Most memorable doped perfomances?

[Red Rick]

Are you implying that big name riders can cheat with impunity but small name riders get shut down immidiately after cheating ?

This requires UCI to be both competent in catching cheaters and completely corrupt. I see little evidence for either.

I'm talking mainly about public perception.

Frankly we don't really know enough to say much about the level of corruption that is ongoing, and if that is at levels equivalent to Armstrong or worse.

Similarly, we don't really know if journalists being so uncritical of Pogacar is a passive or active process - i.e. there's active pressure being applied to not ask the wrong questions - or if journo's just really only go where the clicks and views go so that "sure Pogacar being 4 minutes faster than Pantani" is an emergent narrative simply only existing because fans are huffing the Kool-Aid of the TikTok Armstrong cult already.

For the rest, small riders are on unsophisticated doping that's easier to catch. And popular athletes getting away with more *** has been well described in scientific literature.

 

[Pozzovivo]

I'm talking mainly about public perception.

Frankly we don't really know enough to say much about the level of corruption that is ongoing, and if that is at levels equivalent to Armstrong or worse.

Similarly, we don't really know if journalists being so uncritical of Pogacar is a passive or active process - i.e. there's active pressure being applied to not ask the wrong questions - or if journo's just really only go where the clicks and views go so that "sure Pogacar being 4 minutes faster than Pantani" is an emergent narrative simply only existing because fans are huffing the Kool-Aid of the TikTok Armstrong cult already.

For the rest, small riders are on unsophisticated doping that's easier to catch. And popular athletes getting away with more *** has been well described in scientific literature.

Fair enough, I agree with the public perception part. It is clear that the major broadcaster ain't gonna shoot themselves in the face and be suspicious of Pogacar - no matter how bad a race was, they tell us how great it was. Nothing more boring than long solo's etc.

There really is a free for all in the cycling media - any idiot can make a site and report cycling "news" and his personal takes. There is certaintly no active pressure on the cycling media to don't ask questions of performances. I see no evidence for that and how can anyone assert such pressures? You don't invite the dude to the next press conference? It makes no difference. