Malori against CIRC suggested night-time testing

[Catwhoorg]

The idea is intelligence led, suspicion based night time testing.

You suspect Rider X of microdosing, maybe from a whispered word, or maybe from the biopassport, then and only then do you knock on the door at 2 or 3 am

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

LOL @ "rights are good, BUT"

Those who are in favor of an anti-doping witch hunt (which is completely absent in any other sport, BTW) should do so without trampling on basic human needs, such as the need to sleep. If it takes longer than you want then so be it.

Very good post. +1

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re: Re:

Sure, but that is not what is being proposed here....

Also remember who caused this absurd situation.. It was the dopers...

They are ignoring/nullifying their clean colleagues RIGHT to fair competetion....

Rights are good but when they are being abused thus stomping other riders rights -we should just ignore?

Ideally testing would get better so that micro-dosing could be detectable from an evening/morning test..
But that is not the case yet..

LOL @ "rights are good, BUT"

Those who are in favor of an anti-doping witch hunt (which is completely absent in any other sport, BTW) should do so without trampling on basic human needs, such as the need to sleep. If it takes longer than you want then so be it.

this post sums it up really well

 

[Catwhoorg]

Plenty of non-sports folk occasionally or even more often get placed on call and have to answer phone calls throughout the night.

(Medical and veterinary folks, network admins, on-call engineers, plumbers, glass repair ... you get the picture.)

Sports people having the occasional interrupted night is hardly a violating a human need, it should be just the price of competing at the top level. (and again its only suggested for intelligence led tests)

 

[Joelsim]

It can only be a good thing. Maybe target all those on the Padua list and Astana first as they deserve the most scrutiny. As soon as word gets round I'm sure it won't be as commonplace. Throw in Piti, Lulu and anyone who's eaten contaminated Chinese or steak too.

 

[nayr497]

If you are really tired from all that racing, waking up to pee in a cup shouldn't really keep you from getting right back to sleep.

No problem with this, how many times will one racer be woken up in a year? Maybe a few. No big deal. And, as long as positives keep on popping up, gotta keep on testing away.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Personally nayr497 it always takes me at least 45 minutes to fall asleep no matter how tired I am. Only if I have a huge jetlag and spent 15 hours on a plane through the night I can fall asleep within 15 minutes.

Riders are humans and something as basic as their sleep should not be compromised.

 

[Joelsim]

Like I said on VR, those doping will lose more sleep than the 10 minutes it takes to administer a quick blood test. A urine sample is a bit more complicated. Plus I don't suspect Porte will be pleased when they come to test Froome and they have to stop spooning.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

Sure, but that is not what is being proposed here....

Also remember who caused this absurd situation.. It was the dopers...

They are ignoring/nullifying their clean colleagues RIGHT to fair competetion....

Rights are good but when they are being abused thus stomping other riders rights -we should just ignore?

Ideally testing would get better so that micro-dosing could be detectable from an evening/morning test..
But that is not the case yet..

LOL @ "rights are good, BUT"

Those who are in favor of an anti-doping witch hunt (which is completely absent in any other sport, BTW) should do so without trampling on basic human needs, such as the need to sleep. If it takes longer than you want then so be it.

So let's just ignore the rights of those suffering from dopers trampling them........

What you are basically saying is that a dopers right to late night dopíng (followed by sleep) is more important than the the rights of the rest?

This is the suggestion from UCI:

• Encourage the CADF to order night-time testing where they believe it is necessary and proportionate.

Hardly a witch hunt?

The UCI is not going to encourage this to stomp on riders.. They will encourage it because some dopers evidently are confident they can microdose late in the evening thus does so..

This needs to end and the only measure to do something now is to change the perception that it is a safe doping-method.. That hardly requires a full genius crusade every night which is also not what anyone suggests..

 

[Joelsim]

Re: Re:

Sure, but that is not what is being proposed here....

Also remember who caused this absurd situation.. It was the dopers...

They are ignoring/nullifying their clean colleagues RIGHT to fair competetion....

