LeMond: Ullrich is the best rider of his generation, he would have won every Tour

[thehog]

Yea, much better than anatomy jock race, i suppose.

Well it was. All the top amateurs were there. He was 19. It was a multi-stage tour, not much climbing but still at 19 in the non-EPO era is indicative of his talent.

LeMomd is right the guy was probably the greatest cyclist seen in the last 20 years. But we'll never know.

Talent on a stick.

 

[D-Queued]

I think below that is possible with steel. My 52 cm colnago technos with dura ace was 18 lbs.

The whole new low bike weight thing I think is kind of bunk. You only get marginal gains. 3 lbs, bike on 150 lbs ,bike and rider, is only 2% and so if you were going straight up at the same power output you would be going 2% faster. 2% gain on the alpe de heuz would only be about 45-50 seconds. But it wouldn't even be that much because it isn't a straight up climb. So, maybe it only makes a 20 second difference. Equipment only bring marginal gains. The way that Froome rode last year at the TDF, he could have won mountain stage easily on a good steel frame or even an old aluminum frame.

Might have been possible to hit 18 with steel. Not sure what the weight differences may have been with Dura Ace, but LeMond/Z rode Campy. Including with massive C-Record brake calipers.

Dave.

 

[D-Queued]

LeMond is right about Ullrich. Won the Commonwealth Bank Cycle Classic at 19. All class, all power. Just a pity cycling became doped filled because he would have won every event going.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/young-ullrich-remembered

Notwithstanding the learned opinions that you and Greg hold, this argument rings hollow.

First, Ullrich was the GDR champ in 1988, a year before the wall came down. He was brought up in the GDR sports training system.

From the extensive insight that we have, it would have been extremely unusual for such a talent to go through that system without the doctors getting involved.

Personally, I wouldn't even consider him clean until I could review his Stasi file. He absolutely had one.

Second, is there a magic doping age?

Maybe he wasn't using EPO at 19 - only because it wasn't yet available - but how do we know he wasn't on every pharmaceutical that the GDR could supply? The GDR ran what may have been the most sophisticated doping system ever. Whether later eclipsed (e.g. Balco, China, Jamaica, USPS/Ferrari, Fuentes) could be fuel for an interesting argument, it certainly was the most sophisticated at the time.

Dave.

 

[andy1234]

I think below that is possible with steel. My 52 cm colnago technos with dura ace was 18 lbs.

The whole new low bike weight thing I think is kind of bunk. You only get marginal gains. 3 lbs, bike on 150 lbs ,bike and rider, is only 2% and so if you were going straight up at the same power output you would be going 2% faster. 2% gain on the alpe de heuz would only be about 45-50 seconds. But it wouldn't even be that much because it isn't a straight up climb. So, maybe it only makes a 20 second difference. Equipment only bring marginal gains. The way that Froome rode last year at the TDF, he could have won mountain stage easily on a good steel frame or even an old aluminum frame.

Yeah, because acceleration and deceleration on a climb aren't affected by weight

 

[Franklin]

That's nice.....I am American who left the country when I was 9 and was raised in several European countries. Please save me the "Uniformed American" pandering.

I did not start that RR. I did not snark "if you didn't read it in Winning". Take a long look in the mirror if this offends you.

Perhaps Greg could have rocked the boat a bit more with the Euro press but I know for a fact that he was vocally against doping to his teammates, staff, management, etc. That is not just Greg telling me that but the riders he rode with, the staff he worked with and a wide range of folks close to him

Point out where this is contested. Indeed, as you might not realize, I have second hand knowledge about this as well. There's very good reason to believe Greg was clean and indeed keeping people internally at an arms length.

But again, everyone must acknowledge that this did not stop Greg associating with dopers, doctors and dirty teams. Somehow it's offensive to you that Greg was part of the Omerta.... well, sorry, that's just how it is. I can't help you with that.

To put it like this: If we believe Greg, why can't we believe Cadel? It's not that we have doubts on Cadel, consensus here on Cadel is quite bad. but if we compare it with Greg, the differences are actually small. Doper teams, Doper doctors, Doper friends, suspicuous events (one I believe to be innocent!). Yet if we comment on Greg we are part of the awful smear campaign against our patron saint. When we mention Cadel it's grumbling "aye's" all around.

Greg is off with la Vie Claire but he is correct when he talks about how how Paul hated doping and was convinced that riders did not need it. In many respects Paul was correct.....until EPO came along

Point out where I contest this. my point is simply that Greg's opinion is not always correct. Indeed how could he miss the many positives of Kim at LVC? It's not being incorrect... if it would be Wiggins we would call him a big fat liar.

