Men's U23 races and talents

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RedheadDane

RedheadDane

May 5, 2010
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Berniece said:
Or do we do it like for the women, and create a single thread for all activities so that it can be pinned?
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Dazed and Confused said:
I would maintain seperate threads for mens ITT and mens RR (pro elite). The rest of the mens activities could go into a combination thread just like the womens. Its for future refs etc.
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And that leads me to the next question:
What about the Mixed Relay?
 
Logic-is-your-friend

Logic-is-your-friend

Jun 7, 2011
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MLKarlos said:
Just wondering: from all the GC contenders of the Giro Next Gen and L‘avenir it seems like Finn was the only TT contender. Does he have an edge here compared to the others?
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Where "here" do you mean? Next year in Giro u23 and Avenir? In the future as a GC rider?
Also he wasn't the only contender, Seixas finished ahead of him.

ITT's are nearly meaningless in todays GT's. They could cause 30s gaps, but GT's are won by minutes.
 
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MLKarlos

May 10, 2024
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
Where "here" do you mean? Next year in Giro u23 and Avenir? In the future as a GC rider?
Also he wasn't the only contender, Seixas finished ahead of him.

ITT's are nearly meaningless in todays GT's. They could cause 30s gaps, but GT's are won by minutes.
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well, apparently my question was confusing. I wondered: Finn was the only one from the main GC guys from this years Giro next Gen or Tour de l'avenir (Except Seixas) who was taking part in the World Championship TT.
I just wondered if he has a better TT then Widar, Omrzel, Nordhagen etc.
That Seixas already did the TT with the elite speaks for itself.
 
T

theyoungest

Jan 11, 2010
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MLKarlos said:
well, apparently my question was confusing. I wondered: Finn was the only one from the main GC guys from this years Giro next Gen or Tour de l'avenir (Except Seixas) who was taking part in the World Championship TT.
I just wondered if he has a better TT then Widar, Omrzel, Nordhagen etc.
That Seixas already did the TT with the elite speaks for itself.
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If you want to compare him to his competitors at the Giro or the Tour de l'Avenir, why not just look at the time trials in those races? It does not appear he has an advantage there.
 
Logic-is-your-friend

Logic-is-your-friend

Jun 7, 2011
20,802
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MLKarlos said:
well, apparently my question was confusing. I wondered: Finn was the only one from the main GC guys from this years Giro next Gen or Tour de l'avenir (Except Seixas) who was taking part in the World Championship TT.
I just wondered if he has a better TT then Widar, Omrzel, Nordhagen etc.
That Seixas already did the TT with the elite speaks for itself.
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He may become one "of the better" GC TT'ers, but again, that is near meaningless in today's cycling. Most of it comes down to windtunnel testing, training and at the end of the day, GC contenders are just seconds removed in TT's. Look at Evenepoel's advantage in TT's over Pogacar or Vingegaard during the Tour de France. Not even worth mentioning anymore, and he's the best TT'er of this decade. Even Kuss during Vuelta 2023 lost 1m 12s in 25km. That's one of the worst TT'ers to one of the best TT 'ers.
 
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Brullnux

Mar 31, 2015
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
He may become one "of the better" GC TT'ers, but again, that is near meaningless in today's cycling. Most of it comes down to windtunnel testing, training and at the end of the day, GC contenders are just seconds removed in TT's. Look at Evenepoel's advantage in TT's over Pogacar or Vingegaard during the Tour de France. Not even worth mentioning anymore, and he's the best TT'er of this decade.
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A lot of that is because Pogacar and Vingegaard are phenomenal. Evenepoel's only GT is in no small part because of the time he gained in the time trial there.

Besides, only races Pogacar is in are 'won by minutes'. The Vuelta has been won by an average of like 1:00 since 2022; the Giro this year was very close until the final stage, where tactics took over; the 20, 21, 22, and 23 Giros were all fairly close, including two that came down to the final TT. Being a 'better TTer' than your rivals still comes in handy, just not against Pogacar.
 
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Brullnux

Mar 31, 2015
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theyoungest said:
When none of the other riders were even in the race... it doesn't really matter anyway, since the biggest U23 talents Del Toro and Seixas don't race with the U23s.
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Yeah, my point was that we don't really have a comparison point at all, though you'd expect based on this performance and general rider characteristics that Finn would be better than Widar in a TT.

Seixas does race with the U23s and Del Toro is a full three years older, so I don't see what the point in bringing him up is.
 
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theyoungest

Jan 11, 2010
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Brullnux said:
Yeah, my point was that we don't really have a comparison point at all, though you'd expect based on this performance and general rider characteristics that Finn would be better than Widar in a TT.

Seixas does race with the U23s and Del Toro is a full three years older, so I don't see what the point in bringing him up is.
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Seixas doesn't race with the U23s in these championships. Del Toro may be older, but he's still a U23.

I think those two guys are miles ahead of the rest in this category, with the exception of maybe Widar. For the rest it doesn't really matter what their TT capacity is, in terms of getting a GT result.
 
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Brullnux

Mar 31, 2015
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theyoungest said:
Seixas doesn't race with the U23s in these championships. Del Toro may be older, but he's still a U23.

I think those two guys are miles ahead of the rest in this category, with the exception of maybe Widar. For the rest it doesn't really matter what their TT capacity is, in terms of getting a GT result.
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Seixas wasn't able to drop anyone in the Avenir despite having a full year as pro, I don't think he's miles ahead. He is better than the rest for now, but miles ahead is a huge exaggeration (I don't think, for instance, he'd have won yesterday).

I would be really surprised if none of the rest ever feature for a GT. By the time they're 23 Pogacar and Vingegaard will probably be out the picture, and there aren't that many guys younger than them who look like they'll overtake them imminently.
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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Brullnux said:
Seixas wasn't able to drop anyone in the Avenir despite having a full year as pro, I don't think he's miles ahead. He is better than the rest for now, but miles ahead is a huge exaggeration (I don't think, for instance, he'd have won yesterday).

I would be really surprised if none of the rest ever feature for a GT. By the time they're 23 Pogacar and Vingegaard will probably be out the picture, and there aren't that many guys younger than them who look like they'll overtake them imminently.
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Do you think other riders from l'Avenir could get Seixas' result in the Dauphine?

I would expect Seixas to have peaked less specifically for l'Avenir than the others
 
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Brullnux

Mar 31, 2015
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Red Rick said:
Do you think other riders from l'Avenir could get Seixas' result in the Dauphine?

I would expect Seixas to have peaked less specifically for l'Avenir than the others
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No, definitely not, but worth remembering that Nordhagen came 13th in Romandie too, and he looked worse than his age group rivals both at the Giro and Avenir.

I don't think Seixas was at his best during l'Avenir, but it is only natural that a pro goes better than riders who are taking a slower or more gradual route to the WT, for whatever reason. That's why I'm not sure he's 'miles ahead', rather than just... ahead. As an example, I don't think he'd have come within 30s of Soderqvist yesterday.

I also don't think it's fair to right off the rest before they even turn pro. We have seen Ayuso plateau at an early age and others like Almeida grow year on year.
 
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