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- Jun 14, 2010
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alanshearer said:
The jaw comment wasn't serious, guy just thought he was being funny.
But anyway, all other sports on their forums when cycling comes up, treat it as the only sport in the world that has a doping problem. Football forums, swimming forums, whatever always snark that all cyclists dope, it's not worth watching for that reason.
I think cycling forums have thus earnt the right to speculate on the other sports. Certainly with all the information there is out there about doping, there is good reason to believe top athletes in swimming are heavily reliant on peds.
And Phelps wasn't just at the top. He won 8 gold medals in one games, 6 solo which is an unrivalled sporting achievement because you are not just beating what's in front of you, but going in tired against guys with far lighter programmes and still beating them. Towards the end he had been in the pool for a week, heats, semis, finals, day after day, going up against fully rested swimmers or partially rested one's and still wooping their ***.
- Jun 16, 2010
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You might want to check out this information about how Phelps has trained since he started swimming and as a result won tons of gold medals. No doping here, just mucho talent.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...ood-habits-can-win-gold-medals/article549051/
You might also want to recall the slow start he had at the 2012 Olympics hardly indicative of doping. This thread is a non starter!
RobbieCanuck said:
he wasn't accusing Phelps. I believe what he was saying is that given the prevalence of doping in professional sports as a whole and seeing someone dominate a sport in the way Phelps has, it's natural for there to be a level of skepticism. you might find that unfair, but blame past doping transgressions by athletes for leading people to think maybe a performance is too good to be true.
I don't see how Phelps having great habits and work ethic is some sort of indicator that he isn't doping. Swimmers train their butts off. Just as cyclists do. doesn't make them innocent. and the only reason Phelps seemed to get off to a bad start in 2012 was because his first event was 400 IM. an event he wasn't even planning on swimming or spent much time training for post-2008.
- Jun 14, 2010
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RobbieCanuck said:
Just like Contador eh
BTW the clinic should have some sort of iq test people have to pass before entering it.
The question should be :
Question : Do you think doping can help with training.
Answer options should be :
A) YES: I have read up on doping history and am aware of the fact that starting with the East Germans every single major doping ring ever busted was heavily training based with some athletes never even doping for the olympics, but getting all their advantage from training based doping.
B) NO: I have never read up a single thing on doping and have no clue how doping works but I assume drugs which enhance performance could not possibly have any impact on physical exercise activities like training. Only lazy people would dope and doping techniques like blood doping which increases hematocrit could not have an effect on someone unless they are lazy and sit on the sofa all day. Therefore any athlete who is shown to train or who tells a camera that he trains hard, is scientifically proven to be clean.
Anyone who answers no should be redirected from the forum to some website where their unwillingness to educate themselves about the subject they want to discuss wont pollute discussions.
- Jul 21, 2012
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Didnt read the entire thread but.. I would say that Phelps being clean would be as miraculous as say.. Bolt being clean. or Froome.
- Dec 7, 2010
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......................The Hitch said:Anyone who answers no should be redirected to the Professional Road Racing sub forum.
- Jun 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:Just like Contador eh
BTW the clinic should have some sort of iq test people have to pass before entering it.
The question should be :
Question : Do you think doping can help with training.
Answer options should be :
A) YES: I have read up on doping history and am aware of the fact that starting with the East Germans every single major doping ring ever busted was heavily training based with some athletes never even doping for the olympics, but getting all their advantage from training based doping.
B) NO: I have never read up a single thing on doping and have no clue how doping works but I assume drugs which enhance performance could not possibly have any impact on physical exercise activities like training. Only lazy people would dope and doping techniques like blood doping which increases hematocrit could not have an effect on someone unless they are lazy and sit on the sofa all day. Therefore any athlete who is shown to train or who tells a camera that he trains hard, is scientifically proven to be clean.
Anyone who answers no should be redirected from the forum to some website where their unwillingness to educate themselves about the subject they want to discuss wont pollute discussions.
1. No not just like Contador. Contador had a positive, Phelps have never even been mentioned as suspicious until this thread
2. I have noticed whenever you don't have any kind of evidence based argument you simply resorts to insults for e.g. IQ Whenever you do that I know you have no powder in your gun.
3. Yes I agree there should be an IQ test. There is a direct inverse correlation between posters over 3000 and IQs under 90. That should work. How many posts do you have.
- Jun 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:Just like Contador eh
BTW the clinic should have some sort of iq test people have to pass before entering it.
