Does nobody get the joke that if Haribo gummy bears contain a gelatine that is on the prohibited list as a masking agent, it would make no sense whatsoever to wolfe down two hand fulls after the race as this would surely land him a positive. 
- Jul 25, 2012
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Re: Re:
I didn't reply to your comment on the NADO because it is irrelevant. It is the WADA list that matters, not what an NADO decides to list. Again, I will refer you to the actual list, with a link to the latest version, and ask you to highlight the part that you think is relevant:
https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf
With regard the bolded part, I can't believe I'm actually going to ask this. Are you suggesting modified gelatin (and they don't even note the modification...) is banned orally? Are you sure you want to suggest that.
Scatto said:
I didn't reply to your comment on the NADO because it is irrelevant. It is the WADA list that matters, not what an NADO decides to list. Again, I will refer you to the actual list, with a link to the latest version, and ask you to highlight the part that you think is relevant:
https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf
With regard the bolded part, I can't believe I'm actually going to ask this. Are you suggesting modified gelatin (and they don't even note the modification...) is banned orally? Are you sure you want to suggest that.
Re:
No I don't get it. Maybe I misunderstand you though. Nobody at any point suggested Haribo's contain anything prohibited. The suggestion was that riders/teams could be lacing gelatine sweets, or the gelatine in and of itself could be a masking agent. Both of which were bonkers ideas.
GJB123 said:Does nobody get the joke that if Haribo gummy bears contain a gelatine that is on the prohibited list as a masking agent, it would make no sense whatsoever to wolfe down two hand fulls after the race as this would surely land him a positive.
No I don't get it. Maybe I misunderstand you though. Nobody at any point suggested Haribo's contain anything prohibited. The suggestion was that riders/teams could be lacing gelatine sweets, or the gelatine in and of itself could be a masking agent. Both of which were bonkers ideas.
Re: Re:
Sorry Boonen I know you're not asking me, but if you don't mind, regarding the modified gelatin, it would be under this in the WADA list:
S5 DIURETICS AND MASKING AGENTS
The following diuretics and masking agents are
prohibited, as are other substances with a similar chemical
structure or similar biological effect(s).
Including, but not limited to:
• Desmopressin; probenecid; plasma expanders,
e.g. glycerol and intravenous administration of albumin,
dextran, hydroxyethyl starch and mannitol;
Hydroxyethyl starch plasma expanders are part of the Colloid family of plasma expanders, as is gelatin. The Dutch prohibited list has just legitimately added 'modified gelatin' as an e.g., for Colloid plasma expanders. I'm just googling out of curiousity, I'm not a medic.
King Boonen said:
Sorry Boonen I know you're not asking me, but if you don't mind, regarding the modified gelatin, it would be under this in the WADA list:
S5 DIURETICS AND MASKING AGENTS
The following diuretics and masking agents are
prohibited, as are other substances with a similar chemical
structure or similar biological effect(s).
Including, but not limited to:
• Desmopressin; probenecid; plasma expanders,
e.g. glycerol and intravenous administration of albumin,
dextran, hydroxyethyl starch and mannitol;
Hydroxyethyl starch plasma expanders are part of the Colloid family of plasma expanders, as is gelatin. The Dutch prohibited list has just legitimately added 'modified gelatin' as an e.g., for Colloid plasma expanders. I'm just googling out of curiousity, I'm not a medic.
- Jul 25, 2012
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That's fine, you are correct and that's exactly the part I wanted Scatto to find. You've even bolded the extremely relevant part to this discussion which is what myself, and Catwhoorg have been driving at and which Scatto said he didn't think applied. It must be intravenously administrated to be doping.
To get back to the reason this started. A Dutch language link was used to claim that it is a named substance on the WADA list. It isn't, it is a similar substance to those named used in the same way. The Dutch language link was also, I believe, used to obfuscate the fact that it is only doping when used IV. This seemed to work on Scatto as they said that that based on that link they thought that the IV adminstration route did not apply to modified gelatin. The fact that the word gelatin appeared on the Dutch link was being used to add weight to the ridiculous idea that Haribo (or fake Haribo) are being used as a masking agent. If the actual, English language WADA prohibited list had been used this would have been shown to be rubbish.
