Merckx's view on Gilbert

[ultimobici]

Exactly, and I personally rate wins in hilly classics much higher than cobbled classics as the field tends to be much more competitive.

What on earth have you been smoking? The Ronde and Paris Roubaix are two of the five Monuments of the sport. The list of winners of both are a who's who of cycling's superstars down the ages. In the same way LBL, MSR & Lombardia are the same. Most years they're won by a true champion of the sport. Occasionally we get a one off winner like Dirk Demol or Jean Marie Wampers, but there isn't a single PR winner in the last 20 years who is a minnow. With the Ronde you have to go back almost 30 years for a winner that promts a puzzled "Who?".

Admittedly the cobbled classics suit fewer riders that races like lBL & Lombardia but that doesn't mean they are any more or less highly prized or hotly contested. When Jacky Durand won the 1992 Ronde there were grown men in tears that a Frenchman had won "their" race, and to rub it in won it in style as well. 217km out in front!

Ask a Belgian which race he'd like to win above all others and you're more likely to hear De Ronde than La Doyenne too.

 

[The Hitch]

What on earth have you been smoking? The Ronde and Paris Roubaix are two of the five Monuments of the sport. The list of winners of both are a who's who of cycling's superstars down the ages. In the same way LBL, MSR & Lombardia are the same. Most years they're won by a true champion of the sport. Occasionally we get a one off winner like Dirk Demol or Jean Marie Wampers, but there isn't a single PR winner in the last 20 years who is a minnow. With the Ronde you have to go back almost 30 years for a winner that promts a puzzled "Who?".

Admittedly the cobbled classics suit fewer riders that races like lBL & Lombardia but that doesn't mean they are any more or less highly prized or hotly contested. When Jacky Durand won the 1992 Ronde there were grown men in tears that a Frenchman had won "their" race, and to rub it in won it in style as well. 217km out in front!

Ask a Belgian which race he'd like to win above all others and you're more likely to hear De Ronde than La Doyenne too.

Dont feed the troll

Just kidding, but yes you sum it up well about De Ronde. It is the biggest one day race in the world. 1 in every 5 residents of Flanders comes out for it. Every town it visits is packed to the rafters with fans. I read Stybar say after he won some Koppenberg cyclocross event that his dream would be to win the REAL thing in April.

I dont see that a 10th of those crowds or that emotion in Giro Lombardia, which incidentally is the ONLY monument Gilbert has won.

 

[JPM London]

...

Cancellara certainly has more stage race and time trial wins however.

...

So if we ignore a lot of Canc's wins, Gilbert has won more? Well, at least it makes mathematical sense...

...We all know he's the best TTer in the world.

Ah, so Gilbert is better than Canc because we know Canc is a better tempo rider than Gilbert? Ok, I'm lost...

In the end Canc is prob going to make all the monuments and pretty soon at that as well - that's not half bad. Right now there's no doubt who's greater in my book, but completely agree though that Gilbert has a couple of years on his side.
In three year's time or so I'm curious to how I rate the two against each other.

 

[El Pistolero]

Dont feed the troll

Just kidding, but yes you sum it up well about De Ronde. It is the biggest one day race in the world. 1 in every 5 residents of Flanders comes out for it. Every town it visits is packed to the rafters with fans. I read Stybar say after he won some Koppenberg cyclocross event that his dream would be to win the REAL thing in April.

I dont see that a 10th of those crowds or that emotion in Giro Lombardia, which incidentally is the ONLY monument Gilbert has won.

Nor do you see that emotion at any other one day race in cycling.

P-R comes close, but that's historical Flemish territory as well anyway and those crowds are also Flemish people. The crowds say nothing about the competition though. There are more climbers than cobbled specialists hence why people think the competition is tougher in the hilly classics. Even small Flemish races have bigger crowds then most one day races. Doesn't mean they're automatically better though.

For a non-Italian to win the Giro di Lombardia two times in a row is pretty impressive if you ask me. Just like it's impressive to do the Ronde and P-R double in one season if you're not a Belgian.

