LeMond III

[chuckmicD]

Re: LeMond

One of the reasons LeMond tends to get a free pass is one of the reasons why Ullrich is still respected by fans and many riders that rode with him or were his adversaries, it's because they seem like genuinely nice guys. That's just how I see it. I am sure they burned a few bridges. Those sort of things are probably inevitable in professional sports. Particularly at the highest level, and both LeMond and Ullrich were at the highest level.

erm...there are lots of "genuinely" nice guys that don't get free passes on this site.

Chris Froome is perfectly "nice"--don't mean a thing!

 

[jens_attacks]

In terms of climbing speeds, there is around 1% chance that lemond used epo

And i don't like him much.

 

[Digger]

I personally don't think he did do EPO - definitely wouldn't be sure he didn't take anabolics mind.

His lack of consistency regarding doping is the worst though.

 

[sniper]

Re:

In terms of climbing speeds, there is around 1% chance that lemond used epo

Not sure what your point is. With that logic even Jens Vogt rode on bread and water, lol.
Ow, and as we learned today, the incredible climber Dan Stevens used EPO.

btw, this is what Stevens said about that product:

"I tried EPO out of curiosity and the revolution for me when I was using it was the massive improvement in performance. The gains are just unbelievable."

"massive improvement in performance." Rings a bell much?
"just unbelievable", "miraculous", "incredible", etc.
Weren't those exactly the kind of adjectives used in the press to describe Lemond's mid-Giro improvement...

Jens: And i don't like him much.

I do. So what.

Jens: 1% chance that lemond used epo

here's your 1%:
http://postimg.org/image/vgxgqxt7f/

 

[hrotha]

What's the source of those LeMond rumours in the peloton? Which riders have talked about it?

 

[kwikki]

I've been following the sport for four decades and this is news to me.

 

[sniper]

Re:

What's the source of those LeMond rumours in the peloton? Which riders have talked about it?

according to Red Flanders, the rumor was limited to Dhaenens in 1990.

Any evidence surfaced yet? Other than the supposed comments of a guy who's been dead for 20 years? No?

In reality it's a tad bit more complicated. Dhaenens certainly is one of the first sources, but not the last. In fact, it was rumored throughout the peloton from the early 90s through to the mid-2000s. There are multiple sources for that, including, but evidently not limited to, the anonymous whistleblower in that 1990 article i just linked in my previous post. (it's in dutch, i can translate the relevant bits for you if you want.). Let me know if you need additional links (although everything is also linked upthread). See also Damiano's post here: viewtopic.php?p=1896447#p1896447

I've been following the sport for four decades and this is news to me.

Phil Liggett has been following the sport for decades but still can't add 1+1.

 

[kwikki]

Multiple sources? Let's have your 'multiple sources' then, and no 'anonymous' ones as they are worthless.

 

[thehog]

Re:

I personally don't think he did do EPO - definitely wouldn't be sure he didn't take anabolics mind.

His lack of consistency regarding doping is the worst though.

Morally and ethically, in other areas of his life, he appears to happily stray into the red zone. Which is why I find it so hard that doping is the one thing whereby he resisted temptation.

Odd character.

An hypocrite with [his] mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

I personally don't think he did do EPO - definitely wouldn't be sure he didn't take anabolics mind.

His lack of consistency regarding doping is the worst though.

Morally and ethically, in other areas of his life, he appears to happily stray into the red zone.

I'm interested in this bit. Care to expand on what you know?

 

[sniper]

...

Sniper, I think you might have a misunderstanding of some of the facts you posted above.

1. - Greg was not an anemia patient. Had had low iron stores and took a total of three iron injections. One from Van Mol with journalist Wilcockson in the room. Two from Otto Jacome over the next two weeks as directed by Van Mol.

He suffered anemia in 1989. Period. 'Patient' or no 'patient' has no bearing on the issue.
What I find interesting is the fact that Vanmol diagnosed two riders from his 1988 ADR squad with anemia...what are the odds...Makes Lemond's claim that Jacome diagnosed his anemia seem somewhat unfortunate at best.

2. - He's not missing a kidney or anything silly like that. In Greg's own words, he developed his fear of needles because when he was a kid he had recurring kidney infections (a urinary tract infection) and had to get antibiotics injections.

answered by blutto.

3. - His "entourage" didn't seem to exist.

well it did exist, and it's been written about plentifully, as it was typical of Lemond at GTs. NLLemondfans can tell you more about that. Or I can post a link about it later.

I've yet to see anything that would place David Morris at one of Greg's races.

here you go, tdf 1991:

Un jour sans, the French call these things—an off day. Every rider's greatest fear is to have one in the mountains. In a scene that looked like a wartime evacuation, a helicopter airlifted LeMond from the mountaintop. "This Tour is far from over," he said before the door shut and the chopper took off.

For him, alas, it was over. That night team doctors took blood samples that revealed that LeMond's white blood cell count was elevated to nearly twice its normal levels. Dr. David Morris, Kathy LeMond's immunologist father, saw the open sores on his son-in-law's feet and diagnosed an infection. In a way, the news gave LeMond comfort. "It's not normal that I should be in such good condition before the race and so good through the first part of the Tour and then suddenly have such a bad day," he said.

Indeed, antibiotics helped tide LeMond through the three flat stages before the Alps. But he was now riding just as the grunts in the peloton do—to survive. For the first time in his life he approached the base of the storied climb up l'Alpe d'Huez without any nervousness. The next day, on the way to Morzine, he faltered on the very first ascent. "It'll pass," Gilbert Duclos-Lassalle, a Z domestique, told LeMond, while riding beside him. "You'll do better next year."
http://www.si.com/vault/1991/08/05/124658/tour-de-courage-greg-lemond-fought-sickness-and-adversity-in-the-78th-tour-de-france-and-finished-a-hero-though-not-a-winner

Kathy was around because they moved to France in 1981 when he got his first contract. Not sure how she could've worked at her dad's practice in the US after that...

indeed i don't think she did.

There's a fantastic interview that would clarify these points further: https://www.facebook.com/2Rmag/posts/534227359949423

cheers, will look at this.

One one hand you have Armstrong, Dhaenens, Esofosfina (rode for ADR and said 'A - team' went to clinic and everyone was on an anti-depressant/upper), and Echoes who heard a rumor from the manager of an amateur Belgian team.

add Boogerd, Gisbers, Floyd, the anonymous whistleblower (1990 newspaper article posted by FGL) and the blogger who said the proriders he knew from the early 90s all thought Lemond used EPO (and who, btw, also put forward rumors of Greg being a Freddy 'pot belge' Sergeant client, but that as an aside).
And most of these people have said 'the peloton they rode in', so yes, it's fair to say the rumor ran through the peloton at large, not just small groups of racers who allegedly wanted to smear Greg.
That in itself is of course no evidence that he used EPO, a claim some posters are desperate to put in my mouth. The rumor itself is not necessarily true. But the existence of the rumor in the peloton is a fact. And it's a fact that needs to be accounted for. I see three possible accounts for the rumor:
a. one big misunderstanding
b. a huge smear campaign
c. Lemond used EPO
Take your pick.

On the other hand, I'll quote Race Radio who says it best:
...
Like Phil Anderson who said
...

I'm sorry but that's all stuff from the horse's mouth, you can't expect me to take that seriously in a discussion about whether or not a given rider doped. If we'd go there, Lance would still have his yellow jerseys and everybody would think he's clean and Floyd would've been locked up in jail or a mental hospital facing various libel suits.
Ow, and Voet said Mottet was clean? b..b..but Mottet admitted to doping in 1995:
http://www.dopeology.org/incidents/Mottet-admission/
In 1988, Vanmol said Planckaert was clean, that he didn't need any 'preparates' because he was so good. Planckaert later admitted to using EPO.
Just goes to show, these "Lemond did it clean" statements have little meaning either way. I can think of tons of reasons why people close to Lemond would want to keep that myth alive.

edit: and we should not forget that epo wasn't illegal before 1991, transfusing blood not before 1986.
So the idea of Lemond transfusing in the early stages of his carreer and/or using epo in the latter stages is compatible with the view of Lemond being clean.

 

[thehog]

Re:

LeMond testified at the Landis hearing but refused to answer questions of the opposing counsel. LeMond hardly does himself proud not to mention his habit of making illegal phone recordings.

LeMond has been every bit as paranoid of Lance as Lance was paranoid about LeMond.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

LeMond testified at the Landis hearing but refused to answer questions of the opposing counsel. LeMond hardly does himself proud not to mention his habit of making illegal phone recordings.

LeMond has been every bit as paranoid of Lance as Lance was paranoid about LeMond.

Were they? That is a genuine question. I don't actually know where Lemond was when he made the recordings but my understanding of US law pertaining to communications is that there are very few states that require two party consent.

Beyond that, Lemond's paranoia does not seem unjustified.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

All I've seen is someone on this board claiming Landis confirmed there was a rumor. I may certainly have missed it.

 

[Irondan]

Please post comments in an impersonal manner.

Discuss the post, not the poster.

Cheers!

 

[sniper]

Two months before the start of the TdF 1990:

World cycling champion Greg LeMond will be out of action for at least a month because of an unidentified virus infection, his French team Z said.

Team manager Michel Laurent said LeMond, winner of last year`s Tour de France, had gone back to the U.S. to rest and probably would resume cycling May 6 in the Tour de Trump.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1990-04-03/sports/9001290392_1_unidentified-virus-infection-michel-laurent-greg-lemond

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re:

Good ol' Saint LeMond. After Floyd tested positive, LeMond began to use it to attack Armstrong. Floyd called LeMond to tell him he had enough problems to deal with and it be easier for him if LeMond would leave him out of LeMond's feud with Lance. Instead LeMond used the opportunity to lie about Landis admitting to doping. Nice guy.

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: LeMond

Let's also dismiss the idea that drugs before EPO didn't make a difference. Many anabolics have an effect on hematocrit. This is well known. For example, an ex pro explained to me that his went up by three points when using HGH with no additional drugs. He gained around eight Watts per point. So with a 400 W FTP, his gain was ~6%, which is absolutely massive at the elite level. Yes, Martha, the steroids they were using in the 80s did make a big difference.

The only relevant study I could find reported no effect of HGH on hematocrit, though that was in animals. There are several review articles that claim that meta-analyses show that testosterone can increase HT, and it's even reported as a major effect of replacement therapy, but when one looks at the actual studies, the effect appears quite minor. It should also be emphasized that these studies were generally carried out with older men, often with T deficiency.

i think if steroids or HGH could robustly and reliably increase HT, there wouldn't have been so much interest in using EPO. It may be that these drugs increase HT in some individuals, but I don't think they make a very good substitute for EPO.

Funny enough, body building sites are filled with questions by AAS users dealing with high hematocrit, sometimes in the upper fifties. Solutions extend to making regular blood donations or even bleeding bleeding themselves. I don't think leeches have been advised but I would not be surprised. The effect varies from person to person and substance to substance.

I used to think that steroids would not make much of a difference for cycling because the studies for the effect on aerobic endurance sports don't show they help. You get a much different picture when talking with people who have used. The acid test is whether they think they could compete clean against themselves on steroids. The response is always to laugh or look at you like you are stupid. It may have been possible to compete at the Tour when stimulants were the drug of the day, but when steroids entered the picture, no way. We need to move the" possible to win the Tour without drugs" era back at least ten years. That puts LeMond smack dab in the center of a time when all his rivals were gaining a huge advantage.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Good ol' Saint LeMond. After Floyd tested positive, LeMond began to use it to attack Armstrong. Floyd called LeMond to tell him he had enough problems to deal with and it be easier for him if LeMond would leave him out of LeMond's feud with Lance. Instead LeMond used the opportunity to lie about Landis admitting to doping. Nice guy.

I don't think he's saint. Not a fan of the guy off the bike, and not my favorite on it. No one else is calling him a saint. None of it has bearing on whether he doped, you're just going for character assassination to smear him. Why?

Landis didn't admit to doping to Lemond? I hadn't heard that. He certainly admitted to it later. Did you hear that Landis threatened to out Lemond as having been sexually abused as a child? Oh, he blamed that on his manager. Nice guy.

None of this has any relevance on whether Lemond doped. Definitely has some about Landis having doped, one can't argue about that. But there's another thread for that.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

If you say the rumor is unfounded, I can perfectly live with that.

So, moving on, there's plenty of interesting stuff that remains to be addressed, such as:
What was David Morris' role in the medical guidance of Lemond.
Who were the two ADR riders diagnosed with anemia by Vanmol in 1988?
Whatever happened to Halupczok in 1989/90?
What to make of Lemond's kidney condition? One kidney, and a chronic kidney infection, according to Lemond. Anybody know when Lemond mentioned his chronic kidney condition for the first time? Was it pre- or post-Giro 1989?
What about the unidentified virus that kept him out for a month in the run up to the 1990 TdF?
Feeling weak and suffering anemia in May 1989 (Giro), unidentified virus in April 1990 and feeling weak in May 1990 (Tour de Trump). What are the odds? (honest question)
What was Lemond doing in Poland 1978?

