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Neworld said:
That is a pretty broad statement given that until he won the Giro most people in BC have not heard of him.
I am sure you mean many of the racing community in BC believed he was doping. I think many in BC missed the 5 hour rides to port Renfrew in the rain too. You would also Know how Ryder at 16 was one of very few riders that could keep up to Roland or handle the volume of riding they did? I suppose your saw them as juniors killing riders at or near the pro level. Roland was strong enough to win Abitibi.
Now I did hear rumour and quiet talk that Roland crossed the line later in his career, ostensibly the year he won everything or maybe the year before, Seamus' high blood and Chris' positive certainly gave traction to the rumours but to know someone is doping I suppose you have to see it or have read a positive drug test. Until Ryder actually admitted it I had never heard he was doping. Now the fact that I was a Commissaire can certainly mean many people are not saying some things in from to me but a lot of MTB riders did not know me as an official, yet I never heard anyone say more than I wonder if...... at least with Ryder.
Mind you now that he has admitted he doped at a time covered by this group I see you can say anything you like and get traction for your stories.
What I have seen is both Ryder and Roland showed a talent higher than anyone of their peers. They were just a step higher especially as juniors. This was certainly before EPO.
Once EPO arrived, everyone I see had to face that daemon and it is more evident that most anyone at the top of their discipline were using it at some point of the season.
Master50 said:
I agree most BC-ers had never heard of him...and?
Yes
So you were a Commissaire and now wonder if that influenced a MTB from confiding in you that Ryder or other riders doped? Was that a question?
I never said Ryder nor Roland were not talented. Their talent and early use of dope, to excel even more, could have been mutually exclusive but they were in fact linked. Unless you are still officiating maybe you should start chatting up the older MTB scene and see if they know of Ryder and Roland's issues.
I don't like to think that they doped, but they did.
like the hometown Olympics, always get a spike, and not because of motivation for training. they dope more at home.
who can remember Hamilton world champs road that Igor Astarloa won? Remember who the MVP of that race was?
Just like Cancellara was the MVP of the worlds that Evans won in Swizterland. The best rider does not always win.
who can remember Hamilton world champs road that Igor Astarloa won? Remember who the MVP of that race was?
Just like Cancellara was the MVP of the worlds that Evans won in Swizterland. The best rider does not always win.
D-Queued said:
When are you going to face up to the real issue? The real issue is you called Clara Hughes a liar. You keep prevaricating, obfuscating and dodging the point. You have in effect said because Clara said in 2010 she did not think Barry would dope that she is lying. You say this in spite of the fact Barry publicly acknowledges he deceived his friends (one of whom was Clara) about his doping at USPS.
All you do is talk sanctimoniously about how you knew Ryder was doping way back when. Well so what! Man up. Deal with the real issue as to why I attacked your comment. Now that Ryder has confessed his doping what you knew way back when is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
PS Have you contacted Clara yet as I suggested and told her to her face she is a liar?
Race Radio said:
I think Clara's had a few over the years and in the different sports. I think there was a time when they all had the same one, but I cannot remember who. Yuri comes to mind, but he was Alison's coach and I am not sure if he worked with Clara at all (other than as national team coach).
RobbieCanuck said:
No, I have not.
I doubt she would take the call.
Why would she?
Should she have known Michael was doping?
Yes.
Was that statement false?
Yes.
Why did she make the statement?
Because someone or something forced her to publicly defend Michael.
She may not have known it was a lie, but it was. And she used her reputation to promote a lie.
Knowingly or not, she lied.
Do I believe that Michael's non-specific apology applied to her more than anyone, or everyone else?
No. Why do you insist that his statement did apply to her? Do you take me for a fool?
Dave.
Neworld said:
I have spoken to many of the people that trained and rode with them. I am retired as a commissaire for the last 2 seasons. I work in the same place as a couple of his compatriots and none claim they knew at the time. CS and SM don't get as much leeway as many adjusted their beliefs as they got into trouble. Roland? a lot of people say they think he was but no one says they know.
Master50 said:
Ok thank you.
Now, out of CS, RG, SM and Ryder...who is still making a lot of money and racing? Keep asking. I suspect you will have a hard time finding the unhappy underbelly of Ryder's past as you are a recent Comm. The truth is out there.
Master50 said:
I'm not calling out any teenager as dopers, but you start out by using one of the most worn out excuses used by dopers. RH clean or not at some later point in his life, this anecdote does not work any more.
As for the rest of it, there is EPO use down to amateur levels, so no one even needs to be at the top of their discipline. If an athlete is spending thousands of dollars on wheels, an oxygen vector program is a bargain.
D-Queued said:
Your logic is absurd. She should have known he was doping?