And well it was raining like hell when Gilbert won in Lombardia this year

For Flemish people the Ronde is a holiday. And not because of easter, we just use that as an excuse to go watch the Ronde live or on tv with family.

 

[ultimobici]

Ah, so Gilbert is better than Canc because we know Canc is a better tempo rider than Gilbert? Ok, I'm lost...

Watching the last 30km of Lombardia last year it looked like Gilbert wasn't too shabby in the tempo-riding department. Scarponi contributed barely anything to the effort.

 

[JPM London]

Watching the last 30km of Lombardia last year it looked like Gilbert wasn't too shabby in the tempo-riding department. Scarponi contributed barely anything to the effort.

Completely agree and didn't mean to imply Gilbert is particularly bad at it - just had a problem with the conclusion that Gilbert is better than Canc because it's somehow unfair Canc is the TT'er of the generation...

 

[Arnout]

Seems I hit a soft spot

Let's phrase it this way, I personally value Gilbert's achievements more than Cancellara's achievements. Look at the top riders in Flanders or Roubaix and I see many names that are second tier in any other race because of increased competition. And it was only this year that Cancellara really dominated them. In other years he was the best time trialler of the world, which is good, but his first victory in a long time trial in the Tour de France was in 2010.

At the moment, Gilbert is the best rider in races with a much higher quality field. For me, that is very important. I concede that this is entirely subjective, but for me Gilbert will never be in the shadow of Cancellara.

 

[For The World]

So if we ignore a lot of Canc's wins, Gilbert has won more? Well, at least it makes mathematical sense...

I'm not discounting anything for either rider. I'm simply illustrating that Gilbert has won more one day races at this point, but Cancellara has more wins overall, and has also won three monuments to Gilberts one. If I was going to say one is better than the other, I'd say Cancellara from a standpoint of type of wins, but I do think Gilbert is a fantastic rider who has the ability to be Cancellaras equal in one day races (as in, having a very similar palmares overall).

 

[The Hitch]

Lombardy.

1 Philippe Gilbert (BEL)
2 Michele Scarponi (ITA)
3 Pablo Lastras (ESP)
4 Jakob Fuglsang (DEN)
5 Vincenzo Nibali (ITA)
6 Samuel Sánchez (ESP)
7 Mikel Nieve (ESP)
8 Mauro Santambrogio (ITA)
9 Carlos Barredo (ESP)
10 Giampaolo Caruso (ITA)

Is that really much better than RVV?


1 Fabian Cancellara (SUI)
2 Tom Boonen (BEL)
3 Philippe Gilbert (BEL)
4 Björn Leukemans (BEL)
5 Tyler Farrar (USA)
6 George Hincapie (USA)
7 Roger Hammond (GBR)
8 Maxim Iglinskiy (KAZ)
9 Danilo Hondo (GER)
10 William Bonnet (FRA)

And say what you want about "quality of field" bear in mind that a lot of those top names, if not most of them are peaking for grand tours and not on top form for Lombardy. If Gilbert had won liege you could argue different but with Lombardy, Gilbert was the one peaking for it, all the others had their peak at the Giro, Vuelta or Tour.

Canc on the other hand is facing others who see PR and RVV as their main season aims.

 

[Arnout]

To me, yeah. But again, this is personal and I think we won't agree on this even though we keep repeating ourselves

 

[Willy_Voet]

Gilbert is not exactly the world's worst sprinter...I'd rate him somewhere between a Pozzato and a Freire. And with respect to a "sprinter's course", he could pull a Cancellara and win with a strong move in the last few kms.

 

[Matthijs]

Lombardy.

1 Philippe Gilbert (BEL)
2 Michele Scarponi (ITA)
3 Pablo Lastras (ESP)
4 Jakob Fuglsang (DEN)
5 Vincenzo Nibali (ITA)
6 Samuel Sánchez (ESP)
7 Mikel Nieve (ESP)
8 Mauro Santambrogio (ITA)
9 Carlos Barredo (ESP)
10 Giampaolo Caruso (ITA)

Is that really much better than RVV?


