Gilbert is a better rider. Simply because he rides his bike and make the races instead of stopping other riders to race like Cancellara...
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Don't act that stupid. You know what he means.Echoes said:Dutch
Belgian ...
Like a Belgian. Everywhere in Belgium, we've got that bad weather.
Echoes said:Dutch
Belgian ...
Like a Belgian. Everywhere in Belgium, we've got that bad weather.
Mendrisio is a red herring. I don't mean that it was an easy or flat course. But it was held on a circuit and as such has a very different dynamic to a race like a regular classic. The route is more predictable as a rider only has to count the laps for reference. The climbs in Mendrisio didn't go over 440m and were no longer than 2km long. How does that compare to Lombardia where the shortest climb is longer than that and has a greater height gain? Most of the climbs are 8-10km long and over 700m. Cancellara is at home on short sharp stuff like Flanders and Mendrisio but I don't see him romping up these, especially as he's never ridden them before.Michielveedeebee said:vlaams does not equal dutch.
And bout canc and the hills, see Mendrisio 09 as Hitch already mentioned. He was amazing.
Yet he finished second in Beijing, with a what, 8 km climb? And he won the Tour de Suisse, sure, not the most dificult edition, but those climbs certainly weren't easier than those in Lombardia. And don't forget the things he has shown in the Tour, like the 2008 stage to Alpe D'Huez. Cancellara has proven just as much on long climbs as Gilbert, probably more.ultimobici said:Mendrisio is a red herring. I don't mean that it was an easy or flat course. But it was held on a circuit and as such has a very different dynamic to a race like a regular classic. The route is more predictable as a rider only has to count the laps for reference. The climbs in Mendrisio didn't go over 440m and were no longer than 2km long. How does that compare to Lombardia where the shortest climb is longer than that and has a greater height gain? Most of the climbs are 8-10km long and over 700m. Cancellara is at home on short sharp stuff like Flanders and Mendrisio but I don't see him romping up these, especially as he's never ridden them before.
San Fedele d'Intelvi 780m 8km 9% average with 1km @ 14%
Ghisallo 784m 9km 10% average with extended sections of 12%
Sormano 1124m 9.6km 6% average sections of over 7%
San Fermo della Battaglia 2.5km almost 8% average
This is country suited to the likes of Cunego, Gilbert, Mottet & Hinault. I'll go as far as saying Cancellara will not win Lombardia. Ever.
Lanark said:Yet he finished second in Beijing, with a what, 8 km climb? And he won the Tour de Suisse, sure, not the most dificult edition, but those climbs certainly weren't easier than those in Lombardia. And don't forget the things he has shown in the Tour, like the 2008 stage to Alpe D'Huez. Cancellara has proven just as much on long climbs as Gilbert, probably more.
El Pistolero said:No he hasn't.
Beijing had two "climbs". The longer gained 338 and a half metres over its 12.4km giving an average gradient of 2.8%, the shorter was a fraction of the length at 350m and according to the official blurb, was a short but moderately steep climb.Lanark said:Yet he finished second in Beijing, with a what, 8 km climb? And he won the Tour de Suisse, sure, not the most dificult edition, but those climbs certainly weren't easier than those in Lombardia. And don't forget the things he has shown in the Tour, like the 2008 stage to Alpe D'Huez. Cancellara has proven just as much on long climbs as Gilbert, probably more.
Lanark said:Then give some examples of good to great performances on longer climbs by Gilbert comparable to those of Cancellara.
Have you even seen the Olympic race? It had an 8km climb of about 4.5%, the Ghisallo is an 8km climb of 5.5%, a little more difficult, but then again you don't have to do it 7 times. The Sormano is a difficult and long climb, I'll give you that. These is no San Fedele in Lombardia. You have to keep in mind of course that we haven't seen any real action on these climbs since 2006, a good Cancellara would have no trouble surviving the 30-40 man groups we see on the Ghisallo every year.ultimobici said:Beijing had two "climbs". The longer gained 338 and a half metres over its 12.4km giving an average gradient of 2.8%, the shorter was a fraction of the length at 350m and according to the official blurb, was a short but moderately steep climb.
Hardly mountainous.
The Ghisallo in comparison is almost twice the gradient, and both San Fedele and the Sormano are over double the gradient.