Rights are good but when they are being abused thus stomping other riders rights -we should just ignore?

Ideally testing would get better so that micro-dosing could be detectable from an evening/morning test..
But that is not the case yet..

LOL @ "rights are good, BUT"

Those who are in favor of an anti-doping witch hunt (which is completely absent in any other sport, BTW) should do so without trampling on basic human needs, such as the need to sleep. If it takes longer than you want then so be it.

So let's just ignore the rights of those suffering from dopers trampling them........

What you are basically saying is that a dopers right to late night dopíng (followed by sleep) is more important than the the rights of the rest?

This is the suggestion from UCI:

• Encourage the CADF to order night-time testing where they believe it is necessary and proportionate.

Hardly a witch hunt?

The UCI is not going to encourage this to stomp on riders.. They will encourage it because some dopers evidently are confident they can microdose late in the evening thus does so..

This needs to end and the only measure to do something now is to change the perception that it is a safe doping-method.. That hardly requires a full genius crusade every night which is also not what anyone suggests..

Well said.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

So let's just ignore the rights of those suffering from dopers trampling them........

What you are basically saying is that a dopers right to late night dopíng (followed by sleep) is more important than the the rights of the rest?

This is the suggestion from UCI:

• Encourage the CADF to order night-time testing where they believe it is necessary and proportionate.

Hardly a witch hunt?

The UCI is not going to encourage this to stomp on riders.. They will encourage it because some dopers evidently are confident they can microdose late in the evening thus does so..

This needs to end and the only measure to do something now is to change the perception that it is a safe doping-method.. That hardly requires a full genius crusade every night which is also not what anyone suggests..

It is a witch hunt. What would you think if your employer woke you several times a month to see what you're up to.

 

[mrhender]

Re:

Plenty of non-sports folk occasionally or even more often get placed on call and have to answer phone calls throughout the night.

(Medical and veterinary folks, network admins, on-call engineers, plumbers, glass repair ... you get the picture.)

Sports people having the occasional interrupted night is hardly a violating a human need, it should be just the price of competing at the top level. (and again its only suggested for intelligence led tests)

As for perspective see this post above wich is spot-on...

Plenty of people suffer from this "trampling of basic human needs"....

Also please consider all those who work at night... Does the world accept their basic human need?

Except for maybe grocery stores, does the world keep open in the evening and avoid to call them to balance their right to sleep in the day?

It is an inconvenince you accomodate... So will the riders (who will probably experince it very seldom...)

 

[Joelsim]

Re: Re:

So let's just ignore the rights of those suffering from dopers trampling them........

What you are basically saying is that a dopers right to late night dopíng (followed by sleep) is more important than the the rights of the rest?

This is the suggestion from UCI:

• Encourage the CADF to order night-time testing where they believe it is necessary and proportionate.

Hardly a witch hunt?

The UCI is not going to encourage this to stomp on riders.. They will encourage it because some dopers evidently are confident they can microdose late in the evening thus does so..

This needs to end and the only measure to do something now is to change the perception that it is a safe doping-method.. That hardly requires a full genius crusade every night which is also not what anyone suggests..

It is a witch hunt. What would you think if your employer woke you several times a month to see what you're up to.

Calm Florry. I'm sure Michele will find a way round it for Bertie, he usually does.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

So let's just ignore the rights of those suffering from dopers trampling them........

What you are basically saying is that a dopers right to late night dopíng (followed by sleep) is more important than the the rights of the rest?

This is the suggestion from UCI:

• Encourage the CADF to order night-time testing where they believe it is necessary and proportionate.

Hardly a witch hunt?

The UCI is not going to encourage this to stomp on riders.. They will encourage it because some dopers evidently are confident they can microdose late in the evening thus does so..

This needs to end and the only measure to do something now is to change the perception that it is a safe doping-method.. That hardly requires a full genius crusade every night which is also not what anyone suggests..

It is a witch hunt. What would you think if your employer woke you several times a month to see what you're up to.

Not to make this about me..

But I can speak of experience when it comes to inconvenient phone calls etc....

