LeMond III

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
I agree with that. There must a video floating around the webz where at least Kathy LeMond and I think Greg also about the death of Johannes Draaijer. Kathy talks about being called in the middle of the night by Draaijers' wife who was in a blink panic that her husband was't breathing anymore. Now I don't how many years after his death that was recorded but I distinctly remember either Kathy or Greg or both talking about the possibility at the time of his death that his death was due to a new type of drugs that was being used by sportsmen. Now it can be coloring the facts years after the death (if that was when the interview took place) or it is what is that LeMond was aware that something was amiss.

EDIT: the interview was a later date and basically Lemond stated he didn't know until the time Draaijer died.

yes i know. It was discused several times.
The question is how it adds up to earlier accounts of when he 'learned' about EPO.
Your edit is crucial in that respect. Indeed the Draaijer interview was from a more recent date (I think it was the Kimmage interview, could it be?), and it directly contradicts earlier accounts, such as this one from 2006:

"I went through that whole thing until 93 when we found out from another rider on the ONCE team what was going on. And it was EPO, Growth Hormone, Testosterone. It was Spanish and Italian riders that were the leaders. And at that time several doctors were trainng up to 40, 50 riders and they just dominated every event they went into. And the French riders basically fell of the face of the earth."
viewtopic.php?p=889634#p889634

Who's he trying to fool here?
For real, we know ADR (Vanmol) and PDM were at the forefront, just as much as the Italians and the Spaniards...and the Americans.
In 1990 already there is an anomous whistleblower accusing Lemond and the Americans of EPO. Regardless of the veracity of that rumor, you really think he wouldn't have heard about that? It was published in the frigging newspaper. And around the same time he invests in a company dedicated to the exploitation of EPO.
Come on now.

Or this account from NLLemondfans (and Boyer):

...
On the matter of EPO, I discussed this with Eric Boyer recently and what he told me is interesting : even in 92, Greg was not focused on other riders taking EPO, he was focused on trying to understand what was happening to him first and foremost.

I mean, he saw Draaijer die, but we're to assume "even in 92 he was not focused on other riders taking EPO"? Come on already.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

Comments from Steve Tilford in his blog:

Guys-I was hesitant to do this post because of the “issues” that Eddie B. had, especially the 1984 Olympic games. Doping in the sport of cycling was a completely different animal back in the 80’s. If you did happen happen to come back positive, you sat out 2 weeks. Look at Alexi’s history. How many days did he serve for, what, 3 doping violations?

What happened in LA with the blood transfusions was inexcusable. Ed Burke, Falsetti, Eddie and gang got very lucky they didn’t kill someone in that fiasco. But, it wasn’t against the rules. No one lost an Olympic medal, no one had to sit out a day.

I don’t think it is fair to label Eddie B. as the “Father of Doping”. Not even close. I have never run into one rider that has told me to my face that Eddie B. encouraged them to use drugs to race bicycles. (Inga, are you stating that here, that he offered or explicitly said to you that you needed to take drugs to race bicycles?)

Like I stated in my post, Eddie and I didn’t get along very well for a very long time. But, there was never any issue with anything to do with doping in the sport. I know lots of guys that Eddie trained early in their careers. And none of them ever took drugs to race bicycles, ever. And they all would have told me if Eddie was trying to get them on a program.

Eddie was definitely not into Title IX or women’s lib, being from an Eastern European country. He said many things that seemed un-American at the time. But, I think he was trying to be funny, and get a reaction, not being sexist.

I guess I was just writing about my own interaction with Eddie B. I got out from under his tutelage as soon as I had the opportunity. It was more of a personality conflict, not a moral one.

Full blog post:
http://stevetilford.com/2013/02/19/eddie-b/

That's first-person narrative from someone who was there and knew all the guys, and has never had doping associated with his name.

