Merckx picks Gilbert over Van den Broeck for good Tour finish

[El Pistolero]

As youngest has pointed out, if a circuit has one hill, and you do the circuit 8 times then its also hill after hill after hill after hill

No it's not. That's like calling the Worlds this year a hilly classic... There was way more breathing time between the hills in the olympics than at LBL.

Have you actually seen the Olympics? Sure what Canc did was very impressive, but he didn't follow the climbers uphill... And seeing as LBL is way more hilly than the Olympics at Beijing I don't see him getting back once they drop him 1, 2 or 3 times.

And if you're going to use the Olympics as an example why not use the Worlds this year as an example? The Canc got dropped easily. What? He was tired after a long season? And Gilbert wasn't?

At 79kg you're not going to win LBL unless you're doped up beyond imagination.

 

[El Pistolero]

After all, the Olympics and the Worlds are criterium races.

Yes they are.

 

[theyoungest]

And if you're going to use the Olympics as an example why not use the Worlds this year as an example? The Canc got dropped easily. What? He was tired after a long season? And Gilbert wasn't?

Last year's Worlds? Hello? Do you actually read any opposing arguments, or are you just here to troll.

 

[El Pistolero]

Last years world= 2010

I'm just not believing Cancellara will win LBL next year. That's not trolling, but apparantly it is to super fanboys of Cancellara like you that keeps on bringing Cancellara in every Gilbert thread.

I have yet to see someone winning LBL at 79 kgs. I don't believe it at all.

 

[theyoungest]

Last years world= 2010

I'm just not believing Cancellara will win LBL next year. That's not trolling, but apparantly it is to super fanboys of Cancellara like you that keeps on bringing Cancellara in every Gilbert thread.

I have yet to see someone winning LBL at 79 kgs. I don't believe it at all.

And I was referring to the 2009 Worlds, on a much harder course, where Gilbert could barely follow Cancellara uphill in the final lap. And yes, I brought him up in this thread, but not exactly flatteringly, so maybe you should redefine the term fanboy.

 

[El Pistolero]

And I was referring to the 2009 Worlds, on a much harder course, where Gilbert could barely follow Cancellara uphill in the final lap. And yes, I brought him up in this thread, but not exactly flatteringly, so maybe you should redefine the term fanboy.

Cycling is also psychological.

It being his home country and all is a big factor.

 

[Matthijs]

Which is exactly how he could win LBL. You really think he couldn't have done the same thing Vino did this year?

Cancellara: got dropped on the hills in Beijing, got back on the flat, lost the race

Vino: hangs on on the hills of La Redoute, breaks away of all the favourites (the ones that drop Canc uphill) and doubleTT away with Kolobnev from for instance Evans, Valverde and Gilbert (not the worst TTists in the world eather).

So if Cancellara improves from getting dropped to hanging on and also improve so he recoveres in one second and ride away on the false flat, than he can be able to do it like Vino. That's two steps still to make...

Besides: due to calender-issues and the special locations of the Olympics, I think LBL is more a real target of ones season. Cancellara really peaked for this period and location for his TT, but did the hilly/classic specialist? I can guess their real peak is later on for worlds/Paris-Tours/Lombardia.

 

[The Hitch]

I'm just not believing Cancellara will win LBL next year.

No one said he would. Those of us who are defending Cancellara are saying that he has a chance is all. This is in responce to those who come on here and say he has no chance and that there is no evidence of him sticking with climbers on hilly stages.

I have yet to see someone winning LBL at 79 kgs. I don't believe it at all.

I take this strongly into account when i say i expect Cancellara to show good form in the Ardennes classics.

Ps youngest is not a cancellara fanboy.

He may be a Gesink fanboy, a Bauke Mollema fanboy a Lars Boom fanboy, a Dennis Menchov fanboy a Oscar Freire fanboy a Rick Flens fanboy, a Steven kruijswik fanboy a Sebastian Langeveled fanboy a Tom Leezer fanboy.

But he is not a Cancellara fanboy

 

[theyoungest]

He may be a Gesink fanboy, a Bauke Mollema fanboy a Lars Boom fanboy, a Dennis Menchov fanboy a Oscar Freire fanboy a Rick Flens fanboy, a Steven kruijswik fanboy a Sebastian Langeveled fanboy a Tom Leezer fanboy.

But he is not a Cancellara fanboy

OK, I'll bite: obviously I like Gesink and Mollema, but Langeveld? Flens? Leezer? Cobbles riders I don't much care for.