The question should be :
Question : Do you think doping can help with training.
Answer options should be :
A) YES: I have read up on doping history and am aware of the fact that starting with the East Germans every single major doping ring ever busted was heavily training based with some athletes never even doping for the olympics, but getting all their advantage from training based doping.
B) NO: I have never read up a single thing on doping and have no clue how doping works but I assume drugs which enhance performance could not possibly have any impact on physical exercise activities like training. Only lazy people would dope and doping techniques like blood doping which increases hematocrit could not have an effect on someone unless they are lazy and sit on the sofa all day. Therefore any athlete who is shown to train or who tells a camera that he trains hard, is scientifically proven to be clean.
Anyone who answers no should be redirected from the forum to some website where their unwillingness to educate themselves about the subject they want to discuss wont pollute discussions.
1. No not like Contador. As you know Contador has had a positive and is suspected of being a rampant doper by Contador hating cynics in the Clinic. There has never been any suggestion Phelps doped until this dippy thread. As is typical for you, you are mixing apples and oranges. The Contador issues are totally different than the Phelps non-issues.
2. The clinic does have an IQ test. It is inversely proportional to IQs at 90 and under with the more posts that are made here. What is it again about 20,000 posts?
3. "Do you think doping can help with training?" Of course it can but what evidence other than conjecture, speculation and libel do you have that Phelps has used drugs in training. You obviously did not read the article I referenced very thoroughly. That isn't even the topic of this thread. A good way to divert attention from a bad argument in the Clinic is to get off topic and you have the experience.
4. Any relationship between the East German doping program and Phelps is absurd. This is the most scurrilous and brain dead argument I have ever seen you make. I assume you dream of USOC gremlins hiding in Phelps training pool with patches and needles do you. Psychiatrists refer to this behaviour as paranoia.
5. Your diatribe about only lazy people doping is so fragmented it makes no sense. The answer is Armstrong trained his buttski off and doped. You cannot dope a mule to win the Kentucky derby. If you have read as much about doping as you claim you would know that. By the way what does this irrational comment have to do with the thread or are you just picking a fight, trolling, baiting or sneering all four?
Hitch you are slipping in your old age. Are you still anonymous? Are you really a journalist? Just who are you?
- Jul 27, 2010
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Swimmers have traditionally had a very early age peak, in their early 20s. One thing in Phelps’ favor is that, so far, he has not shown evidence of extending his peak later. His times in the 2012 Olympics were all slower than in the same races he swam in the 2008 Olympics. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, he has not swum a personal best in any event since the 2009 Worlds, when he was 24 (though after that his training program was downgraded considerably). That doesn’t prove he hasn’t doped, but at least it suggests that when he was faced with fading power in 2012, he didn’t ramp up a doping program that he might or might not have been on before. We know from other sports, such as Major League Baseball, that with the help of PEDS players can actually perform better in their declining years than they did in their prime.
Ryan Lochte is a little more suspicious, in that he has had some personal bests in his late 20s, in the 2011 and 2013 Worlds and the 2012 Olympics (he turned 28 at those Olympics, and is actually a little older than Phelps). If either of these guys records times anywhere close to their personal bests at the Olympics (or trials, as they might possibly not get any further) in 2016, then I would be very suspicious.
It’s extremely difficult to remain competitive in swimming in your 30s, as both of these guys are attempting to do. There’s a double whammy involved. Not only have you declined physically considerably by then, but because of the very rapid pace at which WRs continue to be broken, even maintaining the performance you put out when you were younger is not sufficient. You really have to be faster than you were ten years ago, because in those ten years the competition has become faster. Brendan Hansen made the 2012 Olympic team when he was past 30, but he clearly was not the swimmer he was when he was younger. Comeback attempts by Mark Spitz and Janet Evans in their 40s failed miserably. Dara Torres is the big exception, she remained world class in her 40s—in a sprint event, no less, where the effect of aging should be greater—and as I have discussed here before, I think she is extremely suspicious. For a swimmer to be world class in her 40s is even more improbable than Jeannie Longo winning national titles in her 50s, and we all know how Longo accomplished that.
Ryan Lochte is a little more suspicious, in that he has had some personal bests in his late 20s, in the 2011 and 2013 Worlds and the 2012 Olympics (he turned 28 at those Olympics, and is actually a little older than Phelps). If either of these guys records times anywhere close to their personal bests at the Olympics (or trials, as they might possibly not get any further) in 2016, then I would be very suspicious.
