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Marco Pantani?

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VeloFidelis said:
I am sorry, but I must respectfully disagree. Marco Pantani was a borderline paranoid schizophrenic and megalomaniac who addressed himself in the third person, and was renowned for his manic episodes. He more than likely never raced a single event in his professional career without the benefit of a "program", much less ever won anything through un-enhanced effort.

I met and spoke with him through an interpreter at the 2001 Giro. He was quite frankly a Whacko, and was tolerated by his peers with the classic mix of respect and disdain reserved for the brilliance of an idiot savant.

I have seen him climb Dolomite passes in the big chain ring. His achievements on the bike are a simple testament to what exceptional talent and a fully regimented program can attain. To hold him up as an example of athletic excellence is the ultimate double standard.

IMHO you just don't understand, it's all about passion. Van Gogh was a lunatic, Beethoven was manic depressive, Mozart probably have had bipolar disorder etc and etc... And so what ?!
At the end is all about passion ! For me Lance Armstrong is just a guy who won 7 TdF and that's all... and Marco ?! Marco was something special :eek:

Il Pirata non cè più...

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VeloFidelis said:
I am sorry, but I must respectfully disagree. Marco Pantani was a borderline paranoid schizophrenic and megalomaniac who addressed himself in the third person, and was renowned for his manic episodes. He more than likely never raced a single event in his professional career without the benefit of a "program", much less ever won anything through un-enhanced effort.

I met and spoke with him through an interpreter at the 2001 Giro. He was quite frankly a Whacko, and was tolerated by his peers with the classic mix of respect and disdain reserved for the brilliance of an idiot savant.

I have seen him climb Dolomite passes in the big chain ring. His achievements on the bike are a simple testament to what exceptional talent and a fully regimented program can attain. To hold him up as an example of athletic excellence is the ultimate double standard.

As great as Marco was to watch I have to agree.

What I found so interesting about Matt's book "The Death of Marco Pantani" was not the story of his life but that it was quite clear he was completely nuts. Not just a little nuts, Fing crazy.

Here is one of the many cars he crashed
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Zen Master said:
IMHO you just don't understand, it's all about passion. Van Gogh was a lunatic, Beethoven was manic depressive, Mozart probably have had bipolar disorder etc and etc... And so what ?!
At the end is all about passion ! For me Lance Armstrong is just a guy who won 7 TdF and that's all... and Marco ?! Marco was something special :eek:

image1.jpg

I appreciate your perspective on passion. After attending many Giro's d'Italia, and a Milan /San Remo or two, I am a somewhat acquainted with Italian cycling passion. I know it to be both strong and irrational, which is probably it's best definition.

I do not denigrate Pantani for his eccentricities, but for his false accomplishments. To compare his achievements to those of Van Gogh, Beethoven, or Mozart because they all shared a mental instability is pretty far off that mark. Their achievements stand as a testament to their talent in spite of their demons.

For Pantani, we will never know the level of his talent because it was obscured by his demons. Pantani was a troubled man whose downward spiral was fueled by the blind passion the tifosi threw at him, and his own confusion of self image about whether he deserved it or not.
 
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VeloFidelis said:
I have seen him climb Dolomite passes in the big chain ring. His achievements on the bike are a simple testament to what exceptional talent and a fully regimented program can attain. To hold him up as an example of athletic excellence is the ultimate double standard.

I have always wondered, and maybe it's beyond anyone to tell for sure, but 'how talented' were some of these guys (ie also Basso, Ullrich), off the program?

In other words, could the top 10 of each GT in the 90s be a reflection of the top 10 greatest responders, and/or greatest risk takers? (This is not to say that they were mere pumped up amateurs, or 'donkeys', but there is a difference between a decent/good top 50 pro rider and an amazing top 10 pro rider)

I don't have a clue about his junior years, ie was he being dropped by others who were supposedly clean? I mean he has been riding his bike for a while, and some of his peers must have noticed some small transformations, if he wasn't already 'the greatest climber' in his youngster years...
 
Marco Pantani is someone I feel very strongly about, but always kept my opinions to myself, simply because he is dead. So i'm glad there's a thread about him...How anyone can say he was the most gifted climber of his generation is just beyond me, when the guy built his achievements on a programme, from his very early Carrera days, which would've nearly made Bjarne Riis blush. His blood tests, regarding HCT, from the outset were shocking, and he was lucky to survive until he did (He had healthy problems directly as a result of EPO). And not alone that, but he came back and did the exact same after 1999. He blamed everyone else for this, that it was all a conspiracy, that he was being picked on, even that he did nothing wrong....I believe it wrong to make the guy out to be this wonderful cyclist, when we just don't know.
 
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VeloFidelis said:
I am sorry, but I must respectfully disagree. Marco Pantani was a borderline paranoid schizophrenic and megalomaniac who addressed himself in the third person, and was renowned for his manic episodes. He more than likely never raced a single event in his professional career without the benefit of a "program", much less ever won anything through un-enhanced effort.