Well that's it then. EB did not get anyone on a program. Def not blood doping program.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

darn, i still owe pcmg76 those eddie b links.
There's more to come tomorrow (it's officially past my bedtime), but I will already leave this here:

"I don't know why it took so long for this to come out," the elder Van Haute said from his home in Chicago. "I was out there in Los Angeles for the Games. Everybody knew about it. From what I understand, if you didn't do it, you wouldn't be on the team."

The elder Van Haute supplied Danny's phone number, but he wasn't available for comment. Neither were the other implicated medalists. But Van Haute's father explained that Danny first had learned of the procedure during a trip to Poland with the Junior Team.
http://articles.mcall.com/1985-01-12/sports/2463039_1_blood-doping-olympic-trials-elder

I hope there is more to come about the Poland claim. It is always best to have something to corroborate hearsay evidence. As a reminder it was stated below as a "fact that he took US juniors to Poland to teach them how to carry out autologous transfusions." No where does the elder Van Haute say that the riders (plural) were sent to Poland to learn how to transfuse.

viewtopic.php?p=1896629#p1896629

 

[sniper]

Re:

Comments from Steve Tilford in his blog:
(snipped)
Full blog post:
http://stevetilford.com/2013/02/19/eddie-b/
That's first-person narrative from someone who was there and knew all the guys, and has never had doping associated with his name.

You must have missed my post on one of Eddie B's cyclists Alexi Grewal from yesterday.
viewtopic.php?p=1905397#p1905397

Doping ignored
In 1979 and following years at the Red Zinger and its successor, the Coors International, I noticed that riders were systematically required to submit urine samples but no one ever tested positive. When I looked into that I learned that these tests were just for show and that all urine samples were submitted to the "toilet test," being flushed down the drain so as to save the substantial costs of having them tested.
The Coors race subsequently started doing actual lab tests, probably as a result of my inquiry, but even that program went off track in 1984 just before the Olympic Games. At the Coors race that year in Vail, Alexi Grewal, who had been selected for the U.S. Olympic Road Race team, tested positive for taking ephedrine and admitted it, which would bar him from participating in the Olympics. However under the existing rules his confession didn't count--it had to be proven by a lab test. The Executive Director of USCF then recruited the Chief Medical Officer of the U.S. Olympic Committee and, ignoring the fact that they were both responsible for enforcing drug control regulations, they concocted a defense claiming that the drug test had not been done properly, which got Grewal off the hook and allowed him to win a gold medal in the 1984 Los Angeles Olympic Games. For a more complete account see:

Better tell Steve

But interesting, I didn't know Steve was so invested in the Lemond-is-clean narrative.
Does add up with the fact that he got anti-allergy treatment from Lemond's father in law.

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

...
I agree with that. There must a video floating around the webz where at least Kathy LeMond and I think Greg also about the death of Johannes Draaijer. Kathy talks about being called in the middle of the night by Draaijers' wife who was in a blink panic that her husband was't breathing anymore. Now I don't how many years after his death that was recorded but I distinctly remember either Kathy or Greg or both talking about the possibility at the time of his death that his death was due to a new type of drugs that was being used by sportsmen. Now it can be coloring the facts years after the death (if that was when the interview took place) or it is what is that LeMond was aware that something was amiss.

EDIT: the interview was a later date and basically Lemond stated he didn't know until the time Draaijer died.

yes i know. It was discused several times.
The question is how it adds up to earlier accounts of when he 'learned' about EPO.
Your edit is crucial in that respect. Indeed the Draaijer interview was from a more recent date (I think it was the Kimmage interview, could it be?), and it directly contradicts earlier accounts, such as this one from 2006:

"I went through that whole thing until 93 when we found out from another rider on the ONCE team what was going on. And it was EPO, Growth Hormone, Testosterone. It was Spanish and Italian riders that were the leaders. And at that time several doctors were trainng up to 40, 50 riders and they just dominated every event they went into. And the French riders basically fell of the face of the earth."
viewtopic.php?p=889634#p889634

Who's he trying to fool here?
For real, we know ADR (Vanmol) and PDM were at the forefront, just as much as the Italians and the Spaniards...and the Americans.
In 1990 already there is an anomous whistleblower accusing Lemond and the Americans of EPO. Regardless of the veracity of that rumor, you really think he wouldn't have heard about that? It was published in the frigging newspaper. And around the same time he invests in a company dedicated to the exploitation of EPO.
Come on now.