And knowing Greg, yeah, I'd say it's either a missquote or simple enthusiast embellishment. Greg is okay.

Greg calling out PDM was huge. How many times did a Pro, let alone the Tour de France Champion, even mention doping in the 80's? Seldom if ever......except to complain about testing

It was not huge considering it was just in an American newspaper. Even you can't deny Greg's stance was hardly a blip on the radar in 1989.

More important: Greg's lawyer was not as much calling out PDM, but also reacting on the barrage of testo positives at his old team. You make it sound as if Greg was the one who exposed PDM while there was already a huge scandal in the papers. Greg was rather late to the party of pointing fingers at PDM. And that's okay.

We will disagree about this, but the facts indicate that Greg was just as unwilling to talk about dope as the next rider. Even now we see a tendency to put Greg's "calling out PDM" as something amazing, while of course he was facing a barrage of questions about just that. It's great that he told the truth and he needs to get full points for that, but the idea that he was volunteering this and unveiling surprising facts is just silly. there were years of scandals surrounding PDM. It was the Festina of it's age.

 

[Franklin]

Compared to today we were in the dark ages back then for anything about the sport. France had a few magazines. Italy, Belgium, too. Spain was a joke. They barely had it on TV. Nothing like what we have today. When Theunisse tested posistve in 1988 he tried to punch Köchli when Paul laughed at him for getting popped. These days that would have been big news, back then hardly a mention.

Race, there was a lot more coverage in the papers and magazines in the European countries. Everyone was sticking his ear to the radio when on vacation (no tv on vacation!). There was no European commercial TV, just a few channels. No internet. The TdF was huge event, it didn't compete with anything else.

And Theunissen escapades hit frontpages together with scathing comments from the tour Management about PDM.

The idea that the PDM positives were hardly reported is just silly. Just like Pollentier, Zoetemelk etc. that made the frontpages and was fodder for the press. The big difference is that it was not sanctioned by ban, but by a time penalty.

 

[andy1234]

Am a little late to the bike weight discussion. BUT, I can advise with a high degree of certainty that LeMond's bike was pretty close to 18 lbs, including his Time pedals but without bidons or cages. Very heavy by today's standards, but light at the time.

One of the biggest weight improvements was the move to carbon cranks. Brakes are much lighter than what he was riding and he rode a heavier seat.

Dave.

The biggest weight saving by far is in the wheels and the frame.
Those frames were about 1.4kg in a 22 inch. The forks on those frames had an alloy steerer, and weighed almost as much as some of the frames being ridden now. It was a 1.9kg frame and forks.

A good set of climbing wheels is 1.1kg including a cassette which is about 1kg less than the weight of the C record on Campag sigma, with a threaded block, being used at the time.

There is a saving of about 2kg just in the wheels and frameset.

Given the size, If LeMonds TVT C record bike was less than 20lbs, with a computer, scott drop ins etc, then it probably wasn't standard issue.

I don't know about the Calfee frame he started using in 91 though.

 

[pmcg76]

That's nice.....I am American who left the country when I was 9 and was raised in several European countries. Please save me the "Uniformed American" pandering.

I have been very closely following the topic of doping in sport for decades, over 30 years. I am well aware of what was being discussed. I also know many of the people that you have just seen in magazine. Perhaps Greg could have rocked the boat a bit more with the Euro press but I know for a fact that he was vocally against doping to his teammates, staff, management, etc. That is not just Greg telling me that but the riders he rode with, the staff he worked with and a wide range of folks close to him

Greg is off with la Vie Claire but he is correct when he talks about how how Paul hated doping and was convinced that riders did not need it. In many respects Paul was correct.....until EPO came along

Greg calling out PDM was huge. How many times did a Pro, let alone the Tour de France Champion, even mention doping in the 80's? Seldom if ever......except to complain about testing

Except it was LeMond's ex-lawyer who made public the info on LeMonds issues with PDM, not LeMond. Greg didn't call PDM out publically at all. Clearly this was a matter discussed in private with the lawyer, possibly when LeMond was trying to negotiate his move away from PDM. The lawyer then probably sold the story to the LA Times just after Greg won the Tour in 89(What timing). When LeMond first head of the story, he was actually considering legal action but once he realised he came out well, he backed down. So it was the former lawyer who called out PDM publically, not LeMond who said nowt. Greg might have had an anti-doping stance but it wasn't a public one. There could be lots of riders in the same boat currently.

Yes, Paul Kochli was an advocate of clean cycling but that didn't mean he could keep an eye on all his riders all the time. That is not to cast doubt on LeMond but rather dispel the idea that La Vie Claire was a clean team. Kochli left that team to set up his own team in which he had more control and authority. He took the likes of Bauer, Ruttimann with him as they were probably the clean riders. His budget probably wouldn't stretch to include LeMond. I started a thread on Kochli and his team a few years back.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=9803

 

[TANK91]

Greg is a hypocrite his goal was to be best from USA. You can see how this vile man works look at him in the TDF lapping it up with Big Mig and Hinault. Also im a huge fan but if Armstrong done Froome's ride in mountains he would have went nuts he was actually backing Froome all TDF.

 

[Avoriaz]

Race, there was a lot more coverage in the papers and magazines in the European countries. Everyone was sticking his ear to the radio when on vacation (no tv on vacation!). There was no European commercial TV, just a few channels. No internet. The TdF was huge event, it didn't compete with anything else.

And Theunissen escapades hit frontpages together with scathing comments from the tour Management about PDM.

The idea that the PDM positives were hardly reported is just silly. Just like Pollentier, Zoetemelk etc. that made the frontpages and was fodder for the press. The big difference is that it was not sanctioned by ban, but by a time penalty.

I imagine Pollentier was big news, though this was before my time. My first memory of drugs in the sport was Pascal Simon testing positive in the 1983 Dauphine Libere and penalised ten minutes. This handed victory to a certain Greg LeMond. WHilst it was reported, it wasn't on the front page of Cycling Weekly (that was probably Ian Cammish riding a 12 hour in a forest, or Keith Lambert winning a sprint in Stoke or something....).

Busts were reported, but I think because the penalties were quite meagre, so was the backlash. First biggie for me was Delgado and the Probenecid, I think

 

[Le breton]

First, Ullrich was the GDR champ in 1988, a year before the wall came down. He was brought up in the GDR sports training system.
.......
Second, is there a magic doping age?

Maybe he wasn't using EPO at 19 - only because it wasn't yet available -

Dave.

Ullrich was born in december 1973.

In summer 1988 he was therefore 14 and 1/2 years old. What age category did he win? 14-15?

By early 1993, when he was 19, EPO had already provided us with 2 TdF (1991-92) victories and 3 Giri d'Italia (90-91-92).
So EPO was definitely available when Ullrich reached 19.

Now, no matter how terrible I think the situation was in the GDR, i have a hard time believing that they were doping 14 y.old cyclists for national competitions, it would make no sense whatsoever.

 

[vrusimov]

Ullrich emerged from the former East Germany just after the wall came down. That timing puts his formative years effectively at the height of the Stasi supported doping programs. Well documented to initiate doping in teenage years.

1. We know that he doped. That is enough to mess up any conjecture right there.

2. And, we know that he associated with former E. German experts. Minimally, that taints his formative years.

Using his own comments:

Adding 1 + 1 = you cannot separate his talent from the doping that we know of and of that doping which almost certainly preceded what we know of.

Dave.

Lemond should just quit while he is ahead. He has done much to resurrect himself over the last few years but this is just silliness. It has been proffered that he was "addicted" to doping before he suddenly emerged on the scene. First Froome now Ulrich ... when both are questionable.

I love Greg, but there has always been a certain naivete to his enunciations. Moreover, I find it quite telling that he has never once paid bad homage to the man that conquered him, even though you really have to suspend disbelief in order to accept Indurain's later tours, especially 94 and particularly 95. I wonder if he thinks it a mere aberration to finish OVER 4 minutes down on a rider who beat you by less than :10 seconds just 12 months previous. He might want to revisit his rhetorical question " I don't know how he does it... I could never do that". Makes you wonder don't it?

 

[Race Radio]

The idea that the PDM positives were hardly reported is just silly.

At this point we are talking past each other, I never said this. My point was that some in the sport were critical of PDM. Paul and Greg being the most obvious.

 

[Digger]

Lemond should just quit while he is ahead. He has done much to resurrect himself over the last few years but this is just silliness. It has been proffered that he was "addicted" to doping before he suddenly emerged on the scene. First Froome now Ulrich ... when both are questionable.

I love Greg, but there has always been a certain naivete to his enunciations. Moreover, I find it quite telling that he has never once paid bad homage to the man that conquered him, even though you really have to suspend disbelief in order to accept Indurain's later tours, especially 94 and particularly 95. I wonder if he thinks it a mere aberration to finish OVER 4 minutes down on a rider who beat you by less than :10 seconds just 12 months previous. He might want to revisit his rhetorical question " I don't know how he does it... I could never do that". Makes you wonder don't it?