This problem has cropped up before in the clinic. People twist a foreign language link or use snippets to try and reinforce a point that the link does not reinforce. It's particularly obvious in this case as the WADA list is freely available to anyone and everyone.
Dan2016 said:
That's fine, you are correct and that's exactly the part I wanted Scatto to find. You've even bolded the extremely relevant part to this discussion which is what myself, and Catwhoorg have been driving at and which Scatto said he didn't think applied. It must be intravenously administrated to be doping.
To get back to the reason this started. A Dutch language link was used to claim that it is a named substance on the WADA list. It isn't, it is a similar substance to those named used in the same way. The Dutch language link was also, I believe, used to obfuscate the fact that it is only doping when used IV. This seemed to work on Scatto as they said that that based on that link they thought that the IV adminstration route did not apply to modified gelatin. The fact that the word gelatin appeared on the Dutch link was being used to add weight to the ridiculous idea that Haribo (or fake Haribo) are being used as a masking agent. If the actual, English language WADA prohibited list had been used this would have been shown to be rubbish.
This problem has cropped up before in the clinic. People twist a foreign language link or use snippets to try and reinforce a point that the link does not reinforce. It's particularly obvious in this case as the WADA list is freely available to anyone and everyone.
You're splitting hairs KB.
More important than whether it's doping is whether it's a masking agent.
That was Scatto's original point, iirc.
Well done to Scatto for creating this brainstorm and for not giving in despite some weird attempts at killing the debate and some posters making and taking it awkardly personal.
Good work @cathwoorg and @dan2016 for expanding, and for doing so in normal fashion without adhoms and belittling comments.
More important than whether it's doping is whether it's a masking agent.
That was Scatto's original point, iirc.
Well done to Scatto for creating this brainstorm and for not giving in despite some weird attempts at killing the debate and some posters making and taking it awkardly personal.
Good work @cathwoorg and @dan2016 for expanding, and for doing so in normal fashion without adhoms and belittling comments.
- Jan 10, 2010
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Re:
You Sir, are quite unbelievable.
Please do not take that as a compliment
Nice job in getting right to the facts KB and shutting this nonsense down.
sniper said:
You Sir, are quite unbelievable.
Please do not take that as a compliment
Nice job in getting right to the facts KB and shutting this nonsense down.
- Apr 3, 2009
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Re:
IMO, It's the wrong question. For the discussion to be legitimate, someone has to show some kind of evidence that either gummi bears contain a masking agent, or that Sagan's gummies were laced with one, and the particular agent is able to act in seconds or a couple of minutes.
Further, there would need to be evidence that either way, the masking agent was either legal or undetectable. Since he wolfed them down before a doping control.
It might also be good to outline why he needs both a finishing bottle and a motor. Is he that bad?
Good luck.
Netserk said:
IMO, It's the wrong question. For the discussion to be legitimate, someone has to show some kind of evidence that either gummi bears contain a masking agent, or that Sagan's gummies were laced with one, and the particular agent is able to act in seconds or a couple of minutes.
Further, there would need to be evidence that either way, the masking agent was either legal or undetectable. Since he wolfed them down before a doping control.
It might also be good to outline why he needs both a finishing bottle and a motor. Is he that bad?
Good luck.
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- Oct 9, 2010
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Re:
As for the IV administration: we're here to learn... some apparently to bully and test. The NADO list is certainly valid for Dutch riders or races in the Netherlands, so don't look for deep plots - they should have added that it is IV-only, like they did with other PED or masking agents.
I did look into some literature and found this: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0141813015005413
Somebody more knowledgeable than me should analyse this, but it suggests that gelatin is modified to carry novel drugs and have both an immediate surface effect and a more sustained effect. Oral administration is one of the routes mentioned - although arguably useless as a plasma expander.
Disclaimer: I like GVA and Peter Sagan, but I'm not ready to believe there is no more blunt doping.