My favourite rider, you'll be happy to hear, is Przemyslaw Niemiec.

 

[Mellow Velo]

OK, I'll bite: obviously I like Gesink and Mollema, but Langeveld? Flens? Leezer? Cobbles riders I don't much care for.

My favourite rider, you'll be happy to hear, is Przemyslaw Niemiec.

Who won the GPM jersey in just about every stage race he rode, this year.
Ever time I watched him, (which was quite a bit) he was off up the road, quite often with a team mate in tow, hoovering up all the mountain classification points.

 

[sublimit]

No one said he would. Those of us who are defending Cancellara are saying that he has a chance is all. This is in responce to those who come on here and say he has no chance and that there is no evidence of him sticking with climbers on hilly stages.



I take this strongly into account when i say i expect Cancellara to show good form in the Ardennes classics.

Ps youngest is not a cancellara fanboy.

He may be a Gesink fanboy, a Bauke Mollema fanboy a Lars Boom fanboy, a Dennis Menchov fanboy a Oscar Freire fanboy a Rick Flens fanboy, a Steven kruijswik fanboy a Sebastian Langeveled fanboy a Tom Leezer fanboy.

But he is not a Cancellara fanboy

You missed out Theo Bos.

 

[theyoungest]

You missed out Theo Bos.

Ah yes, a sprinter... my favourite kind of rider.

 

[El Pistolero]

I take this strongly into account when i say i expect Cancellara to show good form in the Ardennes classics.

What do you mean by that?

For the record, he's weighting 82kg now and thinks 3 kilos less will be enough to win LBL.

I still think Mendrisio is the only good example of Cancellara being able to compete in a hilly classic(he got dropped in the Olympics as I said, but came back on the flat part/descend in an extremely impressive way. He won't be able to do that in LBL because of the quick succession of tougher hills). But even that race was considerably less hilly than LBL. Also Mendrisio being close to where Cancellara lives plays a huge roll. As I said before, cycling is also psychological.

And well if he was so good in 2008/2009 than why didn't he win the Giro di Lombardia twice

He was also the huge favorite to win in Mendrisio, so it's not like he surprised us all with his performance.

 

[The Hitch]

What do you mean by that?

<snip >

And well if he was so good in 2008/2009 than why didn't he win the Giro di Lombardia twice
.

You know what i meant by that

I think these 2 comments are related. As i have pointed out before, Cancellara has a good habbit of being really really really good in any race he targets.

The way he wins them is amazing. I mean to beat the bronze medalist in the world tt by 3 minutes. Paris Roubaix by 4.

Its a subject for the clinic, but i expect Cancellara to follow all the "right" programmes leading into the race he wants to target next year.

He was also the huge favorite to win in Mendrisio, so it's not like he surprised us all with his performance

And hell be a favourite in LBL. So if he does win it wont be a surprise.

OK, I'll bite: obviously I like Gesink and Mollema, but Langeveld? Flens? Leezer? Cobbles riders I don't much care for.

My favourite rider, you'll be happy to hear, is Przemyslaw Niemiec.

I always said the youngest was a top CN forums expert. This thread, confirms this.

 

[El Pistolero]

You know what i meant by that

I think these 2 comments are related. As i have pointed out before, Cancellara has a good habbit of being really really really good in any race he targets.

The way he wins them is amazing. I mean to beat the bronze medalist in the world tt by 3 minutes. Paris Roubaix by 4.

Its a subject for the clinic, but i expect Cancellara to follow all the "right" programmes leading into the race he wants to target next year.


And hell be a favourite in LBL. So if he does win it wont be a surprise.





I always said the youngest was a top CN forums expert. This thread, confirms this.

He won't be favorite in LBL. He has never even ridden the race...

 

[The Hitch]

He won't be favorite in LBL. He has never even ridden the race...

But hes a big name, and as a result, the media will play him up. It is from sections of the media that you get this idea that Cancellara can become a gt guy, or that Millar can win RVV or that Dodger can become a gt guy.

Cancellara is a guy with 4 monuments wins, who isnt that shoddy at climbing. If he were to say that his target for 11 is the Giro, people would play him up as a competitor there. So at Lbl, i am certain that the media will treat him as a favourite, even if he hasnt ridden it.

Why because, Cancellara said hes targeting it and Cancellara is possibly the 2nd biggest name in cycling.

