Gilbert is a better rider. Simply because he rides his bike and make the races instead of stopping other riders to race like Cancellara...
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Don't act that stupid. You know what he means.Echoes said:Dutch
Belgian ...
Like a Belgian. Everywhere in Belgium, we've got that bad weather.
Ultimobici was talking about a Walloon being victorious in Flanders. Not about a Belgian being victorious in Belgium.
And if you even got a problem with the term "flandrien"...
My two cents-
Cancellara has the better palmares.
Gilbert has the greater potential to win a clean sweep of monuments.
Cancellara has an incredible engine; Gilbert has incredible acceleration.
Personally, I prefer watching Gilbert as he reminds me of old school racing and brings panache to races.
I think BOTH will go down as great riders when all is said and done in 10 years time.
Cancellara has the better palmares.
Gilbert has the greater potential to win a clean sweep of monuments.
Cancellara has an incredible engine; Gilbert has incredible acceleration.
Personally, I prefer watching Gilbert as he reminds me of old school racing and brings panache to races.
I think BOTH will go down as great riders when all is said and done in 10 years time.
Echoes said:Dutch
Belgian ...
Like a Belgian. Everywhere in Belgium, we've got that bad weather.
vlaams does not equal dutch.
And bout canc and the hills, see Mendrisio 09 as Hitch already mentioned. He was amazing.
Mendrisio is a red herring. I don't mean that it was an easy or flat course. But it was held on a circuit and as such has a very different dynamic to a race like a regular classic. The route is more predictable as a rider only has to count the laps for reference. The climbs in Mendrisio didn't go over 440m and were no longer than 2km long. How does that compare to Lombardia where the shortest climb is longer than that and has a greater height gain? Most of the climbs are 8-10km long and over 700m. Cancellara is at home on short sharp stuff like Flanders and Mendrisio but I don't see him romping up these, especially as he's never ridden them before.Michielveedeebee said:
San Fedele d'Intelvi 780m 8km 9% average with 1km @ 14%
Ghisallo 784m 9km 10% average with extended sections of 12%
Sormano 1124m 9.6km 6% average sections of over 7%
San Fermo della Battaglia 2.5km almost 8% average
This is country suited to the likes of Cunego, Gilbert, Mottet & Hinault. I'll go as far as saying Cancellara will not win Lombardia. Ever.
Well, until the last couple of years i didn't think that Gilbert would have been able to handle these climbs (and yes, i do understand that Gilbert is naturally more suited)
Yet he finished second in Beijing, with a what, 8 km climb? And he won the Tour de Suisse, sure, not the most dificult edition, but those climbs certainly weren't easier than those in Lombardia. And don't forget the things he has shown in the Tour, like the 2008 stage to Alpe D'Huez. Cancellara has proven just as much on long climbs as Gilbert, probably more.ultimobici said:
I somehow relate to Merckx on Gilbert's potential, but I cannot foresee a team exclusively built around him-unless he gets an sponsor willing to do so. He & Cancellara are two of a kind whose careers look bright but they need to acknowledge their abilities & limitations to aim for the upcoming challenges. I' love to see Gilbert becoming a Week race contender so he could go for Paris-Nice, Catalunya, Pais Basco Dauphine & Tour de Suisse.
El Pistolero said:
Then give some examples of good to great performances on longer climbs by Gilbert comparable to those of Cancellara.
Beijing had two "climbs". The longer gained 338 and a half metres over its 12.4km giving an average gradient of 2.8%, the shorter was a fraction of the length at 350m and according to the official blurb, was a short but moderately steep climb.Lanark said:
Hardly mountainous.
The Ghisallo in comparison is almost twice the gradient, and both San Fedele and the Sormano are over double the gradient.
Couple that with heavy lakeside roads that make an escape very difficult to actually pull off not to mention weather that can be a little bit of a lottery and
Fabian is pretty much SOL unless the course change for 2011 has a more open run in to the finish.