It is said GVA has a cortisone TUE for an infection on his feet. Didn't look it up though. Also, he was seeing a doctor that applied ozone therapy to cyclocross riders. As the evidence was lacking, he was cleared from the case.hrotha said:
As for the IV administration: we're here to learn... some apparently to bully and test. The NADO list is certainly valid for Dutch riders or races in the Netherlands, so don't look for deep plots - they should have added that it is IV-only, like they did with other PED or masking agents.
I did look into some literature and found this: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0141813015005413
Somebody more knowledgeable than me should analyse this, but it suggests that gelatin is modified to carry novel drugs and have both an immediate surface effect and a more sustained effect. Oral administration is one of the routes mentioned - although arguably useless as a plasma expander.
Disclaimer: I like GVA and Peter Sagan, but I'm not ready to believe there is no more blunt doping.
- Jul 25, 2012
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Well clearly that list on the Dutch NADO website isn't valid if it doesn't mention IV administration as it's wrong.
What do gelatin nano particles have to do with masking agents?
What do gelatin nano particles have to do with masking agents?
Re: Re:
Out of curiosity I just went down the rabbit hole and after a very circuitous route involving plasma expanders, oral plasma expanders (they exist: 'Plasmavol', based on mannitol), then mannitol itself, diuretics as masking agents and so on...I somehow eventually ended up with this, a fortuitous warning to everyone never to buy sugar-free Haribo's!:
https://www.amazon.com/Haribo-Sugar-Free-Gummy-Bears/dp/B008JELLCA
Out of curiosity I just went down the rabbit hole and after a very circuitous route involving plasma expanders, oral plasma expanders (they exist: 'Plasmavol', based on mannitol), then mannitol itself, diuretics as masking agents and so on...I somehow eventually ended up with this, a fortuitous warning to everyone never to buy sugar-free Haribo's!:
https://www.amazon.com/Haribo-Sugar-Free-Gummy-Bears/dp/B008JELLCA
- Jul 25, 2012
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Mannitol is an IV plasma expander. I don't know what plasmavol is but I would be very, very skeptical. It's used as a sweetener.
I remember those sugar free gummy bear reviews, they do not sound pleasant!
I remember those sugar free gummy bear reviews, they do not sound pleasant!
- Oct 9, 2010
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I asked an expert, he said:
1/ It's debatable whether gelatin is really forbidden by WADA 2017 - although some components are (glycerol).
2/ It's unsure that it would be a good masking agent.
3/ ... but it's a good question (victory!).
Nothing about IV or oral application, but the option was left open that the bears already contain modified gelatin.
Kudos to Dan2016 for the in-depth review of the product.
1/ It's debatable whether gelatin is really forbidden by WADA 2017 - although some components are (glycerol).
2/ It's unsure that it would be a good masking agent.
3/ ... but it's a good question (victory!).
Nothing about IV or oral application, but the option was left open that the bears already contain modified gelatin.
Kudos to Dan2016 for the in-depth review of the product.
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Re: Re:
Just stating that "I asked an expert" does not mean that you actually asked an expert anything, as this is the clinic, people say all sorts of stuff to further their agenda.
The clinic works well with hard data and facts, not so well with he said, she said.
I can't speak for KB but I'll say this, it would help if you let people know what field this person is an expert in, what's their qualifications and specifically what "question(s)" did you ask them?Scatto said:
Just stating that "I asked an expert" does not mean that you actually asked an expert anything, as this is the clinic, people say all sorts of stuff to further their agenda.
The clinic works well with hard data and facts, not so well with he said, she said.
- Oct 9, 2010
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Re: Re:
The lab director at uni. I asked if gummy bears were any good to mask doping. He didn't say yes or no, as I described above, but he was kind enough to answer. Maybe at some point we'll hear more of him and I will let you know.
It gets a bit comical when you start suspecting forum posters of cheating in a topic on suspicion
The lab director at uni. I asked if gummy bears were any good to mask doping. He didn't say yes or no, as I described above, but he was kind enough to answer. Maybe at some point we'll hear more of him and I will let you know.
It gets a bit comical when you start suspecting forum posters of cheating in a topic on suspicion
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