I work night shifts and the world cetainly doesn't keep open for me in the evening so I can get my sleep in the day...

As for being woken up.. Plenty people have jobs in global bussiness where they must endure the hardships of taking phone calls in night tame...Sure it is annoying but they learn to live with it because it is necessary to keep things running smooth.. (see also Catwhoorgs post)

If my colleagues were stealing from me when i was sleeping. I'am sure I would embrace the hardships of being woken up once in a while to ensure the others wouldn't make a mockery of the work i do..

Surely it is absurd it has come to this...
But the CIRC report is clear -the problem needs to be addressed, and for know there is only one first step...

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

I agree with Malori. In cycling recovery is vital and sleep = recovery. Wtf can you imagine if a rider had an off-day and lost the race after being woken at 3AM the night before?

this. it's beyond ridiculous to even suggest this. imagine this being applied to normal citizens

Seriously?

I have to ask. This isn't a trolling question, right?

"Imagine this being applied to normal citizens"

Not sure how the law works where you live, but around here we don't have an amnesty on criminal investigations that allow all crimes to be perpetrated between the hours of 11 pm and 5 am.

The innocent citizens have rights too. Innocent citizens typically want to be protected from criminal activity.

Are you implying that there are no innocent cyclists? Or that even if there were, we don't have to do anything to protect their rights for a fair competition?

Honestly, do you think that should there be some sort of 11 pm alarm, bugle sound, or gun that signals the all clear for doping?

The 50% HCT rule allowed doping up to 50%. A curfew on anti doping activities allows doping.

It isn't any more complicated than that.

Dave.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Calm Florry. I'm sure Michele will find a way round it for Bertie, he usually does.

This is not about Contador this is about basic human rights.

 

[Joelsim]

Re: Re:

I agree with Malori. In cycling recovery is vital and sleep = recovery. Wtf can you imagine if a rider had an off-day and lost the race after being woken at 3AM the night before?

this. it's beyond ridiculous to even suggest this. imagine this being applied to normal citizens

Seriously?

I have to ask. This isn't a trolling question, right?

"Imagine this being applied to normal citizens"

Not sure how the law works where you live, but around here we don't have an amnesty on criminal investigations that allow all crimes to be perpetrated between the hours of 11 pm and 5 am.

The innocent citizens have rights too. Innocent citizens typically want to be protected from criminal activity.

Are you implying that there are no innocent cyclists? Or that even if there were, we don't have to do anything to protect their rights for a fair competition?

Honestly, do you think that should there be some sort of 11 pm alarm, bugle sound, or gun that signals the all clear for doping?

The 50% HCT rule allowed doping up to 50%. A curfew on anti doping activities allows doping.

It isn't any more complicated than that.

Dave.

Although cutting it down to out of competition and night-time microdosing only allows 3-5% is you believe the reports. So this could help cut it to less than that...another small price to pay that non-dopers will actually benefit from.

So, let's assume that Thibaut Pinot is a non-doper (I have no idea, but he would be lower down on my list). He gets woken up 3 times in 2015 at an inconvenient time, but he gets the chance to compete for a GT, his salary goes up etc.

Let's then assume that our friend Alejandro develops insomnia through being woken up 25 times and worrying about the testing the night before every race. He gets further away from the podium.

Job done.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Seriously?

I have to ask. This isn't a trolling question, right?

"Imagine this being applied to normal citizens"

Not sure how the law works where you live, but around here we don't have an amnesty on criminal investigations that allow all crimes to be perpetrated between the hours of 11 pm and 5 am.

The innocent citizens have rights too. Innocent citizens typically want to be protected from criminal activity.

Are you implying that there are no innocent cyclists? Or that even if there were, we don't have to do anything to protect their rights for a fair competition?

Honestly, do you think that should there be some sort of 11 pm alarm, bugle sound, or gun that signals the all clear for doping?

The 50% HCT rule allowed doping up to 50%. A curfew on anti doping activities allows doping.

It isn't any more complicated than that.

Dave.

