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Liège-Bastogne-Liège 2023, one day monument, April 23 (men's)

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I think it is likely your bias. ;-)

I am not arguing that LBL is more important. But arguments can certainly be made…

LBL has the most history.

LBL is where GTs meet the monuments in the types of riders that compete for the win (Hinault who never won RVV)

When I was growing up in Belgium in the 70s, I do not remember RVV being more important. In fact, perhaps the opposite…

But that is likely my own bias. ;-)
Interesting perspective, thanks. Clearly today both are special races, but since specialization set in 30 years ago, it's difficult that a GT candidate risks the cobbled classics. So we don't have riders competing in the same classics. Yet Flanders-Roubaix combo arguably has the greatest appeal. Now Hinault, had he been Belgian, I have no doubt he would have won Flanders, but being French back then Roubaix was an absolute must!
 
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History and interest I guess. I think most would agree that RvV or Paris Roubaix are the biggest one day races in the world. Plus unless I'm mistaken it's rarer for a gc guy to win RvV than liege?
Liege has equally rich history as Ronde, maybe even richer, cause it's an older race. These days, I admit, Ronde provides more exciting racing, but that was not always the case. In 2000's for example, Liege was more exciting and had stronger field.
 
Was he? I never understand his role. He’s always the last person in front of Remco, and I always have the feeling he puts the least amount of time in being actually in the front. But that’s maybe because his task is to accelerate the pace 1km before Remco wants to attack? So he basically goes all out and tries to suffocate the peloton for 1km and then Remco attacks.
And he is the one whos has to last the most with Remco. So he needs to survive the pace of all his teammates as well at the front. Many leaders yesterday could not last that long, imagine a domestique doing it. It takes a big effort.
 
Haven't seen it discussed much, but Remco's initial attack was hampered by slipping on a face painted on the pavement. I think if that hadn't happened the attack would have been much more effective from that spot than than the second effort which came very close to the top.
He still did the Redoute in the same time as in the recon (3th overall). Which is really strong after 200km+. Says something about Van Wilder's pace untill he launched. I also think he could've gone solo from where he wanted to attack.
 
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With people talking about Pog being the only one who could possible keep up with a Remco attack. It was one attack which was all that was needed to win this race, against the competition that was left. If Pog had still been in this race, he would have attacked multiple times on the hills. The question would be, could Remco have kept up with those multiple attacks that Pog could have done? I'm not so sure, but he may have got some time back on the flat parts.
No way, as Remco was just cruising. Had he had to dig really deep I don't think Pog could have dropped him.
 
Liege has equally rich history as Ronde, maybe even richer, cause it's an older race. These days, I admit, Ronde provides more exciting racing, but that was not always the case. In 2000's for example, Liege was more exciting and had stronger field.
I'm in agreement with you. (as a flemish dude) i find LBL to be more prestigious in name, RVV more fun/entertaining to watch.
I think it stems a bit from RVV being more specialized, focussed more by cobbled experts. Where LBL attracked GT winners which were deemed higher quality/broader opposition.

Things are changing because RVV parcour changed to favour climbers more than it did previously.
 
Just saw that Astana‘s Velasco finished the race in 19th rank!…

He was in the breakaway all day long, and finished 2:13mins down on Remco…

That‘s, IMHO, an absolutely great performance!… It was well-known that he‘s a strong rider, but this was extremely strong. Maybe one of his greatest races ever… :)
 
No chance Pog drops Remco yesterday.

Pog could onyl beat Healy by 30 seconds.

What probably would have happened is Pog launches from a few climbs before Redoutte. Remco stays with him and buries him on Redoutte or the false flat after
Or it could be Remco launches from Redoutte, Pog follows, Remco tries on Forges and that climb before, Pog follows, and than Pog buries him on Roche and winning solo.
The truth is we don't know, and we can't make assumptions based on Ben Healy, cause Amstel and Liege certainly aren't the same races. One is much harder than the other. Ben Healy's form also isn't the same in every race. Had Pogacar dropped Healy on La Redoutte, I don't think the gap till the end would be 30-40 sec like in Amstel, cause the terrain at Liege suits Pogacar more.
I could even say that Healy was much worse in Liege, cause he finished behind Pidcock whom he beat comfortably at Amstel, but that would be pure speculation.
 
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I tend to agree, given Remco's actual performance, but as is said: "de mortuis nil nisi bonum".
It is actually easier to relax and go into TT mode when you know your chief rival is out. You can max effort, stay loose and do your best not to crash while any remaining chasers yo-yo in futile attempts to escape the peloton. You only need to be faster than the best 2 chasers in that situation and the survivors weren't collaborating to any efficient level. None of them were going to accomplish a bridge solo, either.
 