1 Fabian Cancellara (SUI)
2 Tom Boonen (BEL)
3 Philippe Gilbert (BEL)
4 Björn Leukemans (BEL)
5 Tyler Farrar (USA)
6 George Hincapie (USA)
7 Roger Hammond (GBR)
8 Maxim Iglinskiy (KAZ)
9 Danilo Hondo (GER)
10 William Bonnet (FRA)

And say what you want about "quality of field" bear in mind that a lot of those top names, if not most of them are peaking for grand tours and not on top form for Lombardy. If Gilbert had won liege you could argue different but with Lombardy, Gilbert was the one peaking for it, all the others had their peak at the Giro, Vuelta or Tour.

Canc on the other hand is facing others who see PR and RVV as their main season aims.

I see your point, Lombardy has in general a weaker field. But I think it's not the whole true.
Gilbert peaks for the worlds, weeks and continents away from Lombardy. While most of his opponents though the worlds course wasn't hilly enough.

 

[ultimobici]

Lombardy.

1 Philippe Gilbert (BEL)
2 Michele Scarponi (ITA)
3 Pablo Lastras (ESP)
4 Jakob Fuglsang (DEN)
5 Vincenzo Nibali (ITA)
6 Samuel Sánchez (ESP)
7 Mikel Nieve (ESP)
8 Mauro Santambrogio (ITA)
9 Carlos Barredo (ESP)
10 Giampaolo Caruso (ITA)

Is that really much better than RVV?


1 Fabian Cancellara (SUI)
2 Tom Boonen (BEL)
3 Philippe Gilbert (BEL)
4 Björn Leukemans (BEL)
5 Tyler Farrar (USA)
6 George Hincapie (USA)
7 Roger Hammond (GBR)
8 Maxim Iglinskiy (KAZ)
9 Danilo Hondo (GER)
10 William Bonnet (FRA)

And say what you want about "quality of field" bear in mind that a lot of those top names, if not most of them are peaking for grand tours and not on top form for Lombardy. If Gilbert had won liege you could argue different but with Lombardy, Gilbert was the one peaking for it, all the others had their peak at the Giro, Vuelta or Tour.

Canc on the other hand is facing others who see PR and RVV as their main season aims.

I agree that the RVV top 10 is more packed with full on classics men but one cannot compare the two directly in reality.

Of the RVV contenders few would even consider vying for the win in Lombardia. Boonen, Farrar, Hincapie and the rest of the top 10 barring Cancellara & Gilbert have not made any reference to a desire to win Lombardia at all. Cancellara's spring campaign was incredible but I think you're overlooking Gilbert's achievements in 2010. Top 10 in MSR & Fleche, podiums in RVV, LBL & GW as well as wins in Amstel, Lombardia & Piemonte.

If anything Gilbert looks like a better bet for winning the full set if he can focus on spring only for his classics campaign as Cancellara does. In 2010 he may have spread himself too thin and not won as much as he could have.

 

[The Hitch]

Cancellara's spring campaign was incredible but I think you're overlooking Gilbert's achievements in 2010. Top 10 in MSR & Fleche, podiums in RVV, LBL & GW as well as wins in Amstel, Lombardia & Piemonte.

How am i overlooking his achievments?

All i said was that in 5 years Gilbert would be behind, and according to a poll 2 months ago, 51% of the forum agree with me.

Then again 60% thought Mosquera would beat Nibali so the majority isnt always right. On the other hand i was in the 40% that said Nibali would win som maybe im always right

 

[ultimobici]

How am i overlooking his achievments?

Not overlooking, more that I think Gilbert is massively underestimated in April, both by us and perhaps Gilbert himself. If he was to focus exclusively on RVV etc I think he could cause a bit of an upset. A Walloon victorious in Flanders - something that hasn't been done since Criquielion won in 87.

