Malori against CIRC suggested night-time testing

[MarkvW]

Abusive proposals like this illustrate the need for a strong rider's union.

 

[mrhender]

Abusive proposals like this illustrate the need for a strong rider's union.

A union that tells it's members they must contribute to initiatives such as CIRC?

The strong rider's union is also included in the CIRC recommendations...

At some point anti-doping authorities (if they want to be taken seriously) has to signal a strong stance...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

At some point anti-doping authorities (if they want to be taken seriously) has to signal a strong stance...

A good start would be to re-think the whole process. Instead of cutting on human rights they should concentrate all their work to get the hardcore abusers. For now they test all kinds of cough medicines and come up with a 0.8% sucsess rate (catching dopers). Very poor results.

 

[mrhender]

A good start would be to re-think the whole process. Instead of cutting on human rights they should concentrate all their work to get the hardcore abusers. For now they test all kinds of cough medicines and come up with a 0.8% sucsess rate (catching dopers). Very poor results.

Riders lean toward secure methods..

Micro-dosing in a space of time they can't be caught is one of them...

If they would feel insecure about this method they would probably drop it and find others.
But it remains a hole in testing that needs attention (all though covered by WADA-code but not implemented...)

I agree that plenty other measures should be undertaken but in this thread it is night-testing being the issue...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Yes night testing... But would it really work better than the window of opportunity they have for the other 18 hrs of the day? Its highly doubtful. If ADAs would really get their act together, they would have improved their results already... night testing or not.

 

[mrhender]

Yes night testing... But would it really work better than the window of opportunity for the other 18 hrs of the day? Its highly doubtful. If ADAs would really get their act together, they would have improved their resuts... night testing or not.

I don't know if it would work better..

Anti-doping is about perception... Plenty of studies shows this..

So if the general perception is that it is safe to micro-dose at night then riders will do so...

If that notion then is overturned by new practices then a portion of those doing it would stop...

In the greater picture it doesn't count for much, but that is what we are limited to in this thread...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

In the greater picture it doesn't count for much, but that is what we are limited to in this thread...

OK, then its all said and done. Some like 24-hr surveillance*, others like me dont.

* But dont worry, western countries are on a "good" way to do this to everybody. So why not let cycling be a test balloon of how far human rights can be cut further... Mad world.

 

[King Boonen]

The riders have already agreed to this, all CIRC has done is recommend the UCI actually use it. If they don't like it they can always quit.

 

[mrhender]

OK, then its all said and done. Some like 24-hr surveillance*, others like me dont.

* But dont worry, western countries are on a "good" way to do this to everybody. So why not let cycling be a test balloon of how far human rights can be cut further... Mad world.

What some "like" often faces the reality of what is necessary to prevent wrongdoings.. If we need to change rider's perception that they can micro-dose safely at night then I'am all for it...

That said I don't celebrate intrusion to what should be privacy.

But when privacy is abused to stomp other peoples rights (to equal competetion) and the peleton refused the opportunity to influence CIRC recommendations then they have brought this(hypothetical situation) on themeselves..

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Whining? Whining? They are standing up for their rights. What's next ? Video surveillance in their hotel rooms? A WADA chaperone following them around 24/7, 365 days a year? FFS. Enough is ENOUGH and too far is TOO FAR.

Ever seen Japanese Kierin racing?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Abusive proposals like this illustrate the need for a strong rider's union.

+1

You are right

 

[Jagartrott]

They could for example survey the entire top-10 in GC the same night, so that nobody gets an unfair disadvantage over their rivals. The latter part of the sentence can be read in more than one way.

 

[red_flanders]

I just can't get behind waking guys up in the middle of the night to get stabbed by a needle or pee in a cup. My desire to see clean sport does not trump a rider's need for sleep and privacy in that short window. It's too much, too invasive.

As for the "they can just get another job" argument, well that's been made about every gain in workers rights in history. It's just not right to subject people to midnight raids. Just find and enforce the existing rules with a (truly) independent body. That will get us where we need to be without such an absurd invasion of privacy.

 

[bewildered]

If the report highlights that the testing is being subverted because of micro-dosing then the window must be made narrower at the very least but not necessarily closed completely. It's completely negligent for them not to do this.

If i were a clean rider i wouldn't mind missing some sleep and not being 100% the next day, that's far less of a disadvantage than my rival having taken epo the night before we race. Remember dopers back in the epo heyday were prepared to get up in the middle of the night to stop blood clotting. They'll do anything to get an advantage.

It's obvious that the old-school dopers and long-standing team doctors/doping experts are having a serious influence on this practice and on Omerta continuing. I would imagine that a lack of faith in the fairness and impartiality or non-corruptness of the UCI is a major factor also.

While the window issue can be fixed relatively quickly and easily, the UCI needs to act so that riders can place trust in it again. I have no faith in the current administration in this regard. They should be getting rid of the likes of Vino and Riis and the older doctors and being seen to be doing something to help break Omerta. They should be closing off the other loophole where one team can abuse corticosteroids and gain an advantage over everyone else. The one that the journalists won't talk about.

So I don't sympathise in one way with the riders but I do in another. Closing the window is more 'being seen to be doing the right thing', closing the window, getting rid of the enablers and doctors and dealing with the corticosteroid abuse team/issue would be actually doing the right thing.

The lack of current riders speaking to CIRC should say to the UCI that there are either A) very few clean riders in the peleton OR B) there are very few clean riders in the peleton who do not feel pressure not to speak up. And I can't see how they can even tell which is the case from this report.

