many of the key people who were actually in the sport in the 80's think.....even if they doped themselves.

Like Phil Anderson who said



Quote

I recall LeMond’s absolute stance against any medications during his career. He believed he would have won more Tours if it was a level playing field.

He, like many cyclists, has had to deal with losses at the hands of the cheats. He, like many, chose not to take advice and gifts of treatments from soigneur’s ‘vitamins’ – the contents of which were not know to him."

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Re:

Also, don't know how liking de Cauwer as a rider, coach and person makes someone a doper.

it doesn't. It's merely context.
Wiggins praising Lance and Leinders doesn't make Wiggins a doper either. Still, we discuss it.

 

[sniper]

Re:

sniper, you forgot this over in the other thread.

no, hadn't forgotten it, was waiting for the mods to transfer it.

My Clinic time is pretty much up for today, so let me keep it short for now:
I think you are taking stuff from the horse's mouth as fact too quickly. You can't expect me to go along with that. When Lance said he was clean, did you believe him? Etc.

Also, as blutto noted, you got the 'facts' on the kidney wrong. At least according to Lemond you did.
I agree we shoudn't take what he says as gospel. But the alternative here is that Lemond is lying about the one kidney. If he is, why?

Please address those two issues first (1. why take stuff from horse's mouth as fact?; 2. one or two kidneys?), and, if you have time, address the Vanmol stuff i posted above.
Hint: think about your own timing argument re: Cancellara's motor.

I will address the remainig points in your post later today or tomorrow.

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: LeMond

That is some gold there, Sniper. It should be posted to the evidence thread.

When I remarked to Floyd that that LeMond has long promoted the story that he was forced into retirement because he was no longer competitive after everyone started using EPO but the truth appears to be LeMond started first and the others caught up, he told me that was well known in the peloton and riders talked about it.

It explains why LeMond has never called out the doping by his rivals. LeMond is like Betsy. It was never about doping. It was always about using doping to further their own agendas.

 

[blutto]

Re: LeMond

That is some gold there, Sniper. It should be posted to the evidence thread.

When I remarked to Floyd that that LeMond has long promoted the story that he was forced into retirement because he was no longer competitive after everyone started using EPO but the truth appears to be LeMond started first and the others caught up, he told me that was well known in the peloton and riders talked about it.

It explains why LeMond has never called out the doping by his rivals. LeMond is like Betsy. It was never about doping. It was always about using doping to further their own agendas.

....gee whiz, now isn't that an interesting twist to the plot...

Cheers

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

I think you are taking stuff from the horse's mouth as fact too quickly. You can't expect me to go along with that. When Lance said he was clean, did you believe him? Etc.

He appears to have listed about 5 other people who said Lemond was clean, people who would actually know.

Why ignore all that?

 

[Zypherov]

Re: LeMond

That is some gold there, Sniper. It should be posted to the evidence thread.

When I remarked to Floyd that that LeMond has long promoted the story that he was forced into retirement because he was no longer competitive after everyone started using EPO but the truth appears to be LeMond started first and the others caught up, he told me that was well known in the peloton and riders talked about it.

It explains why LeMond has never called out the doping by his rivals. LeMond is like Betsy. It was never about doping. It was always about using doping to further their own agendas.

So what you are basically saying is that Greg Lemond was on the juice and the riders in the Peloton
knew about it ??

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Re: LeMond

That is some gold there, Sniper. It should be posted to the evidence thread.

When I remarked to Floyd that that LeMond has long promoted the story that he was forced into retirement because he was no longer competitive after everyone started using EPO but the truth appears to be LeMond started first and the others caught up, he told me that was well known in the peloton and riders talked about it.

It explains why LeMond has never called out the doping by his rivals. LeMond is like Betsy. It was never about doping. It was always about using doping to further their own agendas.

....gee whiz, now isn't that an interesting twist to the plot...

Cheers

Actually, "interesting" wasn't the first word to come to mind.

There was never any donkey-to-racehorse transformation with Lemond as was the hallmark of other notable EPO beneficiaries, like Froome (rhymes with 'zoom') and the Uniballer. Furthermore, EPO only first was isolated in 1985, which begs the question, how else would Lemond have won the Jr World Championship (1979), the Coors Classic (1981), the (adult) World Championship, Dauphiné Libéré and Super Prestige (1983), and taken third in the 1984 TdF, all occurring inarguably before any synthetic form of the drug existed? And his second place result in the 1985 TdF (which should have been his first victory, save for his obsequiousness to team orders) less than three months after the world first leaned the drug had been isolated.

Steve Tilford remarked that Lemond was a once-in-a-lifetime talent, so strong as a junior that he could have won the TdF. And he was hardly alone in that sentiment.

And I'm supposed to ignore these documented facts in favour of the word of a documented liar and cheat who entered the sport more than 20 years after Lemond had left it, because he heard from somebody who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else ...that Lemond used EPO?


Well colour me incredulous.


I've said it repeatedly and will continue saying ad nauseum, If there were any surviving credible evidence that Lemond had doped, it would have surfaced by now.

This is neither evidentiary nor credible.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: LeMond

And I'm supposed to ignore these documented facts in favour of the word of a documented liar and cheat who entered the sport more than 20 years after Lemond had left it, because he heard from somebody who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else who heard it from somebody else ...that Lemond used EPO?

More accurately, the rumor of the word of a documented liar and cheat. Someone who publicly attacked and threatened Lemond for telling the truth about him.

This isn't a quote. This is something someone, about whom we know little or nothing, said they heard Landis say. All the other stuff is totally on point.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Dhaenens had ridden and trained with Lemond.
The Belgian cyclists mentioned on that blog had ridden with Lemond.
Lance and Floyd worked with Dirk Demol and Julien Devries, both of whom had ridden and/or worked with Lemond.
Boogerd was in contact with Gisbers.
The anonymous whistleblower from 1990 rode with Lemond. (the offer to translate it still stands )

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Dhaenens had ridden and trained with Lemond.
The Belgian cyclists mentioned on that blog had ridden with Lemond.
Lance and Floyd worked with Dirk Demol and Julien Devries, both of whom had ridden and/or worked with Lemond.
Boogerd was in contact with Gisbers.
The anonymous whistleblower from 1990 rode with Lemond. (the offer to translate it still stands )

I was quite obviously referring to the Landis comment. I read dutch well enough not to need your offer, thanks. Some time ago I agreed that there were claims by some folks back in the day regarding Lemond.

The simple fact is that the weight of evidence is overwhelmingly against your case. And please spare me that you're going for some balanced view here. As stated above, I don't find your evidence credible. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of it.

 

[sniper]

@Stybjornberski: Here's the chronology of Lemond as a junior:

1977: Lemond is discovered by a certain Eddie B, of whom we know for fact that he took US juniors to Poland to teach them how to carry out autologous transfusions.
1978: Lemond travels to Europe for the first time, visiting Belgium and...Poland. Certainly we can all agree he didn't go there for sightseeing.
1979: Lemond becomes junior world champ.

Sorry, but with those facts at hand there is no a priori reason to discard the possibility that he was blooddoping at an early age under the tutelage of Eddie.
There's no proof that he was, but there's plenty of factual and cycling-historical reasons to be sceptical.
Eddie's job description was quite unambiguous: help the US bridge the gap with the eastblock countries.

For the record: blood doping was not illegal when Eddie discovered Lemond.