Mr Armstrong clearly suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, so why is he held in esteem?

VeloFidelis said:
I met and spoke with him through an interpreter at the 2001 Giro. He was quite frankly a Whacko, and was tolerated by his peers with the classic mix of respect and disdain reserved for the brilliance of an idiot savant.

Sounds like someone else I have heard of...

VeloFidelis said:
I have seen him climb Dolomite passes in the big chain ring. His achievements on the bike are a simple testament to what exceptional talent and a fully regimented program can attain. To hold him up as an example of athletic excellence is the ultimate double standard.

Are you sure you didn't think this thread was about Lance?
 
Digger said:
Marco Pantani is someone I feel very strongly about, but always kept my opinions to myself, simply because he is dead. So i'm glad there's a thread about him...How anyone can say he was the most gifted climber of his generation is just beyond me, when the guy built his achievements on a programme, from his very early Carrera days, which would've nearly made Bjarne Riis blush. His blood tests, regarding HCT, from the outset were shocking, and he was lucky to survive until he did (He had healthy problems directly as a result of EPO). And not alone that, but he came back and did the exact same after 1999. He blamed everyone else for this, that it was all a conspiracy, that he was being picked on, even that he did nothing wrong....I believe it wrong to make the guy out to be this wonderful cyclist, when we just don't know.

One should remember that Il Falco had the same reading at the 1999 Giro but was rounded down to 49.9%.

He was wonderful to watch. Like Ben Johnson in Seoul 1988. It looked awesome even thou he was jacked. One must also remember that everyone and I mean everyone was jacked so high if not higher than Pantani back in the late 90's.
 
Thoughtforfood said:
Mr Armstrong clearly suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, so why is he held in esteem?

Are you sure you didn't think this thread was about Lance?

No, I don't think so. I'm obviously not as obsessed with Lance as you are Fanboy! I really can't see why you are trying so hard to wedge him into this thread. Surely there must be a thread about him somewhere on this Forum that you can find to post on.

By the way; what's your opinion of Pantani? You remember him... he raced against Lance!
 
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VeloFidelis said:
No, I don't think so. I'm obviously not as obsessed with Lance as you are Fanboy! I really can't see why you are trying so hard to wedge him into this thread. Surely there must be a thread about him somewhere on this Forum that you can find to post on.

By the way; what's your opinion of Pantani? You remember him... he raced against Lance!

No, I wedged YOUR inconsistent opinions about such issues as you raise about Mr Pantani into the thread. It had nothing to do with Lance. It had everything to do with your glaring hypocrisy.

As for Mr Pantani, I think he was a supremely talented cyclist with a very sad story.
 
thehog said:
One should remember that Il Falco had the same reading at the 1999 Giro but was rounded down to 49.9%.

He was wonderful to watch. Like Ben Johnson in Seoul 1988. It looked awesome even thou he was jacked. One must also remember that everyone and I mean everyone was jacked so high if not higher than Pantani back in the late 90's.

over 60% for most of his career. Not even most of the infamous Gewiss team were over 60...I think only Berzin and Ugrumov...60 is exceptionally high...
 
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VeloFidelis said:
No, I don't think so. I'm obviously not as obsessed with Lance as you are Fanboy! I really can't see why you are trying so hard to wedge him into this thread. Surely there must be a thread about him somewhere on this Forum that you can find to post on.

By the way; what's your opinion of Pantani? You remember him... he raced against Lance!
Burn! That one has got to hurt.
 
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Clemson Cycling said:
This guy was around a couple years before I began watching cycling. I was just wondering why there is still such a strong following with him? I have done some research on him and he seemed to be a big doper and really the poster boy of the era that cycling wanted to end. I never saw him race so I don't really understand why he is so likable.

Its almost unexplainable.. There are some people you come across in life, in person, or through sport, etc, that you are just drawn too.. Pantani had that..

wether it was attitude, or personality, or style on a bike, or what i dont know.. There was just something about the guy that drew you in and you couldnt help yourself. He had an aura..

I cant even explain why he is such a legend, but he is..

good article here> http://le-grimpeur.net/blog/archives/11

few snippets

"His exploits between 1994 and 2000 were sensational. He climbed like a man possessed, throwing races into chaos with his attacking style, and eschewing conservatism to attack on the most difficult of climbs with reckless aggression."

"For fans who love cycling, it is hard not to be inspired, even moved, by Pantani’s climbing exploits: the reckless attacks, the total domination of the toughest climbs. He personified the excitement of the mountains."

"Pantani’s dalliances with performance-enhancing drugs is likely not a unique case, as past and future revelations of doping in cycling in the 1990s will attest. His story, though, his tragedy seems unique: soaring to the highest levels of the sport, before crashing into despair, abandonment, and ultimately suicide. Did he make a Faustian pact, with Mephistopheles played by EPO, crooked doctors, and the pressure of professional competition? (Is Pantani the Dorian Gray of cycling?) Was the reward for his bargain the tremendous climbing power he attained, but at a heavy price?

