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Milan - San Remo 2018

Page 27 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

Whi will win 2018 Milan - San Remo?

  • Peter Sagan

    Votes: 56 40.9%
  • Michal Kwiatkowski

    Votes: 13 9.5%
  • Alexander Kristoff

    Votes: 11 8.0%
  • Elia Viviani

    Votes: 12 8.8%
  • Arnaud Démare

    Votes: 7 5.1%
  • Philippe Gilbert

    Votes: 5 3.6%
  • Greg Van Avermaet

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Dylan Groenewegen

    Votes: 6 4.4%
  • John Degenkolb

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 26 19.0%

  • Total voters
    137
Jul 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

Hugo Koblet said:
El Pistolero said:
huge said:
My dear friend, those were retoric questions that did not need an answer.

How is Gilbert palmares varied? Tell me about all the GT Gilbert has won? Or the many one week stage races he has won perhaps?
Comparing Gilbert's and Nibali's palmares is meaningless.
Gilbert's palmares is not varied at all. But he still remains one of the greatest Classics rider of all times.

Look at my post above instead of asking redundant questions.

There's more to cycling than stage races, but to answer your question he won Paris–Corrèze, the Tour of Belgium, Ster ZLM Toer (3 times), Tour of Beijing and the Driedaagse de Panne. He was also second in the Eneco Tour in 2011.

The 3 GTs are also a lot more alike than the 5 Monuments. It's far easier to win all 3 GTs than it is to win all the Monuments (or even just 3 of them).
How did you come to this conclusion? There are 25 riders who have won at least three different monuments (24 if we discount Pélissier as his wins were before the Vuelta was raced the first time) and six riders who have won all three GT's.

How many of them won at least 3 different Monuments in the modern era of cycling?

Also keep in mind that the Vuelta wasn't a very important race for much of its history (it wasn't even 3 weeks long until 1986) and it had a lot of flat stages. How do you think Freddy Maertens won the Vuelta alongside 13 stages?

The Vuelta also used to take place even before the Giro until the '90s. This meant that a lot of good riders skipped the Vuelta in favor of the Belgian classics.

If you can win the Tour you can also win all the Grand Tours if you want to make that a goal. Armstrong didn't care at all for example, but he could've certainly done it if he wanted to.

I'm not talking about the past, but the present. We're in the Era of Specialization sadly.
 
Yesterday's race had a great finish and an epic win by Nibali, but not much happende before Poggio. Am I the only one who hopes RCS tries a route change next year to make it a bit more dynamic? Adding Le Manie again and perhaps replacing Cipressa with Pompeiana.....
 
That's why in history we only have 6 riders that have won all 3 GTs...

In a way I agree that winning all 5 monuments might be more difficult. But that's just because of the unpredictability of one day races. While you have 3/4 riders with a serious shot at winning a GT, you usually have many more riders that can pull the rabbit off the hat in a one day race. Not to mention the fact that in a one day race anything goes wrong, and you are out of contention, while in a GT there is always time to recover.

That said, once again we are comparing apples and oranges. Meaningless.
 
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Re:

OlavEH said:
Yesterday's race had a great finish and an epic win by Nibali, but not much happende before Poggio. Am I the only one who hopes RCS tries a route change next year to make it a bit more dynamic? Adding Le Manie again and perhaps replacing Cipressa with Pompeiana.....

I think the route is fine now if someone like Nibali can win on it... It's the one classic where we have a battle between sprinters, punchers and now even a GT rider. The race has its own identity because of that.

Nothing happening before the Poggio just builds excitement for an explosive finale.

Pompeiana would be a bit too much I think, this would turn it into another hilly classic, of which we already have enough races.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
OlavEH said:
Yesterday's race had a great finish and an epic win by Nibali, but not much happende before Poggio. Am I the only one who hopes RCS tries a route change next year to make it a bit more dynamic? Adding Le Manie again and perhaps replacing Cipressa with Pompeiana.....

I think the route is fine now if someone like Nibali can win on it... It's the one classic where we have a battle between sprinters, punchers and now even a GT rider. The race has its own identity because of that.

Nothing happening before the Poggio just builds excitement for an explosive finale.

Pompeiana would be a bit too much I think, this would turn it into another hilly classic, of which we already have enough races.

The problem is that Cipressa is more or less useless, and nothing relevant happens before Poggio. Cipressa is just not steep enough to encourage attacks, and it's too much flat (9km) between Cipressa and Poggio.