The report highlights that Omerta is still rife and that is one constant in the whole history of the report. That is what needs to be dealt with.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

I just can't get behind waking guys up in the middle of the night to get stabbed by a needle or pee in a cup. My desire to see clean sport does not trump a rider's need for sleep and privacy in that short window. It's too much, too invasive.

As for the "they can just get another job" argument, well that's been made about every gain in workers rights in history. It's just not right to subject people to midnight raids. Just find and enforce the existing rules with a (truly) independent body. That will get us where we need to be without such an absurd invasion of privacy.

Good to read your opinion. I had a discussion on twitter about this with 2 ladies and I was starting to think it's a female thing to feel it's just not "right" and too invasive

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re:

I agree with Malori. In cycling recovery is vital and sleep = recovery. Wtf can you imagine if a rider had an off-day and lost the race after being woken at 3AM the night before?

this. it's beyond ridiculous to even suggest this. imagine this being applied to normal citizens

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Re: Re:

I just can't get behind waking guys up in the middle of the night to get stabbed by a needle or pee in a cup. My desire to see clean sport does not trump a rider's need for sleep and privacy in that short window. It's too much, too invasive.

As for the "they can just get another job" argument, well that's been made about every gain in workers rights in history. It's just not right to subject people to midnight raids. Just find and enforce the existing rules with a (truly) independent body. That will get us where we need to be without such an absurd invasion of privacy.

Good to read your opinion. I had a discussion on twitter about this with 2 ladies and I was starting to think it's a female thing to feel it's just not "right" and too invasive

Nah. I can't see how anyone who doesn't have an unhealthy obsession with anti-doping would be in favor. Unless they have a hard-on for "authority"

It's inhumane no matter which way you slice it.

 

[mrhender]

I undertstand and appreciate the concerns for rights.
However this is the reality that needs be addressed somehow:

CIRC report p. 58

Consequently, despite improvements to the science underlying the ABP, it is still possible
for riders to micro-dose using EPO without getting caught. The Commission also heard
that riders are confident that they can take a micro-dose of EPO in the evening because it
will not show up by the time the doping control officers (“DCO” or “DCOs”) could arrive
to test at 6am. One top rider noted that riders take more risks when they are at home
because they know they will be tested at competitions if they make the top 5.

CIRC report p. 68

For example, riders know that they should micro-dose in the evening
and that they will then be fine if tested in the morning. For this reason riders no longer
have the same fear of out-of-competition testing.

CIRC report p. 88

As one person told the CIRC, “There is no room for ethics in sport”.

So clearly riders are abusing their rights to cheat not only the system but also their colleagues riding clean.
It is not the CIRC commission that are jeopordising those rights it is the dopers themselves..

If there is no room for ethics in the sport then the answer should be clear :no more loopholes where riders can hide behind rights...

I'am not saying that testers should perform nightly testing everyday, only that they need to end the perception that it is safe to micro-dose in the evening. That may include a new carefully devised night testing program which of course will be uncomfortable for the riders. But in the end they have brought this upon themselves..

 

[mrhender]

http://www.cyclingquotes.com/news/dumoulin_supports_night-time_doping_controls/

„If that means I will have bigger chance of taking the first place instead of third, it's worth it,” the Giant-Alpecin rider told AD.

„It's a tough ask and something which wouldn't make me or my girlfriend happy, but if it's going to make a life even harder for dopers, than it's a right thing to do.”

Tom Dumoulin

 

[LaFlorecita]

You know what would also make life harder for dopers, injecting a chip into each rider's bloodstream which will then give anti-doping authorities realtime information or having a WADA chaperone follow them around 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, even when they take a ***

 

[mrhender]

Sure, but that is not what is being proposed here....

Also remember who caused this absurd situation.. It was the dopers...

They are ignoring/nullifying their clean colleagues RIGHT to fair competetion....

Rights are good but when they are being abused thus stomping other riders rights -we should just ignore?

Ideally testing would get better so that micro-dosing could be detectable from an evening/morning test..
But that is not the case yet..

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re:

Sure, but that is not what is being proposed here....

Also remember who caused this absurd situation.. It was the dopers...

They are ignoring/nullifying their clean colleagues RIGHT to fair competetion....

Rights are good but when they are being abused thus stomping other riders rights -we should just ignore?

Ideally testing would get better so that micro-dosing could be detectable from an evening/morning test..
But that is not the case yet..

yes so have former dopers do night testing but not guys that have never been convicted of anything

 

[Arrowfarm]

Re:

They are ignoring/nullifying their clean colleagues RIGHT to fair competetion....

The clean colleagues... the mythical riders noone has seen for decades...

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Re:

Sure, but that is not what is being proposed here....

Also remember who caused this absurd situation.. It was the dopers...

They are ignoring/nullifying their clean colleagues RIGHT to fair competetion....

Rights are good but when they are being abused thus stomping other riders rights -we should just ignore?

Ideally testing would get better so that micro-dosing could be detectable from an evening/morning test..
But that is not the case yet..

LOL @ "rights are good, BUT"

Those who are in favor of an anti-doping witch hunt (which is completely absent in any other sport, BTW) should do so without trampling on basic human needs, such as the need to sleep. If it takes longer than you want then so be it.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

yes so have former dopers do night testing but not guys that have never been convicted of anything

No, because night testing isn't supposed to be a punishment of the wicked, it's supposed to be a further deterrent to doping. If NT is only to be applied to a subset of riders, select those most likely to dope, which is not necessarily the group of convicted dopers.