 

[Spawn of e]

Re:

Two months before the start of the TdF 1990:

World cycling champion Greg LeMond will be out of action for at least a month because of an unidentified virus infection, his French team Z said.

Team manager Michel Laurent said LeMond, winner of last year`s Tour de France, had gone back to the U.S. to rest and probably would resume cycling May 6 in the Tour de Trump.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1990-04-03/sports/9001290392_1_unidentified-virus-infection-michel-laurent-greg-lemond

sniper -

I asked this in the other thread where GL was running away with the poll about dirtiest doper.

When did Out of Competition testing start happening in cycling?

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Re:

Good ol' Saint LeMond. After Floyd tested positive, LeMond began to use it to attack Armstrong. Floyd called LeMond to tell him he had enough problems to deal with and it be easier for him if LeMond would leave him out of LeMond's feud with Lance. Instead LeMond used the opportunity to lie about Landis admitting to doping. Nice guy.

I don't think he's saint. Not a fan of the guy off the bike, and not my favorite on it. Nno one else is calling him a saint. None of it has bearing on whether he doped, you're just going for character assassination to smear him. Why?

Landis didn't admit to doping to Lemond? I hadn't heard that. He certainly admitted to it later. Did you hear that Landis threatened to out Lemond as having been sexually abused as a child? Oh, he blamed that on his manager. Nice guy.

None of this has any relevance on whether Lemond doped. Definitely has some about Landis having doped, one can't argue about that. But there's another thread for that.

You are the one going out of your way to attack Floyd, as though it has a bearing on whether it was common knowledge in the peloton that LeMond was one of the first EPO users. Congratulations for continuing cycling's tradition pillorying the messenger.

I am still waiting for an explanation from you guys for LeMond refusing to call out his rivals, who all doped and took wins from him. Instead he happily cavorts with them like a pig in a sty. Too afraid of what they and other contemporaries might say if he ratted on rider from his own generation?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Two months before the start of the TdF 1990:

World cycling champion Greg LeMond will be out of action for at least a month because of an unidentified virus infection, his French team Z said.

Team manager Michel Laurent said LeMond, winner of last year`s Tour de France, had gone back to the U.S. to rest and probably would resume cycling May 6 in the Tour de Trump.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1990-04-03/sports/9001290392_1_unidentified-virus-infection-michel-laurent-greg-lemond

sniper -

I asked this in the other thread where GL was running away with the poll about dirtiest doper.

When did Out of Competition testing start happening in cycling?

it's a good question, and relevant not only in the context of his 1990 preparation, but also other OOC training periods he spent in the US and which, according to this post by Franklin (link upcoming), raised eyebrows in the peloton at the time. Maybe someone knows more about that.

Anyway, I have no idea when it was introduced, but I would assume relatively recently. Post-nineties?
I could be totally wrong.

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Re:

This whole discussion is typical Clinic BS, where the orthodoxy rationalizes its dogma. This place is now officially no different than Bike ***.

 

[Spawn of e]

Re: Re:

Two months before the start of the TdF 1990:

World cycling champion Greg LeMond will be out of action for at least a month because of an unidentified virus infection, his French team Z said.

Team manager Michel Laurent said LeMond, winner of last year`s Tour de France, had gone back to the U.S. to rest and probably would resume cycling May 6 in the Tour de Trump.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1990-04-03/sports/9001290392_1_unidentified-virus-infection-michel-laurent-greg-lemond

sniper -

I asked this in the other thread where GL was running away with the poll about dirtiest doper.

When did Out of Competition testing start happening in cycling?

it's a good question, and relevant in the context of his 1990 preparation.
tbh, i have no idea. I would assume it's something quite recent. Post-nineties.
But I could be wrong.

It's a big question, assuming of course things weren't being covered up then. In that case it would make no difference. I think we know the answer to that, so it probably doesn't make any difference, especially before the internet and info age. I've done searches and can't seem to find anything on when it went into affect.

Moving on, people stating roids have no impact are idiots. How can gaining strength, if it is done without a offset in weight (for a climber), not be of benefit? One of the biggest impacts is when you get off of them, all of that massive training you were able to do when on them is a big benefit a month or two later.