This...whilst he denounces some dopers, he never says a bad word about others. And was willing to ride in the back seat of a car with Indurain last summer in Paris.
Then we have Greg's recollection of the phone call with Floyd...something which Floyd vociferously contradicted and still does.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

At this point we are talking past each other, I never said this. My point was that some in the sport were critical of PDM. Paul and Greg being the most obvious.

Well, being a bit late to the party here but in my Dutch archives, which are pretty amazing, Greg and PDM had a contract dispute, financially that is. Greg wanted the same amount of money for 1989 as he got for 1988 - when he was still recovering from the gunshot wounds - and PDM said no to that, probably because of the 1988 successes with the Dutch doping twins Rooks and Theunisse...

I know of the article where Gregs' attorney/lawyer states the PDM doping stuff, strangely enough that never got to the Dutch press. And please, do not underestimate the Dutch 'press' on that, I guess you do know de Telegraaf Race?

On the other hand I have enough other Dutch sources - and if one has an IQ above 120 [in Dutch that is] one can very fast deduct who the actual source was - state how much Greg 'liked' the overall being at PDM.

Franklin isnt telling porkies here.

That shirt didnt fit Greg to begin with, bleh.

 

[D-Queued]

Ullrich was born in december 1973.

In summer 1988 he was therefore 14 and 1/2 years old. What age category did he win? 14-15?

By early 1993, when he was 19, EPO had already provided us with 2 TdF (1991-92) victories and 3 Giri d'Italia (90-91-92).
So EPO was definitely available when Ullrich reached 19.

Now, no matter how terrible I think the situation was in the GDR, i have a hard time believing that they were doping 14 y.old cyclists for national competitions, it would make no sense whatsoever.

Wikipedia is your friend.

You don't need to argue with me, you can simply reconfirm there.

Here, let me help:

"Ullrich won his first bicycle race at 11. He was educated in the sports training system of the German Democratic Republic attending the KJS sports school in Berlin in 1986. In 1988, he was champion of the German Democratic Republic. The school closed two years after the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989. ..."

(btw - you appear to have a very naive view of the Stasi doping program)

Dave.

 

[thehog]

Wikipedia is your friend.

You don't need to argue with me, you can simply reconfirm there.

Here, let me help:

"Ullrich won his first bicycle race at 11. He was educated in the sports training system of the German Democratic Republic attending the KJS sports school in Berlin in 1986. In 1988, he was champion of the German Democratic Republic. The school closed two years after the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989. ..."

(btw - you appear to have a very naive view of the Stasi doping program)

Dave.

True.

His brother was a mean 800m runner. Went to world juniors. Talent ran through that family.

Stefan became the mechanic at T-Mobile.

Mamma Ullrich loved her boys. Sport saved them from an violent alcoholic father.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadSHPHI_O4&sns=em

Think Stefan owns a bike shop now. Industrious those Ullrich's.

 

[Le breton]

Wikipedia is your friend.

You don't need to argue with me, you can simply reconfirm there.

Here, let me help:

"Ullrich won his first bicycle race at 11. He was educated in the sports training system of the German Democratic Republic attending the KJS sports school in Berlin in 1986. In 1988, he was champion of the German Democratic Republic. The school closed two years after the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989. ..."

(btw - you appear to have a very naive view of the Stasi doping program)

Dave.

I was not trying to argue, just putting things in perspective.

Right now you seem to be a little confused about the Stasi's role in the GDR

To draw analogies, do you think that the neo-KGB dopes Putin or that the NSA/CIA had a hand in L.A. doping program?

 

[D-Queued]

I was not trying to argue, just putting things in perspective.

Right now you seem to be a little confused about the Stasi's role in the GDR

To draw analogies, do you think that the neo-KGB dopes Putin or that the NSA/CIA had a hand in L.A. doping program?

I dunno what the KGB does, but lots of people know what the Stasi did.

Anyhow, this is what Wikipedia has to say:

"the evidence was there that the Stasi, the GDR state secret police, supervised systematic doping of East German athletes from 1971 until reunification in 1990. ..."

I thought this was common knowledge.

Dave.

 

[Digger]

Of course the other option is that Greg is telling people what they want to hear in the country he was in. Ullrich and also did it with froome last year...
In an interview with Kimmage lauded Kelly but said he didn't like Roche due to doping.
Make sense of that one.

 

[stutue]

This...whilst he denounces some dopers, he never says a bad word about others. And was willing to ride in the back seat of a car with Indurain last summer in Paris.
Then we have Greg's recollection of the phone call with Floyd...something which Floyd vociferously contradicted and still does.

Just because Floyd told the truth (eventually) about something does not mean he tells the truth about everything. Floyd gets an easy time from people, but in reality he is just as much of a self-serving scumbag as the rest of them. As it stands he looks like he has a chance of winning X million dollars of doping money because he was a doper.