All i said was that in 5 years Gilbert would be behind, and according to a poll 2 months ago, 51% of the forum agree with me.

Then again 60% thought Mosquera would beat Nibali so the majority isnt always right. On the other hand i was in the 40% that said Nibali would win som maybe im always right

Statistics!

I'd love to see Gilbert win at Boonen & Cacellara's expense. It would have to be one for the record books if he did.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Not overlooking, more that I think Gilbert is massively underestimated in April, both by us and perhaps Gilbert himself. If he was to focus exclusively on RVV etc I think he could cause a bit of an upset. A Walloon victorious in Flanders - something that hasn't been done since Criquielion won in 87.

Statistics!

I'd love to see Gilbert win at Boonen & Cacellara's expense. It would have to be one for the record books if he did.

Ah yes, but us Flemish dudes have a sweet spot for Phil and Maxime. They're able to understand and speak Vlaams. Thus they're flemish riders

 

[Mich78BEL]

Ah yes, but us Flemish dudes have a sweet spot for Phil and Maxime. They're able to understand and speak Vlaams.

that and Gilbert's riding-style makes him quite popular among Flemish-cycling-fans

 

[ultimobici]

Ah yes, but us Flemish dudes have a sweet spot for Phil and Maxime. They're able to understand and speak Vlaams. Thus they're flemish riders

Rides like a Flandrian too.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Rides like a Flandrian too.

well yeah, and that too

 

[c&cfan]

how on earth can someone with a brain say that gilbert has a better palmares than cancellara? cancellara wins overall classifications in tirreno and suisse etc, cancellara wins more REAL DEAL classics, cancellara wins TTs cancellara is 4 time world TT champion and has 2 olympic medals, he works like hell for andy in the tour, still he is in yellow some days etc etc all of this at the same age of gilbert. gilbert is a very good rider at classics. but even at it he isnt great. proof? results aka wins.

 

[ultimobici]

how on earth can someone with a brain say that gilbert has a better palmares than cancellara? cancellara wins overall classifications in tirreno and suisse etc, cancellara wins more REAL DEAL classics, cancellara wins TTs cancellara is 4 time world TT champion and has 2 olympic medals, he works like hell for andy in the tour, still he is in yellow some days etc etc all of this at the same age of gilbert. gilbert is a very good rider at classics. but even at it he isnt great. proof? results aka wins.

I'm not suggesting that Gilbert is better than Cancellara. What I am suggesting is that Gilbert is perfectly capable of winning MSR, RVV & LBL. He came close this year so many times in spring and autumn that it is not an unrealistic idea.

Look at his results and you see a rider who competes the full season and wins at both ends of the year.

Cancellara has incredible talent against the watch and used it to devastating effect in Flanders and Roubaix but that won't work in Liege nor Lombardia. He may very well go on winning in Flanders & Roubaix but the chances of him pulling a Mottet in Lombardy are slim to none. Flanders climbs are ideal for his power as is the pave. The Italian Lakes have climbs that require different talents that are not his strong suit. The Ghisallo is almost 10km long, the San Fedele is 8km long, only San Fermo della Battaglia is short like a Flandrian climb. But you have to be clear of the bunch at its base to be in with a chance of victory.

Gilbert on the other hand has more high finishes in the Monuments he has yet to win. 3rd in Flanders and Liege last year, 9th in San Remo and 2009 wasn't too bad either 3rd in Flanders & 4th in Liege.

On balance Gilbert has more chance of "completing the set" IMO. Cancellara doesn't appear to have ridden the Giro di Lombardia ever. How in the world he thinks he can just rock up and waste everyone in a race that is more about tactical guile than brute force is amusing to me. The peloton would have to be asleep for Cancellara to be allowed enough rope.

 

[Willy_Voet]

How in the world he thinks he can just rock up and waste everyone in a race that is more about tactical guile than brute force is amusing to me. The peloton would have to be asleep for Cancellara to be allowed enough rope.