Have you even seen the Olympic race? It had an 8km climb of about 4.5%, the Ghisallo is an 8km climb of 5.5%, a little more difficult, but then again you don't have to do it 7 times. The Sormano is a difficult and long climb, I'll give you that. These is no San Fedele in Lombardia. You have to keep in mind of course that we haven't seen any real action on these climbs since 2006, a good Cancellara would have no trouble surviving the 30-40 man groups we see on the Ghisallo every year.ultimobici said:
Again, we have seen Cancellara hang on, and even sprint for seconds on climbs like thisand this. More than comparable to anything Gilbert has shown on longer climbs (surviving in a 30-man pack).
The Olympic race route was described as having two climbs, one of 12.5km and the last 350m one. That said there was a false flat at the top of the 12.5km so that may account for the discrepancy.Lanark said:
7 times up any climb is not to be sniffed at, but the nature of a circuit is that riders have a much better idea of where they are in relation to the finish and indeed their rivals. A meandering route like most of the classics is very different. Having never ridden the course is a pretty big disadvantage, especially if it is outside of your normal comfort zone.
The Ghisallo is not that long and on the face of it it is not that steep. But that gradient is misleading. There is almost 2km of flat & downhill before the last 1500m kick to the top. There are sections of 10-12% in this last bit to bookend the early steep section you encounter in the first couple of kilometres. there's even a helpful sign announcing the gradient of 14%, only problem being that it actually has short bits of 16-8% mixed in with 10-12% to achieve this!
San Fedele d'Intelvi is the first climb that the riders encounter once they are on the lake. it climbs from a sharp turn-off in Argegno and tops out in the market square 8 or so km later. This is where many of the abandons happened last year, doubtless because of the sign a kilometre or so down the climb that cheerfully announced "Arrivo 200KM"!
Last year's Lombardia didn't see 30-40 riders cruise up the Ghisallo, there were attacks from riders left right and centre. Only 34 riders finished the race in 2010, many climbed off in San Fedele judging by the number that blasted past me on the descent into Argegno.
Point is there are several contenders who know this race backwards, have the necessary tools and are motivated to win. Gilbert has two wins, Cunego has three, Santambroglio is free of Cunego and local. Cancellara needs more than a big engine, he needs knowledge & luck in spades.
You put too much emphasis on the fact that he doesnt know the course.
No one said he has to win it THIS year. Or even the next. Hes 29 years old. Vino just won Liege at 36. Hes got a few years to train there, study the route, get in shape and of course race these races. Both Liege and Lombardy and Worlds 2012. Prepare in stage races as wel.
Wiggins went from being a pursuit rider to staying with the best in the Alpes. Its a far easier transition for one of the great classics riders of his time to becoming slightly better on Lombardy and Ardennes climbs. Its not like hes trying to stick with Contador on Verbier or anything.
Your looking at cobbled Cancellara of 2010 and saying he doesnt have a chance at competing in Lombardy. Of course he doesnt. cobbled Cancellara cant climb.
But Cancellara has now got his 3 other monuments. Hes got plenty of time to prepare properly, carefully, to explore, to learn, to get in shape, to train and to improve. These things make a big big difference.
No one said he has to win it THIS year. Or even the next. Hes 29 years old. Vino just won Liege at 36. Hes got a few years to train there, study the route, get in shape and of course race these races. Both Liege and Lombardy and Worlds 2012. Prepare in stage races as wel.
Wiggins went from being a pursuit rider to staying with the best in the Alpes. Its a far easier transition for one of the great classics riders of his time to becoming slightly better on Lombardy and Ardennes climbs. Its not like hes trying to stick with Contador on Verbier or anything.
Your looking at cobbled Cancellara of 2010 and saying he doesnt have a chance at competing in Lombardy. Of course he doesnt. cobbled Cancellara cant climb.
But Cancellara has now got his 3 other monuments. Hes got plenty of time to prepare properly, carefully, to explore, to learn, to get in shape, to train and to improve. These things make a big big difference.
That still doesn't change the fact that Gilbert can do well in MSR, LBL, RVV and Lombardia in one season. Cancellara can't.
El Pistolero said:
whats that got to do with anything. I was explaining nicely why Cancellara has time to win these races and doesnt have to do it next year.
Now you bring in this random point.