Based on her previous dealings with Barry she had no reason to think he was doping. She saw him as a good guy. Barry purposely deceived her and others about his doping. And then you have the gall to say Clara was lying in her defence of Barry in 2010. What are you some kind of mind reader who knows what is going on in Clara's head?
You have a very distorted understanding of what constitutes a lie. I lie occurs when you make a statement where you knowingly say something that is false. Check any dictionary. The Oxford English for example says a lie is "an intentionally false statement" Otherwise it is not a lie.
So she learns in October 2012 that Barry lied about his doping and that he deliberately deceived his friends including Clara, that she must have been lying in 2010 because she should have known he was deceiving his friends including her?
You are a fool with logic like that! Your rationalization of your words is ridiculous. You think because you "knew" everyone on USPS was doping as at 2010, everyone else should have "known" it as well. What abject arrogance. What hubris. What egomania.
A lot of people strongly suspected USPS was doping but it was all rumour, conjecture and speculation. It was not until Hamilton went on CBS in 2012 and the affidavit evidence came out in 2012 in the reasoned decision that people really knew what went on.
You really are a piece of work when you cannot admit you have falsely accused Clara of lying.
RobbieCanuck said:
Maybe you should start a Clara Hughes thread where people like you can enjoy discussing whether or not she has doped. This thread is about Barry.
Netserk said:Are you sure it's not about Hesjedal?
I'm not sure about anything! I'd just like the insults to stop.
RobbieCanuck said:
Hi Berzin,
I hope that this post is, in fact, on topic as it does pertain to Barry, his USPS/Disco experience, that team's doping notariety, and Barry's purported 'deception'.
If you find this out of bounds in any way, please feel free to delete.
Hi Robbie,
Arrogance? Hubris? Egomania?
Nice rant.
Nobody really knew about doping on USPS until Hamilton? Nobody???
Nice revisionism.
No Actovegin? No SCA Arbitration? No Frankie admission? No Gendarmes investigation? No Steve Swart? No Emma? No Walsh book(s)? No Triple Crown payola? No Betsy? No Damien Ressiot? No Greg LeMond? No Stephanie McIlvain? No Vrijman report? No Floyd? No USOC implications? No bus pulling over to the side of the road? No Ferrari and no orange juice? No Androgen in the medicine cabinet? No cortizone post-dated TUE? No black list?
That is more than a decades worth of ongoing doping scandal surround Lance and Motorola/USPS/Disco/Astana/Radio Shack.
How could you suggest that nobody really knew? Are you joking? Did you read Betsy's post earlier in this thread?
Yes, I believe that Clara was lying. Emphasis on 'I' and 'believe'.
Minimally, as a long-time, top performer in a sport she castigated as "dirty" she had strong reason to be suspicious and more than overstated herself whether Barry deceived her or not.
I find it impossible to believe that anyone with the kind of experience that Clara has had could be so blind to the possibility of doping within one of the worst offending teams ever.
But, those are my beliefs. Yours clearly differ.
I am ok with that. Why aren't you? Why the overbearing personal attack?
Why are you so threatened?
Do you think my comments could somehow hurt Clara? Isn't she unique in her multi-sport accomplishments? Wasn't she an incredibly tough competitor? I cannot imagine that she would even bat an eyelash over my opinion. But, I could be wrong.
You accused me of Omerta earlier (and I'm ok with that... subject of a future post). Wouldn't the kind of thing that Clara did also be consistent with omerta?
Why did she publicly defend Michael?
Dave.
On the subject of omerta as it pertains to my knowledge on both Ryder and Barry.
Recently another poster forwarded a personal message that I had sent them back in 2010. Not only is this four years ago, but the timeline also roughly coincides with the defense by Clara Hughes of Michael Barry.
Here is an excerpt from that inbox conversation:
Thus, yes, I readily admit to have been a part of omerta with respect to Ryder. And, I was concerned about this at least four years ago.
While I will not quote the other party in that private inbox dialog from four years ago, it is noteworthy that they felt Ryder was innocent while believing Barry was guilty as can be gleaned from my quoted comments.
We were both right about who was doping. We were both wrong about who wasn't. Most importantly, they were all guilty.
Dave.
Recently another poster forwarded a personal message that I had sent them back in 2010. Not only is this four years ago, but the timeline also roughly coincides with the defense by Clara Hughes of Michael Barry.
Here is an excerpt from that inbox conversation:
Thus, yes, I readily admit to have been a part of omerta with respect to Ryder. And, I was concerned about this at least four years ago.
While I will not quote the other party in that private inbox dialog from four years ago, it is noteworthy that they felt Ryder was innocent while believing Barry was guilty as can be gleaned from my quoted comments.