Or this account from NLLemondfans (and Boyer):

...
On the matter of EPO, I discussed this with Eric Boyer recently and what he told me is interesting : even in 92, Greg was not focused on other riders taking EPO, he was focused on trying to understand what was happening to him first and foremost.

I mean, he saw Draaijer die, but we're to assume "even in 92 he was not focused on other riders taking EPO"? Come on already.

I agree that it is unlikely that LeMond hadn't heard rumors prior '93 or even '90. Where we disagree is that I don't find it implausible per say that didn't focus on who was or wasn't on EPO. If he genuinely felt that something was wrong with his body I find it quite normal that his main focus was not on EPO.

Furthermore his memory might be sketchy on when he heard what. That doesn't particularly strikes me as odd given the way interview with LeMond tend and tended to go. He might well have been coloring facts afterwards as a lot of people are prone to do, mind you.

You appear to draw different conclusions from all this, whereas for me it really isn't a game or mind changer.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Comments from Steve Tilford in his blog:
(snipped)
Full blog post:
http://stevetilford.com/2013/02/19/eddie-b/
That's first-person narrative from someone who was there and knew all the guys, and has never had doping associated with his name.

You must have missed my post on one of Eddie B's cyclists Alexi Grewal from yesterday.
viewtopic.php?p=1905397#p1905397

Doping ignored
In 1979 and following years at the Red Zinger and its successor, the Coors International, I noticed that riders were systematically required to submit urine samples but no one ever tested positive. When I looked into that I learned that these tests were just for show and that all urine samples were submitted to the "toilet test," being flushed down the drain so as to save the substantial costs of having them tested.
The Coors race subsequently started doing actual lab tests, probably as a result of my inquiry, but even that program went off track in 1984 just before the Olympic Games. At the Coors race that year in Vail, Alexi Grewal, who had been selected for the U.S. Olympic Road Race team, tested positive for taking ephedrine and admitted it, which would bar him from participating in the Olympics. However under the existing rules his confession didn't count--it had to be proven by a lab test. The Executive Director of USCF then recruited the Chief Medical Officer of the U.S. Olympic Committee and, ignoring the fact that they were both responsible for enforcing drug control regulations, they concocted a defense claiming that the drug test had not been done properly, which got Grewal off the hook and allowed him to win a gold medal in the 1984 Los Angeles Olympic Games. For a more complete account see:

Better tell Steve

But interesting, I didn't know Steve was so invested in the Lemond-is-clean narrative.
Does add up with the fact that he got anti-allergy treatment from Lemond's father in law.

steve will know that...it was widely reported even before the games

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Well that's it then. EB did not get anyone on a program. Def not blood doping program.

true story, I'm glad Tilford set the record straight in that blogpost.

U.S. cycling coach defends blood doping

Mercury News Wire Services

Blood doping is legal and should be a personal matter left to the individual athlete, the coach of the U.S. Olympic cycling team says.

"Blood doping is a legal thing. When it's legal, why does the media make it a big problem?" asked Olympic team coach Edward Borysewicz, who also is national coaching director of the U.S. Cycling Federation.

Blood doping, also known as blood packing or blood boosting, is a procedure in which an individual receives transfusions of his own or a relative's blood. The technique is aimed at increasing an athlete's red-blood-cell count and oxygen level, thereby increasing stamina.

Some doctors and members of the U.S. Olympic Committee have claimed that some cyclists received such transfusions before their Olympic events.

"It's legal; it's not illegal," Bory­sewicz said in Honolulu. "So when it's legal, then whose business is it who's getting the injections?