But Pantani was seemingly conscious of his bargain and one of his reported quotes nicely sums up his own approach, as well as the issues raised earlier about performance enhancement. “In cycling,” he said, “there is not a culture of doping, but rather a culture of champions, meaning: self improvement. That means doing things that are forbidden, but that are only forbidden if they catch you.”"
 
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scribe said:
Burn! That one has got to hurt.

No, it wasn't even a wet match. Sorry.

Why live vicariously, throw out your own barbs.
 
Thoughtforfood said:
No, I wedged YOUR inconsistent opinions about such issues as you raise about Mr Pantani into the thread. It had nothing to do with Lance. It had everything to do with your glaring hypocrisy.

As for Mr Pantani, I think he was a supremely talented cyclist with a very sad story.

I would be delighted to see you expand beyond innuendo for once and actually articulate something coherent. Please expose my inconsistent opinion and glaring hypocrisy... if you can. And oh yeah, try to stay on the subject at hand. I'm pretty sure that your love of Lance is an extraneous factor here.
 
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VeloFidelis said:
I would be delighted to see you expand beyond innuendo for once and actually articulate something coherent. Please expose my inconsistent opinion and glaring hypocrisy... if you can. And oh yeah, try to stay on the subject at hand. I'm pretty sure that your love of Lance is an extraneous factor here.

Got Irony?


Anyway, you have defended Mr Armstrong and you know it. My point is that if you are unable to defend Mr Pantani in the same manner, you are a hypocrite.

Quick enough for ya?

(please feel free to contend that you have never defended Mr Armstrong in any way. I don't even have to dig up the quotes for anyone who has posted here for over a month to know that you are full of it if that is indeed your contention.)
 
Thoughtforfood said:
Got Irony?


Anyway, you have defended Mr Armstrong and you know it. My point is that if you are unable to defend Mr Pantani in the same manner, you are a hypocrite.

Quick enough for ya?

(please feel free to contend that you have never defended Mr Armstrong in any way. I don't even have to dig up the quotes for anyone who has posted here for over a month to know that you are full of it if that is indeed your contention.)

You get your one shot to stay on subject and you can't perform. I am disappointed but not surprised. Have you spoken with anyone professionally regarding your Armstrong fixation?

The rest of us here were speaking about Pantani. And I believe your mission had something to do with exposing, what was it again?... oh yeah inconsistency and hypocrisy. Tell you what... in my misguided sense of fairness, I'll give you another shot.

Please don't let us down.
 

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C'mon guys we can leave LA out of this. There are a couple of threads today that have desended in to the usual - I think that is a real shame and a blight on the forum.

VeloFidelis said:
.....For Pantani, we will never know the level of his talent because it was obscured by his demons. Pantani was a troubled man whose downward spiral was fueled by the blind passion the tifosi threw at him, and his own confusion of self image about whether he deserved it or not.
I think this is probably the best and most poignant quote of the thread.

For many of us who followed Pantani in his prime we were mesmorized by his attacking style and his climbing ability.
Of course we were ignorant to the real truth behind those performances. In fact it was not until well after his death before the scale of the abuse was highlighted.

It will always color his carreer.
 
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VeloFidelis said:
You get your one shot to stay on subject and you can't perform. I am disappointed but not surprised. Have you spoken with anyone professionally regarding your Armstrong fixation?

The rest of us here were speaking about Pantani. And I believe your mission had something to do with exposing, what was it again?... oh yeah inconsistency and hypocrisy. Tell you what... in my misguided sense of fairness, I'll give you another shot.

Please don't let us down.

Again, you have exposed your glaring hypocrisy all by your lonesome. All I did was highlight it. Sorry that got your panties all in a wad.

In other news, you keep bringing up Armstrong over and over. I keep bringing up you. Dang.
 
Thoughtforfood said:
Again, you have exposed your glaring hypocrisy all by your lonesome. All I did was highlight it. Sorry that got your panties all in a wad.
.

OOooohh Too bad! And we all had such high hopes. It seems that while you have spent time completely redefining the word obtuse, you have also contributed no substance what so ever to your claims, and again refused to stay on point. Thanks for trying though!
 
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VeloFidelis said:
OOooohh Too bad! And we all had such high hopes. It seems that while you have spent time completely redefining the word obtuse, you have also contributed no substance what so ever to your claims, and again refused to stay on point. Thanks for trying though!

You know what, when I am wrong, I am wrong. I went back and searched your posts and I cannot find one that defends Lance. You defend that doping is part of sport and that will never change, but you never once specifically defended Lance.

I apologize, I was wrong for suggesting you were a hypocrite on the subject.
 
Thoughtforfood said:
You know what, when I am wrong, I am wrong. I went back and searched your posts and I cannot find one that defends Lance. You defend that doping is part of sport and that will never change, but you never once specifically defended Lance.

I apologize, I was wrong for suggesting you were a hypocrite on the subject.

HOLY SH!T!!!

I apologize as well. We can all get a little juvenile around here some times, and I am as guilty as anyone.

Thank you!
 

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