I get the idea behind it as I'm sure everyone else does and I would love to see more effective testing but it should not trample basic human rights

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

Calm Florry. I'm sure Michele will find a way round it for Bertie, he usually does.

This is not about Contador this is about basic human rights.

Basic human rights?

This is a sport. You sign an agreement.

Innocent athletes (*if there are any), spectators, fans, sponsors, organizers, etc. all have the right to expect a fair competition.

While doping is idiotic, only a true idiot would dope in plain sight in the middle of the day in front of the anti-doping officials. Any doper with even Ricco's level of intelligence will dope behind closed doors, out-of-sight, when they are confident someone won't be watching.

Now it is true that in many jurisdictions the police do need to have 'cause' to enter a private residence, and that does support human rights against totalitarian authority. Now, if they do have cause, they can knock the door down.

As this anti-doping enforcement recommendation has been described by CIRC, and ALREADY IMPLEMENTED AND AGREED TO BY THE RIDERS, that is more or less what we are looking at here. They need to establish cause before politely knocking on the door. Notably, they cannot knock down the door.

Perhaps you would prefer 24-hour security cameras in every room so that we can be assured the doping cyclist is awake when the anti-doping officials knock on the door.

But, yes, let's screw the rule-abiding cyclists' rights while limiting dopers to a six hour doping window. Honestly, if you cannot get all your doping done before 5 am you shouldn't have the right to race.

Dave.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Calm Florry. I'm sure Michele will find a way round it for Bertie, he usually does.

This is not about Contador this is about basic human rights.

Basic human rights?

This is a sport. You sign an agreement.

Innocent athletes (*if there are any), spectators, fans, sponsors, organizers, etc. all have the right to expect a fair competition.

While doping is idiotic, only a true idiot would dope in plain sight in the middle of the day in front of the anti-doping officials. Any doper with even Ricco's level of intelligence will dope behind closed doors, out-of-sight, when they are confident someone won't be watching.

Now it is true that in many jurisdictions the police do need to have 'cause' to enter a private residence, and that does support human rights against totalitarian authority. Now, if they do have cause, they can knock the door down.

As this anti-doping enforcement recommendation has been described by CIRC, and ALREADY IMPLEMENTED AND AGREED TO BY THE RIDERS, that is more or less what we are looking at here. They need to establish cause before politely knocking on the door. Notably, they cannot knock down the door.

Perhaps you would prefer 24-hour security cameras in every room so that we can be assured the doping cyclist is awake when the anti-doping officials knock on the door.

But, yes, let's screw the rule-abiding cyclists' rights while limiting dopers to a six hour doping window. Honestly, if you cannot get all your doping done before 5 am you shouldn't have the right to race.

Dave.

Would you also like to see 24/7 camera surveillance in every room in their homes and hotel rooms and chips inserted into every rider's blood?

 

[Catwhoorg]

The nearest you could come under the list of UN defiend human rights is

Article 24.

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.


I think a few late night wake-ups for testing would not fall under this.


Plus as has been said, its ALREADY allowed under the license terms, the UCI is just planning on encouraging its use under limited circumstances.

 

[Joelsim]

Re: Re:

Would you also like to see 24/7 camera surveillance in every room in their homes and hotel rooms and chips inserted into every rider's blood?

Betancur has already got chips in his blood. And burgers.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Would you also like to see 24/7 camera surveillance in every room in their homes and hotel rooms and chips inserted into every rider's blood?

Betancur has already got chips in his blood. And burgers.

 

[Joelsim]

It will benefit the non-dopers. So they won't mind the inconvenience of the odd wake-up call.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

The nearest you could come under the list of UN defiend human rights is

Article 24.

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.


I think a few late night wake-ups for testing would not fall under this.


Plus as has been said, its ALREADY allowed under the license terms, the UCI is just planning on encouraging its use under limited circumstances.

If it's used only very rarely I could accept it - rarely I mean, 5 tests a year spread over the entire peloton. Only test those who are extremely suspicious. However I think it will be abused and many will get tested at least once a month.