We were both right about who was doping. We were both wrong about who wasn't. Most importantly, they were all guilty.
Dave.
Great posts, Dave.
I rarely post here anymore, but wanted to commend you on talking about your own part in omertà. Thank you.
I rarely post here anymore, but wanted to commend you on talking about your own part in omertà. Thank you.
MarkvW said:
Fair enough. That is a criticism I cannot bear.
I admit that I overspoke. I don't know if Clara was lying.
What she said, of course, was blatantly and remarkably untrue. Hopefully there is no controversy over that.
In my meager defense, first it should be obvious that I cannot know for certain if Clara was lying. Second, I think enough of Clara that I expect she should have known better and that she should have had some concern about how truthful her statements were.
What we seem to have learned from doping in this sport is that you simply cannot trust anyone.
Dave.
...it sure sucks !
I have known a number of people who have walked away from this sport disgusted at what they have seen. I do think you can trust people, but I think you have to be very careful about the people you do trust. There are a lot of conflicting interests and certain facts of life have to be accepted by those who chose to stay in the sport.
I find it inconceivable that an athlete, who has been around elite cycling and speed skating as long as Clara has, would not have come to fully appreciate how widespread the use of PEDs is and how it distorts the two sports.
I find it inconceivable that she would not have followed the Lance US Postal saga and from 2004/05 and not fully understood that the story was a pyramid of deception sustained by bullying.
Given the trend across all strata of society that good people tend to stick around good people and bad people find bad people, I find it totally inconceivable, given my first two points, that Clara would not be able to work out that Michael and Dede were not a pair of lying POS.
If her career had been conducted clean, she would hate with a passion, every one who stole from her. Given that stance, at the very least, she would have enough evidence to stay silent on the matter of Barry. By 2010 only a complete donkey thought Floyd was lying and that Dede and Barry were not parked up at Lance's ranch, by the way they sang a couple of their own verses as well as belting out the chorus each time.
As it was, Clara did not stay silent but backed Barry up when he was under pressure. It is a smoking gun every bit as much as the fact that Wiggins suddenly pukes up on the morning he finds out that Hayles trips the 50% heamatocrit level.
As has been said elsewhere, Lance, is a most unlikeable character and so making the step to thinking he is a doper is not too tough a call, for all but the fanboys. Barry is a big call for a lot of people, a totally different case.
Clara was on the Saturn rosta with Dede from 1995 to 2000 with Rene Wenzel and Tuetenberg. Wenzel doped minors like Strock Kaiter & Hincapie. I put into google "clara dede saturn" and my first option was this
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/features/?id=2003/saturnfarewell
and the first person Clara bigs-up is Wenzel.
Sadly, I think Clara is is that group with Barry. It sucks, it really does.
I have known a number of people who have walked away from this sport disgusted at what they have seen. I do think you can trust people, but I think you have to be very careful about the people you do trust. There are a lot of conflicting interests and certain facts of life have to be accepted by those who chose to stay in the sport.
I find it inconceivable that an athlete, who has been around elite cycling and speed skating as long as Clara has, would not have come to fully appreciate how widespread the use of PEDs is and how it distorts the two sports.
I find it inconceivable that she would not have followed the Lance US Postal saga and from 2004/05 and not fully understood that the story was a pyramid of deception sustained by bullying.
Given the trend across all strata of society that good people tend to stick around good people and bad people find bad people, I find it totally inconceivable, given my first two points, that Clara would not be able to work out that Michael and Dede were not a pair of lying POS.
If her career had been conducted clean, she would hate with a passion, every one who stole from her. Given that stance, at the very least, she would have enough evidence to stay silent on the matter of Barry. By 2010 only a complete donkey thought Floyd was lying and that Dede and Barry were not parked up at Lance's ranch, by the way they sang a couple of their own verses as well as belting out the chorus each time.
As it was, Clara did not stay silent but backed Barry up when he was under pressure. It is a smoking gun every bit as much as the fact that Wiggins suddenly pukes up on the morning he finds out that Hayles trips the 50% heamatocrit level.
As has been said elsewhere, Lance, is a most unlikeable character and so making the step to thinking he is a doper is not too tough a call, for all but the fanboys. Barry is a big call for a lot of people, a totally different case.
Clara was on the Saturn rosta with Dede from 1995 to 2000 with Rene Wenzel and Tuetenberg. Wenzel doped minors like Strock Kaiter & Hincapie. I put into google "clara dede saturn" and my first option was this
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/features/?id=2003/saturnfarewell
and the first person Clara bigs-up is Wenzel.
Sadly, I think Clara is is that group with Barry. It sucks, it really does.
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