"To even ask the question I think is not polite," he said. "That is an invasion of privacy, and that is not polite, and it's illegal."

http://web.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/polite.htm

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

...
I agree with that. There must a video floating around the webz where at least Kathy LeMond and I think Greg also about the death of Johannes Draaijer. Kathy talks about being called in the middle of the night by Draaijers' wife who was in a blink panic that her husband was't breathing anymore. Now I don't how many years after his death that was recorded but I distinctly remember either Kathy or Greg or both talking about the possibility at the time of his death that his death was due to a new type of drugs that was being used by sportsmen. Now it can be coloring the facts years after the death (if that was when the interview took place) or it is what is that LeMond was aware that something was amiss.

EDIT: the interview was a later date and basically Lemond stated he didn't know until the time Draaijer died.

yes i know. It was discused several times.
The question is how it adds up to earlier accounts of when he 'learned' about EPO.
Your edit is crucial in that respect. Indeed the Draaijer interview was from a more recent date (I think it was the Kimmage interview, could it be?), and it directly contradicts earlier accounts, such as this one from 2006:

"I went through that whole thing until 93 when we found out from another rider on the ONCE team what was going on. And it was EPO, Growth Hormone, Testosterone. It was Spanish and Italian riders that were the leaders. And at that time several doctors were trainng up to 40, 50 riders and they just dominated every event they went into. And the French riders basically fell of the face of the earth."
viewtopic.php?p=889634#p889634

Who's he trying to fool here?
For real, we know ADR (Vanmol) and PDM were at the forefront, just as much as the Italians and the Spaniards...and the Americans.
In 1990 already there is an anomous whistleblower accusing Lemond and the Americans of EPO. Regardless of the veracity of that rumor, you really think he wouldn't have heard about that? It was published in the frigging newspaper. And around the same time he invests in a company dedicated to the exploitation of EPO.
Come on now.

Or this account from NLLemondfans (and Boyer):

...
On the matter of EPO, I discussed this with Eric Boyer recently and what he told me is interesting : even in 92, Greg was not focused on other riders taking EPO, he was focused on trying to understand what was happening to him first and foremost.

I mean, he saw Draaijer die, but we're to assume "even in 92 he was not focused on other riders taking EPO"? Come on already.

sniper...he gives interviews not sworn affidavits

you could be forgiven for not focussing' on epo until 92/93 as it wasn't a game changer...we've been through this

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
steve will know that...it was widely reported even before the games

So he's deliberately lying about it?

From Red's post:

But, there was never any issue with anything to do with doping in the sport. I know lots of guys that Eddie trained early in their careers. And none of them ever took drugs to race bicycles, ever. And they all would have told me if Eddie was trying to get them on a program.

From another Tilford blog:

Alexi and I go way back.
http://stevetilford.com/2010/09/25/alexi-grewal-interesting-dude/

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

But interesting, I didn't know Steve was so invested in the Lemond-is-clean narrative.
Does add up with the fact that he got anti-allergy treatment from Lemond's father in law.

Weak argument. Attack the message not the messenger. I am sure Tilford has undying gratitude for LeMond because his FIL was unable to solve his allergy issues. Pffttt... So much so that he was doing his new allergy tests with someone else.

The last time I did allergy testing was in the early 80’s. I went up to La Crosse, Wis. and saw Greg Lemond’s father-in-law, Dr. David Morris. He pricked my back in a grid pattern, something over a 100 different things and I was allergic to every single one of them except formaldehyde. The nurse told me that it was a bad thing to be allergic to. New carpet, clothing, furniture, etc. was packed in it. Anyway, my back and arms looked like I had gigantic hives all melted together. I remember telling him I thought if he just injected water under my skin I though it would swell up.

I took sublingual drops for maybe a year, but never felt any different. Maybe it’s all a waste of time, but I feel like I should be a little proactive this year with health things, so I’m going to try it again.

http://stevetilford.com/2013/05/17/doctors-visits-all-day-then-gonna-try-to-race/

 

[sniper]

@djpbaltimore:
steve is either ignorant on eddie b's (and e.g. alexi grewal's) history, or he's protecting him (them).
that's not attacking the messenger. that's making an observation.
i have a hard time believing he's ignorant, but if that's what you want to believe, fine with me.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

...
steve will know that...it was widely reported even before the games

So he's deliberately lying about it?

