Marco Pantani?

[coinneach]

comments like this make me very angry. pantani was fysically the greatest climber speciment we will probably ever see. he was already dropping pro riders on training as a junior. there's even video of him on youtube as a 19 year old murdering elite and pro riders in a race. those were the 80s, where he certainly wasn't doped in. if we would've never seen epo in the early 90s, than pantani would've dominated every mountain for nearly 15 years.

Sorry to disappoint you Rio, but Marco was indeed a product of a widespread DP. Read Matt Rendell "The death of marco pantani".

Juniors were given stuff to develop muscles right across the board.

I agree with you about his riding style & personality: Wiggins has none of the former, but quite a lot of the latter (for which many here despise him for!)

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Sorry to disappoint you Rio, but Marco was indeed a product of a widespread DP. Read Matt Rendell "The death of marco pantani".

Juniors were given stuff to develop muscles right across the board.

I agree with you about his riding style & personality: Wiggins has none of the former, but quite a lot of the latter (for which many here despise him for!)

I stopped reading right there. that book is the biggest pile of hoax. not taken serious anywhere outside of the anglophone world I guess.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I stopped reading right there. that book is the biggest pile of hoax. not taken serious anywhere outside of the anglophone world I guess.

That is a quite stupid remark.

Maybe Pantani was the next Bahamontes, the next Lucien van Impe, the next Fuente, the next Herrera or fill in who y want but he will always be tainted by what we know.

Still he was my favourite rider after LeMond was forced to retire, at least he knew what cycling was about.

Maybe he was the reincarnation of Fausto, just as tragic we might say.

 

[coinneach]

I stopped reading right there. that book is the biggest pile of hoax. not taken serious anywhere outside of the anglophone world I guess.

Disappointed in you Rio, I had hoped your mind was more open than that?

But any further discussion / evidence, I'd have to post in the Cli**c!

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Disappointed in you Rio, I had hoped your mind was more open than that?

But any further discussion / evidence, I'd have to post in the Cli**c!

there is no evidence pantnai doped.epo as a junior. absolutely zero

 

[Caruut]

I went to his home town recently in Cesenatico. It’s a sleepy beach town and a little naff. Think Blackpool in Italy but with much much better food (and women).

In each and every cafe, bar and restaurant was a photo of the man himself. Next to a picture of Jesus.

I was told the day he attacked Ullrich in the 98 Tour everyone ran from their shops, bars and homes to the beach where they had large screens erected. They crowd were shouting "Pantani, attacco, attacco!" in football like chants.

He is held up like a God. A good description of him is “quixotic”. The Times in London gave him this title and best describes the man.

Italians like mixed up people. Otherwise they wouldn't have voted for Berlusconi. As much as they want to take Berlusconi down they also admire him for using every single dodgy method to stay in power. It's the Italian way.

Like Maradona in Napoli. Most shops had two photos up; one of the Virgin Mary and one of El Diego. I think the tragic prodigy tale of his life is one that resonates with a lot of people. Personally it's not hard to see bits of myself in him.

 

[Race Radio]

there is no evidence pantnai doped.epo as a junior. absolutely zero

Have you ever read the death of Marco Pantani?

 

[coinneach]

there is no evidence pantnai doped.epo as a junior. absolutely zero

Correct, but there is hard evidence on a Farrara database in 1991 he was on Dianabol, a steriod...gave him those leg muscles.
EPO seems to have started 2/3/93.
Just 'cause I've given you the headline information, don't let that stop you reading the book!

 

[RHRH19861986]

Correct, but there is hard evidence on a Farrara database in 1991 he was on Dianabol, a steriod...gave him those leg muscles.
EPO seems to have started 2/3/93.
Just 'cause I've given you the headline information, don't let that stop you reading the book!

I don´t believe that, Dianabol is a steroid that makes no sense for an endurance athlete. Bodybuilders don´t even use it during their diet, but only during their mass period, because the body not only gains muscle, but also fat and water while on Dianabol.

Maybe Pantani took it several weeks in November or December, but during the season, it makes no sense.

 

[Alphabet]

I never saw him race live either, but thanks to CT and youtube, I've managed to see some of what he was capable of. And I think I understand why he was such a cult figure. As others have said, he brought some flair and spontaneity to the sport during an era where it was being dominated by measured, calculated efforts. I guess he was the Vinokourov of his time (or more accurately, Vino was the Pantani of the 2000s).

 

[hrotha]

Correct, but there is hard evidence on a Farrara database in 1991 he was on Dianabol, a steriod...gave him those leg muscles.
EPO seems to have started 2/3/93.
Just 'cause I've given you the headline information, don't let that stop you reading the book!

Steroids in 1991 is a far cry from EPO in 1989.

No one's saying Pantani was clean. We're arguing he was a real talent.

 

[Alphabet]

I think in a clean world Pantani would still have been there-or-thereabouts. He wasn't a donkey-to-racehorse a la Riis or Lance.

 

[RHRH19861986]

I guess he was the Vinokourov of his time (or more accurately, Vino was the Pantani of the 2000s).

Not so wrong, but there´s one huge difference between these two, Vino and Pantani: when Vino attacked, most people had to vomit, even more so after his 2007 Tour scandal.
When Pantani attacked, especially in the 90ies, it was pure goosebump feeling. Almost everyone loved this guy.