Great for Gilbert. Im sure his palmares will nicely read in 10 years (he is known for doing well in several monuments in a season)
Probably wont be as well aknowledged as he won Pr and RVV in the same year, or even he won 4 world tt championships.
Nobdody here is saying Gilbert is crap.
He can keep his a win 2 podiums and a top 10 in one season. I think he would trade in all of that, his AGR his, Giro di whatver and his 2 vuelta stages for simply, a win at Lbl or RVV. Dont you?
The Hitch said:whats that got to do with anything. I was explaining nicely why Cancellara has time to win these races and doesnt have to do it next year.
Now you bring in this random point.
Great for Gilbert. Im sure his palmares will nicely read in 10 years (he is known for doing well in several monuments in a season)
Probably wont be as well aknowledged as he won Pr and RVV in the same year, or even he won 4 world tt championships.
Nobdody here is saying Gilbert is crap.
He can keep his a win 2 podiums and a top 10 in one season. I think he would trade in all of that, his AGR his, Giro di whatver and his 2 vuelta stages for simply, a win at Lbl or RVV. Dont you?
They're classics for a reason, you can't win them every year. Like how it took 5-6 tries for Cancellara to finally win RVV and he has many failed attempts at PR as well. Gilbert won a monument this year and last year. Gilbert can compete well in 4 monuments every season which increases his chance of winning one every season. Cancellara won 2 this year, but like Boonen, he won't do it every year as luck plays a too big role.
El Pistolero said:
No your right Cancellara wont win 2 monuments or even one every season.
But he doesnt need to.
One in 2013 the other in 2015.
Thatll do, Spartacus. Thatll do.
The Hitch said:
When you're going to call the Giro di Lombardia Giro di whatever I have a hard time taking you serious anymore
I don't see how that is less a race than either RvV or LBL.And there are many that won LBL or RvV once. Great. But what makes Gilbert special is not the ability to win LBL or RvV, but the ability to win almost all classics. That means trading in one for the other will make him less special.
Arnout said:When you're going to call the Giro di Lombardia Giro di whatever I have a hard time taking you serious anymore
And there are many that won LBL or RvV once. Great. But what makes Gilbert special is not the ability to win LBL or RvV, but the ability to win almost all classics. That means trading in one for the other will make him less special.
Sigh.
I was not reffering to Lombardy. His monument performances were covered when i said "All of that". I then moved on to less important races. Vuelta stages, Amstel Gold and when i said Giro di whatever i was talking about the race Gilbert won the week before - Giro del Piemonte.
Possibly.The Hitch said:
But, as El Pistolero said, luck plays a big part in all the classics including Lombardia.
Nibali lost out due to a crash on the Sormano, Scarponi to fluffing a gear change.
I can't see Cancellara trading his WC title chances for Lombardia. That's what he risks if he loses enough weight to be better able to challenge in a mountainous classic. Gilbert is already there in that terrain and just needs a little bit of luck in LBL/RVV/MSR.
It will be interesting to see what happens this season. Cancellara has to drop that extra muscle bulk at some point, trouble is when does he do it? If he's to challenge at Liege then his RVV & PR are not as sure to be defended. Then come the Tour he's less able to take the Prologue, and his TT title is at risk.
It's a very delicate balancing act he'll have to pull off, IMO.
I think Hitch was referring more to a Belgian trading in ANY win for a Ronde or Doyenne. Which I completely understand.Arnout said:When you're going to call the Giro di Lombardia Giro di whatever I have a hard time taking you serious anymore
And there are many that won LBL or RvV once. Great. But what makes Gilbert special is not the ability to win LBL or RvV, but the ability to win almost all classics. That means trading in one for the other will make him less special.
Not if he skips RVV and PR, and hes said words to that effect.ultimobici said:
And forget the TDF prologues.
There is no TDF prologue in 2011 and in 2012 it happens to be in Liege, which
1 hes already won a tdf prologue in Liege - 2004, and
2 there is another race which starts and finishes in liege which Cancellara wants more.
The Hitch said:
Knew I should have looked at the route first!
What about his team role for the Schlecks? Will he be better for that as a consequence of his LBL diet?
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