Moncoutie

[hrotha]

actually, Jaksche has gone on record that he could not climb over a river bridge when Tour came along, without gear.

Holding a wheel on a single summit ascent, until you blow, is fundamentally different from multiple ascents and a mtn pass

But a bad performance doesn't invalidate a good performance for the purposes of this discussion, since the point is that good performances are possible. In 1999, Jaksche had become dependant on dope. He didn't have it psychologically.

 

[blackcat]

Let's look at this.
Floyd came in second in 2002 behind Armstrong.
http://www.grenoblecycling.com/DauphineLibere2002.htm
That race began on June 9th, 2002.

According to Landis, he very first exposure to doping was in the form of testosterone patches. He claims his doping first began in 2002 in the "lead up to the TdF."



So that would seem to put it at just after the Dauphine.
Hmmm...

Floyd was a chargin on Mercury Viatel folks, sorry to break it to you. It just aint plausible he told Bruyneel he was prepared to do whatever he took, to make the Tour squad, coming from a cleanskin. Mercury Viatel had such luminaries as Van Petegem, Cooke, Dean, Guidi, Van Bon, Horner... tell me those folks did not know their way around the hypodermics.

 

[hrotha]

Floyd was a chargin on Mercury Viatel folks, sorry to break it to you. It just aint plausible he told Bruyneel he was prepared to do whatever he took, to make the Tour squad, coming from a cleanskin. Mercury Viatel had such luminaries as Van Petegem, Cooke, Dean, Guidi, Van Bon, Horner... tell me those folks did not know their way around the hypodermics.

Considering Landis explained it was Van Petegem himself who talked to him about the ethical justification for doping while they were teammates, your point is irrelevant.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Considering Landis explained it was Van Petegem himself who talked to him about the ethical justification for doping while they were teammates, your point is irrelevant.

yup Floyd was clean as they came until he hit the Hog's units. WoW....

No new ideas about MANcoutie? Spent his time looking the other way on the "time keepers" team and then again on Cofidis? He be clean because suspect doper said HE NO LIKE nothing ......he no take vitamins.... WoW...MANcoutie....

 

[ultimobici]

Floyd was a chargin on Mercury Viatel folks, sorry to break it to you. It just aint plausible he told Bruyneel he was prepared to do whatever he took, to make the Tour squad, coming from a cleanskin. Mercury Viatel had such luminaries as Van Petegem, Cooke, Dean, Guidi, Van Bon, Horner... tell me those folks did not know their way around the hypodermics.

Sorry, but what's with tarring Cooke & Dean with your wide brush? Never heard anything about them. Link please?

 

[blackcat]

Considering Landis explained it was Van Petegem himself who talked to him about the ethical justification for doping while they were teammates, your point is irrelevant.

premise = Landis was credible and telling the truth.... which probably ended in his Mennonite status, or leaving that communtity

 

[blackcat]

Sorry, but what's with tarring Cooke & Dean with your wide brush? Never heard anything about them. Link please?

make it the entire squad. or get your mods to redact...

Cookie did indeed have a little rundown in Nice. I wont bother informing you, but ask the ex girlfriend. Should be still on web servers of French newspaperz circa 2005

 

[blackcat]

Sorry, but what's with tarring Cooke & Dean with your wide brush? Never heard anything about them. Link please?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...=au&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com.au

tout dopage

 

[hrotha]

premise = Landis was credible and telling the truth.... which probably ended in his Mennonite status, or leaving that communtity

Well, without that premise there's not much to discuss. Everyone dopes. Everyone will always dope. Nothing else to it. Shut the Clinic.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

No new ideas about MANcoutie? Spent his time looking the other way on the "time keepers" team and then again on Cofidis? He be clean because suspect doper said HE NO LIKE nothing ......he no take vitamins.... WoW...MANcoutie....

Moncoutié never rode for Festina. Or in fact for anybody other than Cofidis.

You're creating some kind of Bassons-Moncoutié hybrid character. At this point, I fail to see how you ain't trollin'.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Moncoutié never rode for Festina. Or in fact for anybody other than Cofidis.

You're creating some kind of Bassons-Moncoutié hybrid character. At this point, I fail to see how you ain't trollin'.

My bad. L.S. I keep getting MANcoutie mixed up. Since I knew straight away who he was in the picture post you put up …how could I make a mistake like that. I do not and will not be able to keep up with where MANcoutie rides because I am not a fan.

No need to call me a name or go sideways.

 

[patricknd]

My bad. L.S. I keep getting MANcoutie mixed up. Since I knew straight away who he was in the picture post you put up …how could I make a mistake like that. I do not and will not be able to keep up with where MANcoutie rides because I am not a fan.

No need to call me a name or go sideways.

for the record, at second glance you were probably correct about normandy

 

[luckyboy]

Glenn it seems the only thing you know about Moncoutie is that he rides for Cofidis.

 

[ludwig]

This was from Landis e-mail. He told that during Dauphine Bruyneel lectured him how to use testosterone patches and after Dauphine Armstrong took him with helicopter to Switzerland where he got box of testosterone patches.

So, if you regard Landis trustworthy, then by his own words he came 2nd at Dauphine riding clean.

I await a link or a quote where Landis says he won the Dauphine clean.