 

[maltiv]

Vino: hangs on on the hills of La Redoute, breaks away of all the favourites (the ones that drop Canc uphill) and doubleTT away with Kolobnev from for instance Evans, Valverde and Gilbert (not the worst TTists in the world eather).

Vinokourov broke away on the flat after trying a few times while the favourites were looking at each other. At this point guys like Simon Gerrans (who was not in good shape), Thomas Voeckler and Christophe Le Mével were still in the main group which was about 15 seconds behind the group with the favourites. Sure, they are decent climbers, but if they were there at this point of the race, Cancellara in top shape could too. And team lux will definitely be able to bring an extremely powerful team which could pull back attackers. I'm not saying Cancellara would be the favourite, or anything close, but he could pull it off.

On to topic: The only way I can imagine Gilbert winning a GT is if he is currently clean and starts doing the juice.

 

[El Pistolero]

But hes a big name, and as a result, the media will play him up. It is from sections of the media that you get this idea that Cancellara can become a gt guy, or that Millar can win RVV or that Dodger can become a gt guy.

Cancellara is a guy with 4 monuments wins, who isnt that shoddy at climbing. If he were to say that his target for 11 is the Giro, people would play him up as a competitor there. So at Lbl, i am certain that the media will treat him as a favourite, even if he hasnt ridden it.

Why because, Cancellara said hes targeting it and Cancellara is possibly the 2nd biggest name in cycling.

And that will only play in his disadvantage if he actually wants to put up a good result in LBL.

And after this season he is the second biggest cyclist yes. Or the biggest if you only include active cyclists. But that could easily change again next year.

Favorite by the media, perhaps. But I think everyone with some cycling knowledge will want to wait till after he has ridden it for the first time before making him a favorite in the future hilly classics.

Or till he rides away from Gilbert at the Cauberg at the Amstel Gold Race.

 

[Matthijs]

Vinokourov broke away on the flat after trying a few times while the favourites were looking at each other. At this point guys like Simon Gerrans (who was not in good shape), Thomas Voeckler and Christophe Le Mével were still in the main group which was about 15 seconds behind the group with the favourites. Sure, they are decent climbers, but if they were there at this point of the race, Cancellara in top shape could too. And team lux will definitely be able to bring an extremely powerful team which could pull back attackers. I'm not saying Cancellara would be the favourite, or anything close, but he could pull it off.

On to topic: The only way I can imagine Gilbert winning a GT is if he is currently clean and starts doing the juice.

says it all... If you're behind the favourites, it's very different then when your with the first five and do multiple attacks. I can understand why you think he can, but still think Cancellara has two steps to make.

I heard some people say a circuits is very different from a race in line. What will be the benefit for Cancellara in a crit type race?

 

[Franklin]

But I think everyone with some cycling knowledge will want to wait till after he has ridden it for the first time before making him a favorite in the future hilly classics.

But of course, that does not count for Gilbert in P-R ?

Let's play the reasoning/factual game:

I assume have some inkling that considering Gilbert having to win three monuments versus Cancellara two is in his disadvantage? Now added Cancellara has held in hilly courses before, whereas Gilbert never contested a true Paris Roubaix (sorry Omloop het Volk does NOT equal remotely carrefour les arbes), could we say that Gilberts chances of winning all monuments isn't bigger as Cancellara's?

Facts are a mean thing, they make positions so utterly untenable

 

[El Pistolero]

But of course, that does not count for Gilbert in P-R ?

Let's play the reasoning/factual game:

I assume have some inkling that considering Gilbert having to win three monuments versus Cancellara two is in his disadvantage? Now added Cancellara has held in hilly courses before, whereas Gilbert never contested a true Paris Roubaix (sorry Omloop het Volk does NOT equal remotely carrefour les arbes), could we say that Gilberts chances of winning all monuments isn't bigger as Cancellara's?

Facts are a mean thing, they make positions so utterly untenable

I've never said anything about Philippe Gilbert and Paris-Roubaix.

And Olympics and Mendrisio don't remotely compare to LBL as well. Might want to watch the race though. Especially the part where Cancellara gets dropped on a hill at the olympics. He came back on a flat part. Good luck coming back at LBL!

Cancellara has never contested FW, AGR, Paris-Tours,GdL and LBL. Gilbert has never contested PR. Nice argument you got there. Holds up really well when you do a comparison.

 

[Franklin]

Nice argument you got there. Holds up really well when you do a comparison.