Good sense of humour though.

Back to Greg and the infamous car journey with Big Mig. I guess the difference is Miguel didn't try and destroy people off the bike.

 

[andy1234]

I was not trying to argue, just putting things in perspective.

Right now you seem to be a little confused about the Stasi's role in the GDR

To draw analogies, do you think that the neo-KGB dopes Putin or that the NSA/CIA had a hand in L.A. doping program?

No, he isn't confused.
The Stasi were instrumental in a doping programme, administering growth hormone, steroids, stimulants etc, to children and adults on state sports programmes.
Often without any knowledge or consent.
The Stasi monitored individuals on the programme closely, ensuring their compliance.

There is a documentary on this, called State Plan 14:25, that makes for uncomfortable viewing.

 

[Le breton]

I dunno what the KGB does, but lots of people know what the Stasi did.

Anyhow, this is what Wikipedia has to say:

"the evidence was there that the Stasi, the GDR state secret police, supervised systematic doping of East German athletes from 1971 until reunification in 1990. ..."

I thought this was common knowledge.

Dave.

Supervise. Does not that mean in this particular case make sure that people who compete on international events will not test positive and give a bad image of the country?

No i was not aware of this but it does not surprsise me.

Now, if you have proof that the Stasi was prescribing drugs for 14 y. old cyclist competing nationally I'll be very surprised.

 

[andy1234]

Supervise. Does not that mean in this particular case make sure that people who compete on international events will not test positive and give a bad image of the country?

No i was not aware of this but it does not surprsise me.

Now, if you have proof that the Stasi was prescribing drugs for 14 y. old cyclist competing nationally I'll be very surprised.

The Stasi monitored the whole programme, including the testing of new drugs, their effects, athletes response etc.

If an athlete was competing at a national level, they almost certainly became a part of this programme, and yes 14 year olds too.

Be surprised....

http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/8102

"At Hoeppner's right-hand was Dr Lothar Kipke, member of the medical commission of FINA. In that capacity he bangs the anti-dping drum but back home he is one of the worst offenders in the sporting crime of the century. A former member of the Nazi party, Kipke was described in a German court in Berlin in 2000 as "the Joseph Mengele of GDR sport". He will also be damned by Hoeppner's hand. "In preparation for team travel to the US, Dr Kipke forced ... athletes to be given testosterone injections. Dr Kipke is brutal in giving the injections. He doesn't consider any pain it causes to the athlete and almost rams the shringe into the body." - Hoeppner's notes to his Stasi liaison officer.

Hoeppner and Kipke sat at the helm of a covert network that coerced and corrupted doctors, coaches, scientists, chemists and swimmers, among others athletes. He keeps a tight ship: beyond issuing "supporting means guidelines" with specific instructions on dosages, he orders abortions: "Should a pregnancy occur while anabolic steroids are being taken then it is recommended in all cases that an abortion is carried out." Children born to athletes who had taken steroids are to be delivered in a Stasi clinic so that "a decision could be taken as to what to do" in the event of "complications".

 

[Le breton]

The Stasi monitored the whole programme, including the testing of new drugs, their effects, athletes response etc.

If an athlete was competing at a national level, they almost certainly became a part of this programme, and yes 14 year olds too.

Be surprised....

http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/8102

"At Hoeppner's right-hand was Dr Lothar Kipke, member of the medical commission of FINA. In that capacity he bangs the anti-dping drum but back home he is one of the worst offenders in the sporting crime of the century. A former member of the Nazi party, Kipke was described in a German court in Berlin in 2000 as "the Joseph Mengele of GDR sport". He will also be damned by Hoeppner's hand. "In preparation for team travel to the US, Dr Kipke forced ... athletes to be given testosterone injections. Dr Kipke is brutal in giving the injections. He doesn't consider any pain it causes to the athlete and almost rams the shringe into the body." - Hoeppner's notes to his Stasi liaison officer.

Hoeppner and Kipke sat at the helm of a covert network that coerced and corrupted doctors, coaches, scientists, chemists and swimmers, among others athletes. He keeps a tight ship: beyond issuing "supporting means guidelines" with specific instructions on dosages, he orders abortions: "Should a pregnancy occur while anabolic steroids are being taken then it is recommended in all cases that an abortion is carried out." Children born to athletes who had taken steroids are to be delivered in a Stasi clinic so that "a decision could be taken as to what to do" in the event of "complications".

Would you also have evidence outside or swimming and gymnastics?

OOPS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN outside OF swimming and gymnastics?
Well, yes, I'm surprised by the DEPTH of Stasi's involvement. That's not just supervision!!!