Couple that with heavy lakeside roads that make an escape very difficult to actually pull off not to mention weather that can be a little bit of a lottery and
Fabian is pretty much SOL unless the course change for 2011 has a more open run in to the finish.
The Olympic race route was described as having two climbs, one of 12.5km and the last 350m one. That said there was a false flat at the top of the 12.5km so that may account for the discrepancy.Lanark said:Have you even seen the Olympic race? It had an 8km climb of about 4.5%, the Ghisallo is an 8km climb of 5.5%, a little more difficult, but then again you don't have to do it 7 times. The Sormano is a difficult and long climb, I'll give you that. These is no San Fedele in Lombardia. You have to keep in mind of course that we haven't seen any real action on these climbs since 2006, a good Cancellara would have no trouble surviving the 30-40 man groups we see on the Ghisallo every year.
Again, we have seen Cancellara hang on, and even sprint for seconds on climbs like thisand this. More than comparable to anything Gilbert has shown on longer climbs (surviving in a 30-man pack).
El Pistolero said:That still doesn't change the fact that Gilbert can do well in MSR, LBL, RVV and Lombardia in one season. Cancellara can't.
The Hitch said:whats that got to do with anything. I was explaining nicely why Cancellara has time to win these races and doesnt have to do it next year.
Now you bring in this random point.
Great for Gilbert. Im sure his palmares will nicely read in 10 years (he is known for doing well in several monuments in a season)
Probably wont be as well aknowledged as he won Pr and RVV in the same year, or even he won 4 world tt championships.
Nobdody here is saying Gilbert is crap.
He can keep his a win 2 podiums and a top 10 in one season. I think he would trade in all of that, his AGR his, Giro di whatver and his 2 vuelta stages for simply, a win at Lbl or RVV. Dont you?
El Pistolero said:They're classics for a reason, you can't win them every year. Like how it took 5-6 tries for Cancellara to finally win RVV and he has many failed attempts at PR as well. Gilbert won a monument this year and last year. Gilbert can compete well in 4 monuments every season which increases his chance of winning one every season. Cancellara won 2 this year, but like Boonen, he won't do it every year as luck plays a too big role.
The Hitch said:He can keep his a win 2 podiums and a top 10 in one season. I think he would trade in all of that, his AGR his, Giro di whatver and his 2 vuelta stages for simply, a win at Lbl or RVV. Dont you?
Arnout said:When you're going to call the Giro di Lombardia Giro di whatever I have a hard time taking you serious anymore I don't see how that is less a race than either RvV or LBL.
And there are many that won LBL or RvV once. Great. But what makes Gilbert special is not the ability to win LBL or RvV, but the ability to win almost all classics. That means trading in one for the other will make him less special.
Possibly.The Hitch said:I think he would trade in all of that, his AGR his, Giro di whatver and his 2 vuelta stages for simply, a win at Lbl or RVV. Dont you?
I think Hitch was referring more to a Belgian trading in ANY win for a Ronde or Doyenne. Which I completely understand.Arnout said:When you're going to call the Giro di Lombardia Giro di whatever I have a hard time taking you serious anymore I don't see how that is less a race than either RvV or LBL.
And there are many that won LBL or RvV once. Great. But what makes Gilbert special is not the ability to win LBL or RvV, but the ability to win almost all classics. That means trading in one for the other will make him less special.
Not if he skips RVV and PR, and hes said words to that effect.ultimobici said:Possibly.
But, as El Pistolero said, luck plays a big part in all the classics including Lombardia.
Nibali lost out due to a crash on the Sormano, Scarponi to fluffing a gear change.
I can't see Cancellara trading his WC title chances for Lombardia. That's what he risks if he loses enough weight to be better able to challenge in a mountainous classic. Gilbert is already there in that terrain and just needs a little bit of luck in LBL/RVV/MSR.
It will be interesting to see what happens this season. Cancellara has to drop that extra muscle bulk at some point, trouble is when does he do it? If he's to challenge at Liege then his RVV & PR are not as sure to be defended. Then come the Tour he's less able to take the Prologue, and his TT title is at risk.
It's a very delicate balancing act he'll have to pull off, IMO.
The Hitch said:Not if he skips RVV and PR, and hes said words to that effect.
And forget the TDF prologues.
There is no TDF prologue in 2011 and in 2012 it happens to be in Liege, which
1 hes already won a tdf prologue in Liege - 2004, and
2 there is another race which starts and finishes in liege which Cancellara wants more.