It’s extremely difficult to remain competitive in swimming in your 30s, as both of these guys are attempting to do. There’s a double whammy involved. Not only have you declined physically considerably by then, but because of the very rapid pace at which WRs continue to be broken, even maintaining the performance you put out when you were younger is not sufficient. You really have to be faster than you were ten years ago, because in those ten years the competition has become faster. Brendan Hansen made the 2012 Olympic team when he was past 30, but he clearly was not the swimmer he was when he was younger. Comeback attempts by Mark Spitz and Janet Evans in their 40s failed miserably. Dara Torres is the big exception, she remained world class in her 40s—in a sprint event, no less, where the effect of aging should be greater—and as I have discussed here before, I think she is extremely suspicious. For a swimmer to be world class in her 40s is even more improbable than Jeannie Longo winning national titles in her 50s, and we all know how Longo accomplished that.
Merckx index said:
Time and tide waits for no man, but Janet Evans' comeback was successful in a different way...
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/30/sports/la-sp-0701-oly-swim-janet-evans-20120701
Spitz beat Rowdy Gaines (LA 100m freestyle gold) in a sprint race in 1984 aged 34, and Phelps is a mere youngster in comparison!
blackcat said:
I wasn't commenting on whether Phelps dopes. I assume that if he did before, he will again!
At his age, I think motivation will be the key. There's no obvious reason why at his age he should definitely not be physically capable of performing.
- Dec 7, 2010
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Hear that swooshing sound?RobbieCanuck said:
Still pursuing you journalist delusions?RobbieCanuck said:
Says "Mr. Canuck."RobbieCanuck said:
- Aug 31, 2012
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Looks like Robbie's argument, slightly paraphrased, is "but he never even tested positive so why is there a thread on this Great American Swimming Legend"?"
Reasonable people ought not consider it unlikely that phelps dopes because the rewards of doping are great, the chances of being caught (except perhaps in cycling!) are slim, especially during training, because a hell of a lot of people in pro sports use peds, and importantly, because phelps was so dominant.
Don't worry though, you can still believe he's a really talented swimmer.
Reasonable people ought not consider it unlikely that phelps dopes because the rewards of doping are great, the chances of being caught (except perhaps in cycling!) are slim, especially during training, because a hell of a lot of people in pro sports use peds, and importantly, because phelps was so dominant.
Don't worry though, you can still believe he's a really talented swimmer.
The Hitch said:
My point wasn't that Phelps is beyond suspicion. My point wasn't even that there's anything wrong with the speculation.
My point, rather, was that the original post of this thread was not speculating. It was an accusation. It implied that Phelps doping was a foregone conclusion. The only speculation in the OP was they type and level of doping Phelps was doing in his comeback.
I then pointed out the irony of a moderator of these boards telling others to shut up and go elsewhere when they complain about such a blatant accusation, while this board administration previosly went above and beyond to protect the identity of an athlete that had actually been found guilty of a doping offense. Sure, the board administration was bowing to half-assed legal threats by a two bit lawyer. But if you're going to cave to such pressure, then maybe you should be a little more understanding to others' complaints.
- Jun 14, 2010
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SeriousSam said:
Funny thing with Robbie is he doesn't even believe that because Contador has tested positive and he still defends him.
Robby's argument is, based particularly on that post from 2 weeks ago where he said that he knows Messi, Bolt, Crosby, Phelps, Brady and some others, are all 100% clean because of how good they are is more like : "but he has been dominating his sport so that means he is extremely talented, and if he is extremely talented, why would he dope?"
Fair enough.alanshearer said:
- Dec 7, 2010
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alanshearer said:
Um, not sure what or who you're referring to by "board administration," but the folks that made the legal call regarding the matter of David Kemp didn't include Afrank and his/her associates on the mod team.
- Jun 16, 2010
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SeriousSam said:
Here is the problem with the philosophy that dominates the Clinic. Many are unable to understand or accept genetics, or hard work to maximize the genetics one has been given. Hordes of scientific studies prove practice increases skill level. It is a simple fact some humans are more physically skilled at athletics than others. Some athletes are more mentally skilled at athletics than others.
Read Michael Walsh's book Moneyball about Billy Beane or watch Kevin Durant play basketball.
Clinicians would deny genetics. They misunderstand the mental side of sport. They deny the athletic benefits of practice, routine, perseverance, the will to win etc. and lump us all into one big pot and the winner is s/he who dopes the most wins.That is simply being naïve, disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.