From Red's post:

But, there was never any issue with anything to do with doping in the sport. I know lots of guys that Eddie trained early in their careers. And none of them ever took drugs to race bicycles, ever. And they all would have told me if Eddie was trying to get them on a program.

From another Tilford blog:

Alexi and I go way back.
http://stevetilford.com/2010/09/25/alexi-grewal-interesting-dude/

bloomin eck

its a blog...and he even mentions it in the same blog post if you read the first bit...if he is 'deliberately lying' about it he's not really very good at covering his tracks.....

or, he's just a bit clumsy at writing as he's probably not expecting it to be evidence in your court

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Yep we all have been through this.

Some observations. If someones father says dude went to Poland with the Junior Team. That says to me there was more than one cyclist because he said with the Junior Team. What it doesn't say is that the TEAM were learning how to blood dope. But there is an implication with the way I read it that they were all there as a team. Maybe they didn't all participate in blood doping and maybe they did.

Folks here saying it is hearsay evidence etc. Well the same can be said about other links that have been posted up here to counter the arguments that have been made. either way on this everyone is going to disagree.

From what I can tell or understand it seems that Greg played loose on his acknowledgement of when EPO came into the peloton. I'm not convinced he ever used EPO, In my opinion he was doing other things that were illegal or banned substances.
In my opinion Greg only started his crusade against Lance until he felt the sting of not being the only USA cyclist in the spotlight. Just a few years back Cadel was linked to Ferrari and I have not noted Greg saying that Cadel's link to Ferrari is not good for the sport.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

Going after Liggett for what he said was and is fair game. Same for Tilford. Using specious logic to accuse a person of being corrupted, to discredit their words is not fair game IMO. Apples and oranges.

EDIT for Glenn. Hearsay evidence has its place in these type of inquiries. And people can definitely draw their own conclusions from what he said. But when these opinions then become stated as facts.... that is a problem.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Yep we all have been through this.

Some observations. If someones father says dude went to Poland with the Junior Team. That says to me there was more than one cyclist because he said with the Junior Team. What it doesn't say is that the TEAM were learning how to blood dope. But there is an implication with the way I read it that they were all there as a team. Maybe they didn't all participate in blood doping and maybe they did.

This is how I read it as well.

Folks here saying it is hearsay evidence etc. Well the same can be said about other links that have been posted up here to counter the arguments that have been made. either way on this everyone is going to disagree.

Remember the discussions on Armstrong prior to Floyd's emails? So many pro-Lance arguments back then sounded exactly the same as the pro-Lemond arguments we're seeing right now. It's actually quite fascinating.
I could post a couple of very fine examples, but it would just clog the thread unnecessarily.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Yep we all have been through this.

Some observations. If someones father says dude went to Poland with the Junior Team. That says to me there was more than one cyclist because he said with the Junior Team. What it doesn't say is that the TEAM were learning how to blood dope. But there is an implication with the way I read it that they were all there as a team. Maybe they didn't all participate in blood doping and maybe they did.

This is how I read it as well.

Folks here saying it is hearsay evidence etc. Well the same can be said about other links that have been posted up here to counter the arguments that have been made. either way on this everyone is going to disagree.

Remember the discussions on Armstrong prior to Floyd's emails? So many pro-Lance arguments back then sounded exactly the same as the pro-Lemond arguments we're seeing right now. It's actually quite fascinating.
I could post a couple of very fine examples, but it would just clog the thread unnecessarily.

nobody's making any pro-lemond arguments from what I read

they are debunking your anti-lemond arguments

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re:

Just a few years back Cadel was linked to Ferrari and I have not noted Greg saying that Cadel's link to Ferrari is not good for the sport.