 

[Barrus]

for the record, at second glance you were probably correct about normandy

Since there was already a complete row about this, explain what you mean by the statement about Normandy. Or I will take up the promise put here by Alpe.

And this goes for anyone who personally attacks someone from now on in this thread

 

[Von Mises]

I await a link or a quote where Landis says he won the Dauphine clean.

These are direct quotes from Landis letter. Yes, I cannot find exact phrase "I won Dauphine clean", but impression is exactly this.

2002: I was instructed on how to use Testosterone patches by Johan Bruyneel
during the During the Dauphine Libere in June, after which I flew on a
helicopter with Mr Armstrong from the finish, I believe Grenoble, to San
Mauritz Switzerland at which point I was personally handed a box of 2.5 mg
patches in front of his wife who witnessed the exchange. About a week
later, Dr Ferrari performed an extraction of half a liter of blood to be
transfused back into me during the Tour de France. Mr Armstrong was not
witness to the extraction but he and I had lengthy discussions about it on
our training rides during which time he also explained to me the evolution
of EPO testing and how transfusions were now necessary due to the
inconvenience of the new test.

2003: I was asked to ride the Vuelta a Espana that year in support of Roberto
Heras and in August, between the Tour and the Vuelta, was told to take EPO
to raise my hematocrit back up so more blood transfusions could be
performed. I was instructed to go to Lances place by Johan Bruyneel and get
some EPO from him. The first EPO I ever used was then handed to me in the
entry way to his building in full view of his then wife. It was Eprex by
brand and it came in six pre measured syringes. I used it intravenously for
several weeks before the next blood draw and had no problems with the tests
during the Vuelta. Also during this time it was explained to me how to use
Human Growth Hormone by Johan Bruyneel and I bought what I needed from Pepe
the team "trainer" who lived in Valencia

 

[ludwig]

Well as you can tell there's no way to conclude from that Landis was clean during that Dauphine...whos to say he hadn't already started transfusing?

Anyway I'm by no means certain these emails are the 100% truth with regard to Landis' own crimes and misdemeanors (at this time Landis still had hope of making a comeback to cycling). I simply tend to believe in the primary gist of the confession.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Well as you can tell there's no way to conclude from that Landis was clean during that Dauphine...whos to say he hadn't already started transfusing?

Anyway I'm by no means certain these emails are the 100% truth with regard to Landis' own crimes and misdemeanors (at this time Landis still had hope of making a comeback to cycling). I simply tend to believe in the primary gist of the confession.

Read the Kimmage interview! He claims he doped for the first time after the Dauphine when Lance gave him testosterone patches in Switzerland. You don't have to believe him, but don't deny that's what he claims.

 

[hrotha]

Well as you can tell there's no way to conclude from that Landis was clean during that Dauphine...whos to say he hadn't already started transfusing?

Anyway I'm by no means certain these emails are the 100% truth with regard to Landis' own crimes and misdemeanors (at this time Landis still had hope of making a comeback to cycling). I simply tend to believe in the primary gist of the confession.

Well, funny thing about trying to reconstruct and understand the history of doping is that we have few primary sources, and those are often less than adequate. It's a lot like trying to study ancient history but having to rely exclusively on Roman sources. Sure, we take them with a grain of salt, but in principle we accept what those sources say as long as they don't contradict other information (like archeological finds or different historical accounts).

Landis by himself is a suspect source, but what he says appears to line up pretty well with what we already thought we know about doping. That's why we tend to believe him.

 

[ludwig]

Read the Kimmage interview! He claims he doped for the first time after the Dauphine when Lance gave him testosterone patches in Switzerland. You don't have to believe him, but don't deny that's what he claims.

For the record we've already discussed that interview and Landis doesn't "claim" anything of the sort. Go back and read it again for yourself.

 

[patricknd]

Since there was already a complete row about this, explain what you mean by the statement about Normandy. Or I will take up the promise put here by Alpe.

And this goes for anyone who personally attacks someone from now on in this thread

it means that floyd's slash and burn tactics have done more good, never mind his less than pure motives. get it now? he stormed the beaches

 

[Von Mises]

Well as you can tell there's no way to conclude from that Landis was clean during that Dauphine...whos to say he hadn't already started transfusing?

Anyway I'm by no means certain these emails are the 100% truth with regard to Landis' own crimes and misdemeanors (at this time Landis still had hope of making a comeback to cycling). I simply tend to believe in the primary gist of the confession.

Ludwig, it was you who said that Landis is trustworthy source who is one of those who has shaped you view that all pro cyclist are dopers, thats it is impossible to perform whithout dope.

If you are taking extremely categorical position, you have to defend it from all angles, you cant datamine Landis´s words, using only these parts what suit you and dismiss others.

 

[Ferminal]

I have no idea if Moncoutie is clean or not, but often when you look through results his is the first name where you feel they are more likely to be clean than not. Then from that try and imagine what the absolute best rider could do if they were clean.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I was on the side that he was clean.... i wish RaceRadio would talk some more.

 

[thehog]

I was on the side that he was clean.... i wish RaceRadio would talk some more.

Classy.

Blacklisting a guy with zero evidence.

But at least we know Porte and Froome are clean