I played sport at a high national level. I was good, not great. But I played against some really great athletes who could continuously compete and win without doping. They simply did not have to.
Michael Jordan doping? You have to be seriously delusional to think he had to. Same with Phelps the best combination of genetics, physiological attributes and the practice of routine that has ever existed in swimming. Ergo - results.
The clinician mantra is but no, we can't let that happen, it has to be due to doping. So a thread like this one is started by some naïve poster who for no other reason than to show he is on board with the cynical mantra, defames Phelps and his doctor. It is called the herding instinct. It is known as group think. It permeates these pages so when other posters come along and challenge this general misguided group think, they are criticized as being stupid, dumb, imbeciles, "how could you not believe Froome is doping, it is so obvious" etc. Well that kind of thinking is just dumb, illogical and irrational.
Froome may be doping and I understand the sceptics who say he is and I understand their arguments but it is all just speculation. Even Afrank acknowledges this when he said, "...Is it speculation, sure. But speculation makes up 90% of the clinic and much of the rest of the forum."
Too many on here have been brainwashed through classical conditioning into thinking every great athlete dopes. That is just absurd. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but lets quit evangelizing about how right they are as Hitch does in the Sky thread at post #26879, where he says "... we are right."
Now the real issue - is Hitch a noun or a verb?
^one of the most inane arguments i've ever read on this site.
why is it delusional to believe that it would be possible for Michael Jordan to have doped? I don't think he did, but given the lack of testing involved in the NBA, especially in the 90s, it's certainly not delusional to think it could've happened. no one is arguing that genetics isn't a factor. doping or not, Michael Phelps is a great swimmer. He has the tools, work ethic, etc. That doesn't mean he didn't dope to capitalize even more on his natural gifts. having great genes hasn't stopped other great genetic freaks from doping. Barry Bonds was a great hitter before he hooked up with Balco. Usain Bolt was a great junior runner. can keep going...
why is it delusional to believe that it would be possible for Michael Jordan to have doped? I don't think he did, but given the lack of testing involved in the NBA, especially in the 90s, it's certainly not delusional to think it could've happened. no one is arguing that genetics isn't a factor. doping or not, Michael Phelps is a great swimmer. He has the tools, work ethic, etc. That doesn't mean he didn't dope to capitalize even more on his natural gifts. having great genes hasn't stopped other great genetic freaks from doping. Barry Bonds was a great hitter before he hooked up with Balco. Usain Bolt was a great junior runner. can keep going...
- Jun 14, 2010
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RobbieCanuck said:
You really need to stop reading things selectively. It's one of your bigger problems.
Here is the actual sentence.
Saying we are right " so long as" gives the sentence pretty much the opposite meaning of what you tried to attribute it.The Hitch said:
As for saying clinicians deny genetics and ignore mental aspects of sport, have you actually ever seen any posts on which you base that on or are you making it up because you run out of arguments?
- Mar 13, 2009
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jordan, greatest basketball ever.fuzzydunlop3 said:
but if you dont dope, you have trap muscles like kevin durant and kareem abdul jabaar.
the most difficult muscles to grow into the armstrong tight end cortisone neck.
ok, so larry johnson, anthony mason, and ron artest, might have obvious roided phyq\suiques... but you need to compare like to like. ceteris paribus.
check the physiques of players in the 80s and 70s.
ofcourse, i hear the refrain, nutrition and free weights and lifting everyday. I know those elements, they are built into my position as premises. They have been lifting weights for over 3 decades in pro team sport, it was not just william refridgerator perry who did to get to 300lbs.
game theory. red queen effect. jumping on the treadmill to stay standing still.
- Mar 13, 2009
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you can get a clean physique with traps bigger than jordan, and prolly even mason artest and LJ. but you need to be a borderline clean pro bodybuilder in the gym everyday and hitting high caloric surplus.
those bballers never were into caloric surplus to get the william refrigerator perry size innit
those bballers never were into caloric surplus to get the william refrigerator perry size innit
- Jun 16, 2010
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It is implied in every comment you make about a naturally skilled rider like Contador. He wins a stage or a race or a GT and you and tons of other cynics always say he won because he is doped. You deny and minimize his natural talents which are obviously based on genetics, mental toughness and hard work.
It is your constant mantra about Contador, Froome, Wiggins and so on. It is tiresome, boring, dogmatic and yesterday's news. As Oscar Wilde says "A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing."
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