Because no one asked him to comment on this.

 

[kwikki]

So much speculation which is not factually based.

What facts are there?

No failed dope tests (unlike Armstrong, Fignon, Merckx etc)
No attributable affirmations of doping from anybody.
Post-retirement effort to bring about change wrt doping in cycling.

Oh....and he was the key catalyst in bringing down the biggest sporting fraud in the history of cycling.

So there's that.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

Remember the discussions on Armstrong prior to Floyd's emails? So many pro-Lance arguments back then sounded exactly the same as the pro-Lemond arguments we're seeing right now. It's actually quite fascinating.
I could post a couple of very fine examples, but it would just clog the thread unnecessarily.

Tell us this again when you see someone yell "why do you love cancer so much ?"

My view is that Greg is not pretending to be somebody he is not. Many will disagree but that's how I see things. When people were defending Armstrong, they were defending an image of him that did not match the reality. So far, I stick to my guns.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

Just a few years back Cadel was linked to Ferrari and I have not noted Greg saying that Cadel's link to Ferrari is not good for the sport.

So unless Lemond picks up the baton and comments on every single GT winners he is therefore a hypocrite and therefore probably a doper. (Let's ignore the fact that he did pick THE biggest doper to comment on, which if nothing else opened HIMSELF up to scrutiny and accusations of hypocrisy from Lance boys. )

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

darn, i still owe pcmg76 those eddie b links.
There's more to come tomorrow (it's officially past my bedtime), but I will already leave this here:

"I don't know why it took so long for this to come out," the elder Van Haute said from his home in Chicago. "I was out there in Los Angeles for the Games. Everybody knew about it. From what I understand, if you didn't do it, you wouldn't be on the team."

The elder Van Haute supplied Danny's phone number, but he wasn't available for comment. Neither were the other implicated medalists. But Van Haute's father explained that Danny first had learned of the procedure during a trip to Poland with the Junior Team.
http://articles.mcall.com/1985-01-12/sports/2463039_1_blood-doping-olympic-trials-elder

And this:

U.S. cycling coach defends blood doping

Mercury News Wire Services

Blood doping is legal and should be a personal matter left to the individual athlete, the coach of the U.S. Olympic cycling team says.

"Blood doping is a legal thing. When it's legal, why does the media make it a big problem?" asked Olympic team coach Edward Borysewicz, who also is national coaching director of the U.S. Cycling Federation.

Blood doping, also known as blood packing or blood boosting, is a procedure in which an individual receives transfusions of his own or a relative's blood. The technique is aimed at increasing an athlete's red-blood-cell count and oxygen level, thereby increasing stamina.

Some doctors and members of the U.S. Olympic Committee have claimed that some cyclists received such transfusions before their Olympic events.

"It's legal; it's not illegal," Bory­sewicz said in Honolulu. "So when it's legal, then whose business is it

who's getting the injections?

"To even ask the question I think is not polite," he said. "That is an invasion of privacy, and that is not polite, and it's illegal."

http://web.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/polite.htm

and this (directly related to the previous):

Somehow, Coach Eddie B. did not get the message. About a month later, he was again being quoted in the press as saying “Blood doping is legal and should be a personal matter left up to the athlete.” Only after the Executive Director wrote him another letter telling him politely to shut up did the he stop talking about this.http://web.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/dopes.htm

That story reads totally different from the way you have presented it sniper. Firstly there seems to be a few issues with it. Danny Van Den Haute would have been a junior in 73-74 before Eddie B was even with USCF so immediately I have doubts about whether it was the junior team or not.

Lets say Van den Haute was with the junior team for whatever reason, it doesn't say anywhere the US team were doing blood transfusions. It reads more like they learned that the Eastern Europeans were blood doping during that trip, what the process was, and that is where Eddie B got the idea for the 84 Olympics. Van den Haute senior says it was never mentioned again until before the Olympics so again it doesn't seem like it was an ongoing thing within US cycling. Would be interesting to know when that trip was. I think there would have been a lot more outrage if Juniors had been subjected to those procedures

I think you have turned that story in something that it is not by putting your own particular spin on it. I have little doubt that Eddie B didn't see transfusions as wrong simply because they were not illegal at the time.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

Just a few years back Cadel was linked to Ferrari and I have not noted Greg saying that Cadel's link to Ferrari is not good for the sport.