 

[coinneach]

I don´t believe that, Dianabol is a steroid that makes no sense for an endurance athlete. Bodybuilders don´t even use it during their diet, but only during their mass period, because the body not only gains muscle, but also fat and water while on Dianabol.

Maybe Pantani took it several weeks in November or December, but during the season, it makes no sense.

Correct: it was December 1991.

Do you believe it now, or are you just like so many on this forum who believe what they want to and ignore any evidence that may contradict their opinion?
Worse still, folk dismiss it without considering it or checking it.

Hothra: Steroids in 1991 is a far cry from EPO in 1989.

Building muscle mass as a youth makes far more sense than starting on epo. He was real spindly as a kid, IMO he wouldn't have been anything without steroids. I still can't help really liking him as a cyclist!!

Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
I stopped reading right there. that book is the biggest pile of hoax. not taken serious anywhere outside of the anglophone world I guess.

And Rio, the reason the book is dismissed in Italy is probably more to do with the grubby details of his later life: possible sexual identity issues etc (all of which can be consistent with steroid use as a youth)

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Correct, but there is hard evidence on a Farrara database in 1991 he was on Dianabol, a steriod...gave him those leg muscles.
EPO seems to have started 2/3/93.
Just 'cause I've given you the headline information, don't let that stop you reading the book!

the man was 172 x 57 kg. what leg muscle? also dianabol would be the most pointless steroid to use. also I'm talking about 80s pantani

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Correct: it was December 1991.

Do you believe it now, or are you just like so many on this forum who believe what they want to and ignore any evidence that may contradict their opinion?
Worse still, folk dismiss it without considering it or checking it.

Hothra: Steroids in 1991 is a far cry from EPO in 1989.

Building muscle mass as a youth makes far more sense than starting on epo. He was real spindly as a kid, IMO he wouldn't have been anything without steroids. I still can't help really liking him as a cyclist!!

Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
I stopped reading right there. that book is the biggest pile of hoax. not taken serious anywhere outside of the anglophone world I guess.

And Rio, the reason the book is dismissed in Italy is probably more to do with the grubby details of his later life: possible sexual identity issues etc (all of which can be consistent with steroid use as a youth)

matt rendell is a sensationalist journalist. but he steers far from the facts. sexual identity issues are a joke, if you know his life was destroyed by the unanswered love for a woman.

also his books about colombians, although entertaining read(definitely!), are often full of sensationalist bull**** but less damaging material written about riders.

few years ago he tried desperately to get some attention again by claiming he knew stuff about rujano and others doping. but he had nothing, just a scream for attention.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Not so wrong, but there´s one huge difference between these two, Vino and Pantani: when Vino attacked, most people had to vomit, even more so after his 2007 Tour scandal.
When Pantani attacked, especially in the 90ies, it was pure goosebump feeling. Almost everyone loved this guy.

Well, not really.
Pantani is arguably the best climber ever to have been on a bike. Vino is not.
Vino was a guy that was putting down the watts on the flats as well as in the hills, but body wise he was much more of a puncher type of guy than Pantani ever were.
I can agree that clinic material might have made him a better climber, but his attacks was never caused by the clinic material, it was just more effective because of clinic material.
And do not for a second make the mistake to belive that the Vino in 10, 11 and 12 and his palamares in those years had anything to do with the clinic. it had rather EVERYTHING to do with his heart and his mentality as this cycling generations most hardcore figher and his will of steel.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I agree 100% the comeback vino was definitely clean and showed how incredibly he was as a natural talent and he was almost as possible as pantani was outside of italy. whenever at races I saw vino getting cheered so much, also during his comeback except in belgium, where the fans are sad, drunk and pathetic anyway

 

[hrotha]

I agree 100% the comeback vino was definitely clean

That's a really stupid thing to say.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

That's a really stupid thing to say.

well, his tt lost alot of power after his suspension, he could not climb with the very very best anymore. His punch was still there , but then again he is on paper build to have that punch (and allways had it) so nothing extrodinary there, and finally his stamina that made him capable of his LBL and olympic gold has been evolving throughout his whole career

to put it simple, nothing of what he did could not have been done be squeaky clean McClean...

 

[Alphabet]

The Pantani-Vino comparison I made was more in line with their popularity/character than their abilities on the bike.

 

[Echoes]

I think in a clean world Pantani would still have been there-or-thereabouts. He wasn't a donkey-to-racehorse a la Riis or Lance.

This is a totally gratuitous assertion.

And in any case, there is no excuse for EPO/blood doping.

Having talent is not an extenuating circumstance. It's an AGGRAVATING one.

whenever at races I saw vino getting cheered so much, also during his comeback except in belgium, where the fans are sad, drunk and pathetic anyway

Yeah sure, hail to Vino. Vino for President. The guy deceived us, so we should cheer him because he f*cked us off so well. How masochistic is that ! The guy is a massive fraud and crook using all his relations to get back on track. And on top of that, he never admitted the evidence. May the Devil take him.

We booed Vino, already in the stage to Liège at the Vuelta 2009 (I was there) and I was proud of my country when I heard that (even though I didn't do it myself).

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

That's a really stupid thing to say.

there is absolutely zero indication he was doped. he was the most tested athlete in the past few seasons and they had nothing

 

[Parrulo]

this is the road racing section, if you want to talk about doping simply take it to the clinic

posts have been deleted

 

[Alphabet]

Now it looks like I was talking to myself