And I'm not talking about having all three of Cipressa, Pompeiana and Poggio, just replacing Cipressa. Pompeiana is steeper (has a 500m section of 10 %) and there is only 4,5 km of flat between Pompeiana and Poggio. It would make it much more likely to suceed with an attack before Poggio.
 
Re: Re:

OlavEH said:
El Pistolero said:
OlavEH said:
Yesterday's race had a great finish and an epic win by Nibali, but not much happende before Poggio. Am I the only one who hopes RCS tries a route change next year to make it a bit more dynamic? Adding Le Manie again and perhaps replacing Cipressa with Pompeiana.....

I think the route is fine now if someone like Nibali can win on it... It's the one classic where we have a battle between sprinters, punchers and now even a GT rider. The race has its own identity because of that.

Nothing happening before the Poggio just builds excitement for an explosive finale.

Pompeiana would be a bit too much I think, this would turn it into another hilly classic, of which we already have enough races.

The problem is that Cipressa is more or less useless, and nothing relevant happens before Poggio. Cipressa is just not steep enough to encourage attacks, and it's too much flat (9km) between Cipressa and Poggio. Pompeiana is steeper (has a 500m section of 10 %) and there is only 4,5 km of flat between Pompeiana and Poggio. It would make it much more likely to suceed with an attack before Poggio.

Pompeiana/Poggio would eliminate every rider without hilly credentials after such a long race.

It takes away the identity of MSR.

Are there any stage races that could go there besides the Giro?
 
Re: Re:

OlavEH said:
El Pistolero said:
OlavEH said:
Yesterday's race had a great finish and an epic win by Nibali, but not much happende before Poggio. Am I the only one who hopes RCS tries a route change next year to make it a bit more dynamic? Adding Le Manie again and perhaps replacing Cipressa with Pompeiana.....

I think the route is fine now if someone like Nibali can win on it... It's the one classic where we have a battle between sprinters, punchers and now even a GT rider. The race has its own identity because of that.

Nothing happening before the Poggio just builds excitement for an explosive finale.

Pompeiana would be a bit too much I think, this would turn it into another hilly classic, of which we already have enough races.

The problem is that Cipressa is more or less useless, and nothing relevant happens before Poggio. Cipressa is just not steep enough to encourage attacks, and it's too much flat (9km) between Cipressa and Poggio.

And I'm not talking about having all three of Cipressa, Pompeiana and Poggio, just replacing Cipressa. Pompeiana is steeper (has a 500m section of 10 %) and there is only 4,5 km of flat between Pompeiana and Poggio. It would make it much more likely to suceed with an attack before Poggio.
I prefer Le Manie over Pompeiana. Le Manie let's the finale of the race start earlier without shifting the advantage from sprinters to puncheurs too much
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
Pompeiana/Poggio would eliminate every rider without hilly credentials after such a long race.

It takes away the identity of MSR.

Are there any stage races that could go there besides the Giro?

Aren't you exaggerating a bit now? Pompeiana is a bit shorter than Cipressa, but somewhat steeper (5 % vs 4 %). Would this eliminate all the non-hilly riders?
 
Re: Re:

OlavEH said:
Red Rick said:
Pompeiana/Poggio would eliminate every rider without hilly credentials after such a long race.

It takes away the identity of MSR.

Are there any stage races that could go there besides the Giro?

Aren't you exaggerating a bit now? Pompeiana is a bit shorter than Cipressa, but somewhat steeper (5 % vs 4 %). Would this eliminate all the non-hilly riders?
Because it's steeper and higher. And there's less recovery time. Imagine climbing for 7/8 minutes, then hitting the Cauberg. Gaps by an attack on the Pompeiana are gonna be pretty big and if you make it bag to the peloton you immediately hit the Poggio without any domestiques. Good luck with that.

Lastly, I don't know what the foot of the Pompeiana looks like, but the fight for position would be the craziest in any classic.
 
Re: Re:

Gigs_98 said:
Blanco said:
Tonton said:
El Pistolero said:
Dekker_Tifosi said:
Nibali wasn't even a poll option. We totally failed again.

What a rider man, Lombardia x2, all GT's, San Remo and 2nd in LBL. There is nobody as complete.

Gilbert imo, but that's pretty much it.
Not Gilbert...zero GT credentials. Only Valverde. Nibali is clearly above Don Alejandro on the GT side, and with this win, we can argue that he's just as good in one-day races.