I know 3 monuments versus 2 which are like rather cold hard facts make arguing this so much fun huh?

Sorry, spin you might, but Gilbert is an extremely talented rider, but Cancellara's chances of winning 5 monuments is at least as good. It's the "already won" that is undeniable.

 

[El Pistolero]

I know 3 monuments versus 2 which are like rather cold hard facts make arguing this so much fun huh?

Sorry, spin you might, but Gilbert is an extremely talented rider, but Cancellara's chances of winning 5 monuments is at least as good. It's the "already won" that is undeniable.

We'll see next season what the balance is then . Cancellara is also a year older.

But what makes me wonder is, if Cancellara was soo good in hilly races in 2008/2009 then why didn't he enter/win any? Self knowledge perhaps. You can make the argument that he entered P-R so couldn't do LBL. But what about Lombardia? It's not like he had a long season after he got fifth in Mendrisio. Doesn't seem to be able to hold form for a long time like Gilbert can.

 

[The Hitch]

We'll see next season what the balance is then . Cancellara is also a year older.

But what makes me wonder is, if Cancellara was soo good in hilly races in 2008/2009 then why didn't he enter/win any? Self knowledge perhaps. You can make the argument that he entered P-R so couldn't do LBL. But what about Lombardia?

That he didnt win them isnt that important. Schleck hasnt won gts and is being tipped for the tour. Cav hasnt won the mv but is tipped for it. Sagan hasnt won a classic but is tipped for 5 monuments.

A cycling race has 200 competitors. Coming top 10 is a sign that you can perform. He came 2nd in the olympics. 5th in the worlds. That suggests he can perform.

Cancellara 2008 had a early classics peak. Cancellara 2009 had a TDS TDF peak. In both the Olympics and WC he won the tt. THis year, its all about LBL. Theres no tt hes trying to win 3 days later. Theres no early peak for MSR before LBL.
Its just LBL.

Historically when Cancellara says he is going to focus on something, he is to be taken seriously. MSR check. PR check. RVV check. Olympic tt check. World tt check.


And i find it revealing that you havent corrected Franklin where he says Gilbert has won 2 monuments to Cancellaras 3. I guess Gilbert needs every little help he can get in this argument Including the perception that he has already won lbl

 

[El Pistolero]

That he didnt win them isnt that important. Schleck hasnt won gts and is being tipped for the tour. Cav hasnt won the mv but is tipped for it. Sagan hasnt won a classic but is tipped for 5 monuments.

A cycling race has 200 competitors. Coming top 10 is a sign that you can perform. He came 2nd in the olympics. 5th in the worlds. That suggests he can perform.

Cancellara 2008 had a early classics peak. Cancellara 2009 had a TDS TDF peak. In both the Olympics and WC he won the tt. THis year, its all about LBL. Theres no tt hes trying to win 3 days later. Theres no early peak for MSR before LBL.
Its just LBL.

Historically when Cancellara says he is going to focus on something, he is to be taken seriously. MSR check. PR check. RVV check. Olympic tt check. World tt check.


And i find it revealing that you havent corrected Franklin where he says Gilbert has won 2 monuments to Cancellaras 3. I guess Gilbert needs every little help he can get in this argument Including the perception that he has already won lbl

Or I read over that part?

What you say is complete bull**** though.

Cancellara didn't enter Lombardia. So how was he close to winning that hilly classic? I wasn't talking about the Worlds or the Olympics. I'm just saying if he was so good at hilly races in those years then why didn't he enter Lombardia, LBL, AGR or FW? Or why not even Paris-Tours? Most winners last decade won with a hill attack anyway.
And you ignore 2 years in your history. 2007 and 2009. He failed at his spring classic goals then. But of course you ignored that.

2009: Philippe Gilbert peaked at MSR, peaked at the RVV, peaked at LBL, peaked at the Giro d'italia, peaked at the worlds, peaked at Paris-Tours, he peaked at the Giro di Lombardia.
2010: Philippe Gilbert peaked at MSR, peaked at the RVV, peaked at LBL, peaked at the Vuelta, peaked at the Worlds, peaked at the Giro di Lombardia.

No Cancellara can't get a peaking excuse here. He didn't win Lombardia in those 2 years because he knew he was chanceless and didn't bother entering. It's not impossible to hold form from the first monument till the last. Philippe Gilbert proved it this year(cause coming top 10 is a sign you can perform).