It is actually easier to relax and go into TT mode when you know your chief rival is out. You can max effort, stay loose and do your best not to crash while any remaining chasers yo-yo in futile attempts to escape the peloton. You only need to be faster than the best 2 chasers in that situation and the survivors weren't collaborating to any efficient level. None of them were going to accomplish a bridge solo, either.
We shall never know, at least this much is certain.
 
I'm in agreement with you. (as a flemish dude) i find LBL to be more prestigious in name, RVV more fun/entertaining to watch.
I think it stems a bit from RVV being more specialized, focussed more by cobbled experts. Where LBL attracked GT winners which were deemed higher quality/broader opposition.

Things are changing because RVV parcour changed to favour climbers more than it did previously.
A fundamental difference between RVV and LBL as a race, a prestigious event, etc, is that Liege is a straightforward out-and-back, whereas de Ronde goes back and forth over the same roads. So the crowd on the Muur gets (drunker and) louder with each passage, and the atmosphere builds and builds.

There’s only one passage of La Redoute/Roche aux Faucons. Blink and you missed them.

The former definitely lends itself to the spectacle. Liege is the more traditional-style athletic contest.
 
Had Pogacar been there I belive Remco would open a race bit earlier, probably on the climb where his wheel slipped. He would try to make Pogacar work as much as possible outside of the climbs, cause that drains him out, and Remco is superior there, and then trying to crack him on the tempo. Would that succeed, I don't know. My guess is, if he doesn't crack him until Roche, than it's game over, Pogacar wins.
 
Everyone keeps saying Remco would have had to drop Pog on one of the famous climbs.

No. No. That is not how Remco works.

Only way Remco drops Pog is right AFTER a climb on a false flat. Kind of like what he did to Pidcock eventually. I am not saying he would succeed. I am saying THAT would be his best (only?) chance. He is hardly going to gap Pog on a stiff climb. It is after when he might take his aero advantage so as not to let Pog get back on.

Forget the actual climbs.

From Velonews:

Evenepoel punched the accelerator on the false flat to drop Pidcock and steamroll to victory.

“Remco was like a motorbike,” Pidcock said.
 
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Everyone keeps saying Remco would have had to drop Pog on one of the famous climbs.

No. No. That is not how Remco works.

Only way Remco drops Pog is right AFTER a climb on a false flat. Kind of like what he did to Pidcock eventually. I am not saying he would succeed. I am saying THAT would be his best (only?) chance. He is hardly going to gap Pog on a stiff climb. It is after when he might take his aero advantage so as not to let Pog get back on.

Forget the actual climbs.
You also need to forget what either of these riders would normally do. It was clear the way many riders rode the climbs that they were too slick to apply max power and the 30km run-in to the finish was wet and curvy enough that flat-out pursuiting would be difficult. I would imagine that Remco's wattage output wasn't super high in many places in the last 40km just trying to stay upright. That said; I'd agree with Red R's conclusion. They would have kept a manageable gap and sprinted. That's assuming neither of them didn't slide out on a corner....
 
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Given that Pidcock could follow the initial acceleration I think fairly normal to assume Pogacar wouldn't have been dropped there.

My guess it's simply very likely like Ronde 2020 where they get away, nobody is close and they take turns at 60% and it goes to a sprint.
Pidcock did not follow the initial accelleration, you weren't paying careful attention. He temporarily got back on on the descent. And Remco's wheel slipped when he wanted to go initially, forcing him to abort his first attempt, which changed the whole dynamic. Had he been able to go when he wanted to, it's unlikely Pidcock would have ever gotten back, however fleetingly.
 
A fundamental difference between RVV and LBL as a race, a prestigious event, etc, is that Liege is a straightforward out-and-back, whereas de Ronde goes back and forth over the same roads. So the crowd on the Muur gets (drunker and) louder with each passage, and the atmosphere builds and builds.

There’s only one passage of La Redoute/Roche aux Faucons. Blink and you missed them.

The former definitely lends itself to the spectacle. Liege is the more traditional-style athletic contest.

Not that drunk then, since they're no longer doing the Muur ;-)
 
Well, there is a tavern on top of the Muur ('t Hemelrijck) so I guess there are lots of people getting drunk on the Muur even without any race passing by.

It's closed today though so chances are quite small to find drunk people on the Muur right this moment.
There are drunk fans on this forum right now. They are dedicated to expressing their opinions and Belgian Ale, Italian wine, American Bourbon; they all contribute to the sincere effort to explore every mystical detail of cycling.
It's like golf...but with bigger balls.
 

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