5x FW, 2x San Sebastian and 6x WC medals screams he's not as good.
This is possibly the most important point of Valverde's one day race palmares. Many medals, but one color is missing. Cycling has always been a sport which is about winning. 2nd and 3rd places are nice, but it's not like a win is worth twice as much as a 2nd place, it's rather worth ten times as much. Take someone like Tom Boonen for example. He has a great palmares and in his last full season won a bronze medal in the WC RR. Still after his retirement I haven't heard one single person mentioning that medal, because a third place is a side note when you have such a great palmares.
The only reason why Valverde's endless podiums get mentioned so often is because he has never won that race. As soon as Valverde gets to wear the rainbow stripes the fact that he was on the podium of the WC often before suddenly becomes a side note and would never be used again in palmares comparisons. For the same reason Nibali would be the more successful rider in world championships if he wins it this year.

Disagree on everything here.
Win is worth 10 times as much as a 2nd place :eek: What a load of crap! Of course the win is most important, by far. But 10 times is science-fiction :rolleyes: Podium spots worth in every sport, so I don't see why wouldn't they worth in cycling. That's a fan's point of view. To a sportsman it means a lot to end up on a podium, it's a very good result.
And the reason why Valverde's podiums at WC get mentioned so often is because it is a bloody all-time record!
And no, one gold medal wouldn't surpass or even equal that record. He would need a couple of them...
 
Re: Re:

Gigs_98 said:
I prefer Le Manie over Pompeiana. Le Manie let's the finale of the race start earlier without shifting the advantage from sprinters to puncheurs too much

Yep, Le Manie would also be an option. Right now I see 4 alternative routes based on the routes and rumours the last few years:

Alt 1: Cipressa, Poggio
Alt 2: Pompeiana, Poggio
Alt 3: Le Manie, Cipressa, Poggio
Alt 4: Le Manie, Pompeiana, Poggio,
Alt 5: Le Manie, Cipressa, Pompeiana, Poggio

I think alt 1 like the last couple of years are too easy, but can also agree that alt 5 is too hard. But as I consider Cipressa to be more or less a waste and impossible to use as a point for attack, I would like them to try alt 2 or 4 for a couple of editions, just to see what happens. Right now it's just about the same every year. An attack the last 2 kms of Poggio, and a chase the last 2 kms up Via Roma. It would be nice to create a possibility for another race scenario.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
Because it's steeper and higher. And there's less recovery time. Imagine climbing for 7/8 minutes, then hitting the Cauberg. Gaps by an attack on the Pompeiana are gonna be pretty big and if you make it bag to the peloton you immediately hit the Poggio without any domestiques. Good luck with that.

Lastly, I don't know what the foot of the Pompeiana looks like, but the fight for position would be the craziest in any classic.

This is the profile:

n44iqdmxw0cg0koo0skoswg-profiel-pompeiana-large.png


It's not very steep, except for a 500 m section in the middle of the climb. I don't think we're talking about opening gaps or 30-40 seconds or more, but make it possible for a small group to attack and stay clear all the way up Poggio and to the race finish. Right now the that's is more or less impossible to do on Cipressa, and the race scenario is the same every time, attack on the last 2 kms on Poggio, and see if the rider(s) can stay clear of the peloton on Via Roma.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
jaylew said:
El Pistolero said:
Dekker_Tifosi said:
Nibali wasn't even a poll option. We totally failed again.

What a rider man, Lombardia x2, all GT's, San Remo and 2nd in LBL. There is nobody as complete.

Gilbert imo, but that's pretty much it.
Gilbert? Laughable.

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won both cobbled and hilly classics.

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won Paris-Tours and the Giro di Lombardia (in the same season no less).

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won 3 different Monuments and has podium places in four of them.

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won a freaking Monument with a 60km solo.

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won the Amstel Gold Race four times on 3 different courses.

Not to mention that he has won stages in all three Grand Tours, even including a mountain stage in the Giro.

I'm waiting.
*yawn*

Sorry, but none of that is overly meaningful in this discussion. Gilbert one of most complete one day riders? Absolutely. You could even make an argument he's the most complete one day rider. The most complete rider overall? Not even remotely close.
 
Re: Re:

OlavEH said:
Red Rick said:
Because it's steeper and higher. And there's less recovery time. Imagine climbing for 7/8 minutes, then hitting the Cauberg. Gaps by an attack on the Pompeiana are gonna be pretty big and if you make it bag to the peloton you immediately hit the Poggio without any domestiques. Good luck with that.