So unless Lemond picks up the baton and comments on every single GT winners he is therefore a hypocrite and therefore probably a doper. (Let's ignore the fact that he did pick THE biggest doper to comment on, which if nothing else opened HIMSELF up to scrutiny and accusations of hypocrisy from Lance boys. )

I'll add that when Greg started questionning Armstrong, he had everything to lose in the process. He was pointing the finger (even in a subtle manner) at the most powerful man in town. It's inconsistent with view of a machiavelian, calculating spirit who managed to hide he started to blood dope at 15 and took EPO before nobody knew it existed.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Just a few years back Cadel was linked to Ferrari and I have not noted Greg saying that Cadel's link to Ferrari is not good for the sport.

So unless Lemond picks up the baton and comments on every single GT winners he is therefore a hypocrite and therefore probably a doper. (Let's ignore the fact that he did pick THE biggest doper to comment on, which if nothing else opened HIMSELF up to scrutiny and accusations of hypocrisy from Lance boys. )

I'll add that when Greg started questionning Armstrong, he had everything to lose in the process. He was pointing the finger (even in a subtle manner) at the most powerful man in town. It's inconsistent with view of a machiavelian, calculating spirit who managed to hide he started to blood dope at 15 and took EPO before nobody knew it existed.

That is not entirely true. LeMond was already losing his bike business through his own acumen. When Armstrong started promoting Trek they were going from strength to strength. The only thing LeMond was trying to do was save his own bike brand which was falling away to nothing.

By pointing the finger at Armstrong, LeMond was actually trying to gain back, not lose. That has always been his strategy. Whether a rider dopes or not wasn't high on LeMond's agenda.

Armstrong working with Ferrari was just a convenient truth for LeMond. Anyone who was on the bike game knew Armstrong was working with him well before 2001.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

Just a few years back Cadel was linked to Ferrari and I have not noted Greg saying that Cadel's link to Ferrari is not good for the sport.

So unless Lemond picks up the baton and comments on every single GT winners he is therefore a hypocrite and therefore probably a doper. (Let's ignore the fact that he did pick THE biggest doper to comment on, which if nothing else opened HIMSELF up to scrutiny and accusations of hypocrisy from Lance boys. )

I'll add that when Greg started questionning Armstrong, he had everything to lose in the process. He was pointing the finger (even in a subtle manner) at the most powerful man in town. It's inconsistent with view of a machiavelian, calculating spirit who managed to hide he started to blood dope at 15 and took EPO before nobody knew it existed.

Quite.

Imagine you are a massive doper who won 3 tours. "Apparently" everyone in the peloton knew you were doping. So far nobody has thrown any mud at you let alone make it stick.

You have a sporting legacy to protect and you don't want 'the truth' getting out.

You also have a successful bike brand to protect. It is your livelihood and you don't want your bike brand associated with cheating. It doesn't sell well.

So what do you do? Do you keep your head down and say nothing so that you don't p1ss in the soup and stir up a hornets nest.

Or do you stir up a hornets nest for absolutely no possible gain for yourself. Let's face it, you dirtied the sport too, so its not like you give a toss about clean sport.

Yeah....Let's just stir up the nest....why not

 

[kwikki]

Somebody up thread has made a claim that Lemond's bike business was going down the drain prior to 2001. This claim from "thehog" needs to be validated with evidence.

Interestingly, one of Armstrong's assistants, Mike Anderson, went on the record in a published article in Outside Online saying that Armstrong had told Anderson that he was going to “put LeMond out of business” over comments about him and Ferrari.

So let's see the evidence that Lemond didn't have much of a business to be put out of.