If you really want the answer to that, we should move on over to the "other" forum.

 

[ultimobici]

If you really want the answer to that, we should move on over to the "other" forum.

True, he would need some "extra" help!

 

[The Hitch]

I'm not suggesting that Gilbert is better than Cancellara.

Your not, but read some of the other posts. A lot of people are.

What I am suggesting is that Gilbert is perfectly capable of winning MSR, RVV & LBL. He came close this year so many times in spring and autumn that it is not an unrealistic idea.

No one suggests its an unrealistic idea. Everyone knows Gilbert is fully capable to win the 3 you mention. I doubt he WILL win MSR but he has a very big chance at RVV. Hes the clear favourite for LBL. Lbl will next year be either won by Gilbert or not by Gilbert.

Gilbert is as lilkely to win LBL as Andy Schleck is to win the Tour.

Look at his results and you see a rider who competes the full season and wins at both ends of the year.

So does Cancellara.

He won Tour of Quatar (or was it Oman?) in February, E3 Prijs in March, Flanders and Paris Roubaix in April, TDS stage in June, 2 TDF stages in July and Worlds tt in October.

Gilbert on the other hand has more high finishes in the Monuments he has yet to win. 3rd in Flanders and Liege last year, 9th in San Remo and 2009 wasn't too bad either 3rd in Flanders & 4th in Liege.

So Cancellara has in his 2 weaker monuments a NA and NA. Gilbert has NA and 9th. So he has a slight advantage. But that advantage is totaly crushed when you consider the fact that Gilbert actually STILL has to win LBL and RVV before he can even focuse on the other 2. Canc is already there.

Cancellara has incredible talent against the watch and used it to devastating effect in Flanders and Roubaix but that won't work in Liege nor Lombardia. He may very well go on winning in Flanders & Roubaix but the chances of him pulling a Mottet in Lombardy are slim to none. Flanders climbs are ideal for his power as is the pave. The Italian Lakes have climbs that require different talents that are not his strong suit. The Ghisallo is almost 10km long, the San Fedele is 8km long, only San Fermo della Battaglia is short like a Flandrian climb. But you have to be clear of the bunch at its base to be in with a chance of victory.


On balance Gilbert has more chance of "completing the set" IMO. Cancellara doesn't appear to have ridden the Giro di Lombardia ever. How in the world he thinks he can just rock up and waste everyone in a race that is more about tactical guile than brute force is amusing to me. The peloton would have to be asleep for Cancellara to be allowed enough rope.

You dont know if Cancellara doesnt have what it takes to climb Lombardy or Liege because he has never tried it. He has always been making himself into a powerhouse tter and cobbles rider. Now hes got all of those, he can start to lose weight and focus on the climbs.

You dont know if hell lose for sure because there is no prescedent. Oh wai, there is. Worlds 09 and Olympic road race 08. Both races with significant hills and Cancellara way up there in both with a 2nd in Beijing and a 5th in Mendrisio. Impressive baring in mind he was still a cobbles rider -tter and that he was focusing on gold in the tts the same week as well.

Take into account those impressive results, the fact that he will now focus on climbs, and as Willy Voet rightly points out - the clinic, and you have a rider far more able to handle Lombardias climbs than the one you portray. Certainatly as much chance of getting those 2, with a 5 month gap between them every year, as Gilbert is to take Boonen for that RVV, THEN come back to his home town to secure that LBL, THEN steal it from the sprinters at MSR and THEN become a cobbled rider and woop Hushovd, Boonen, Flecha and by then Phinney etc on the cobbles.

Now cue El pistolero to come tell me that Beijing doesnt count because Liege doesnt have so much pollution

 

[Echoes]

They're able to understand and speak Vlaams.

Dutch

Thus they're flemish riders

Belgian ...

Rides like a Flandrian too.

Like a Belgian. Everywhere in Belgium, we've got that bad weather.