Lastly, I don't know what the foot of the Pompeiana looks like, but the fight for position would be the craziest in any classic.

This is the profile:

n44iqdmxw0cg0koo0skoswg-profiel-pompeiana-large.png


It's not very steep, except for a 500 m section in the middle of the climb. I don't think we're talking about opening gaps or 30-40 seconds or more, but make it possible for a small group to attack and stay clear all the way up Poggio and to the race finish. Right now the that's is more or less impossible to do on Cipressa, and the race scenario is the same every time, attack on the last 2 kms on Poggio, and see if the rider(s) can stay clear of the peloton on Via Roma.

Ofcourse we're not talking 30-40 seconds, although we probably are for the likes of Cavendish and Greipel. Sprinters would be on the absolute limit while the explosion has yet to come, and unlike the Poggio where they have to hang on on a 3.5% gradient, attacks will come at a 10% gradient. They'll explode. Scrap that, you probably are talking 25 seconds at least for the real hilly riders. There's no time to organize a chase either.

If you included the Pompeiana and include the Poggio, Sagan and Matthews are the only sprinters able to make it.

Pompeiana alone might be a more interesting idea. Cipressa/Pompeiana is probably too much as well.

Putting Le Manie back would probably be enough for the race.
 
Sep 6, 2016
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Re: Re:

jaylew said:
El Pistolero said:
jaylew said:
El Pistolero said:
Dekker_Tifosi said:
Nibali wasn't even a poll option. We totally failed again.

What a rider man, Lombardia x2, all GT's, San Remo and 2nd in LBL. There is nobody as complete.

Gilbert imo, but that's pretty much it.
Gilbert? Laughable.

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won both cobbled and hilly classics.

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won Paris-Tours and the Giro di Lombardia (in the same season no less).

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won 3 different Monuments and has podium places in four of them.

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won a freaking Monument with a 60km solo.

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won the Amstel Gold Race four times on 3 different courses.

Not to mention that he has won stages in all three Grand Tours, even including a mountain stage in the Giro.

I'm waiting.
*yawn*

Sorry, but none of that is overly meaningful in this discussion. Gilbert one of most complete one day riders? Absolutely. You could even make an argument he's the most complete one day rider. The most complete rider overall? Not even remotely close.

Gilbert at his best was dominant in the classics. Nibali has never been considered the best grand tour rider of his generation. If you're going to talk about "complete riders" then I don't know why grand tours should be weighted more heavily than the classics. If they are weighted equally, I think 4 monuments, a world title, and 9 grand tour stages compare quite favourably to 4 GTs and 2 monuments.
 
I'm late to this thread because I couldn't watch the race and only just finished watching a stream now - man, I've always like this race a lot, I really like the long buildup to the Poggio and all that, but this was a great ending once again. I get why many people in this forum don't particularly care for M-SR, but imo it delivers almost every year.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
Ofcourse we're not talking 30-40 seconds, although we probably are for the likes of Cavendish and Greipel. Sprinters would be on the absolute limit while the explosion has yet to come, and unlike the Poggio where they have to hang on on a 3.5% gradient, attacks will come at a 10% gradient. They'll explode. Scrap that, you probably are talking 25 seconds at least for the real hilly riders. There's no time to organize a chase either.

If you included the Pompeiana and include the Poggio, Sagan and Matthews are the only sprinters able to make it.

Pompeiana alone might be a more interesting idea. Cipressa/Pompeiana is probably too much as well.

Putting Le Manie back would probably be enough for the race.

I see no problem with losing guys like Greipel and Cav. I think monuments should not be easy enough for the more pure sprinters to win them. At minimum guys like Kristoff and Demare, not the even more pure sprinters.

Pompeiana alone? Do you mean with or without Poggio?
 
Re: Re:

OlavEH said:
Red Rick said:
Ofcourse we're not talking 30-40 seconds, although we probably are for the likes of Cavendish and Greipel. Sprinters would be on the absolute limit while the explosion has yet to come, and unlike the Poggio where they have to hang on on a 3.5% gradient, attacks will come at a 10% gradient. They'll explode. Scrap that, you probably are talking 25 seconds at least for the real hilly riders. There's no time to organize a chase either.

If you included the Pompeiana and include the Poggio, Sagan and Matthews are the only sprinters able to make it.

Pompeiana alone might be a more interesting idea. Cipressa/Pompeiana is probably too much as well.

Putting Le Manie back would probably be enough for the race.

I see no problem with losing guys like Greipel and Cav. I think monuments should not be easy enough for the more pure sprinters to win them. At minimum guys like Kristoff and Demare, not the even more pure sprinters.

Pompeiana alone? Do you mean with or without Poggio?
Pompeiana without Poggio.
 
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spalco said:
I'm late to this thread because I couldn't watch the race and only just finished watching a stream now - man, I've always like this race a lot, I really like the long buildup to the Poggio and all that, but this was a great ending once again. I get why many people in this forum don't particularly care for M-SR, but imo it delivers almost every year.

Agree with this sentiment. One of the reasons why I love MSR is because you can watch it in about 15 minutes if you'd like. It's also almost always a messy finish and hard to control. Fantastic.
 
Re: Re:

Durden93 said:
jaylew said:
El Pistolero said:
jaylew said:
El Pistolero said:
Gilbert? Laughable.

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won both cobbled and hilly classics.

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won Paris-Tours and the Giro di Lombardia (in the same season no less).

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won 3 different Monuments and has podium places in four of them.

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won a freaking Monument with a 60km solo.

Tell me of another rider in the current peloton that won the Amstel Gold Race four times on 3 different courses.

Not to mention that he has won stages in all three Grand Tours, even including a mountain stage in the Giro.

I'm waiting.
*yawn*

Sorry, but none of that is overly meaningful in this discussion. Gilbert one of most complete one day riders? Absolutely. You could even make an argument he's the most complete one day rider. The most complete rider overall? Not even remotely close.

Gilbert at his best was dominant in the classics. Nibali has never been considered the best grand tour rider of his generation. If you're going to talk about "complete riders" then I don't know why grand tours should be weighted more heavily than the classics. If they are weighted equally, I think 4 monuments, a world title, and 9 grand tour stages compare quite favourably to 4 GTs and 2 monuments.
I have no idea what argument you're making or if you're even meaning to respond to me. I guess you're trying to say Gilbert has at least as good a palmares as NIbali? You could certainly argue that but it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
 
MSR is a bit like Monaco GP in F1. To make an early attack stick is very hard in MSR and to overtake another car in Monaco is also very hard. If every race was like that, those 2 disciplines wouldn't have had many followers. But having one event like that during the whole year and adding their long history and prestige to that gives them a lot of flavour.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
OlavEH said:
Red Rick said:
Ofcourse we're not talking 30-40 seconds, although we probably are for the likes of Cavendish and Greipel. Sprinters would be on the absolute limit while the explosion has yet to come, and unlike the Poggio where they have to hang on on a 3.5% gradient, attacks will come at a 10% gradient. They'll explode. Scrap that, you probably are talking 25 seconds at least for the real hilly riders. There's no time to organize a chase either.

If you included the Pompeiana and include the Poggio, Sagan and Matthews are the only sprinters able to make it.

Pompeiana alone might be a more interesting idea. Cipressa/Pompeiana is probably too much as well.

Putting Le Manie back would probably be enough for the race.

I see no problem with losing guys like Greipel and Cav. I think monuments should not be easy enough for the more pure sprinters to win them. At minimum guys like Kristoff and Demare, not the even more pure sprinters.

Pompeiana alone? Do you mean with or without Poggio?
Pompeiana without Poggio.
Pompeiana without Poggio would be the worst of the worst. There's literally one pitch in all of that climb, and then something like 7km of untechnical power descent and 9km of flat. It's worse than cipressa-poggio.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
OlavEH said:
Yesterday's race had a great finish and an epic win by Nibali, but not much happende before Poggio. Am I the only one who hopes RCS tries a route change next year to make it a bit more dynamic? Adding Le Manie again and perhaps replacing Cipressa with Pompeiana.....

I think the route is fine now if someone like Nibali can win on it... It's the one classic where we have a battle between sprinters, punchers and now even a GT rider. The race has its own identity because of that.

Nothing happening before the Poggio just builds excitement for an explosive finale.

Pompeiana would be a bit too much I think, this would turn it into another hilly classic, of which we already have enough races.

There's nothing wrong with having a monument that gives the likes of Ewan, Kristoff, Demarre etc a chance, if only because it means that a classico rider like Kwiatkowski or a GT rider like Nibali has to produce something special to beat them. But it's clear looking at recent winners of MSR that while it can most likely be won in a bunch sprint, it's not a gimme for the fastest man over 250m.

And it may be too early to say for sure, but it does look like reducing teams to 7 makes classics harder to control, and so a result like yesterday's more likely to occur.
 

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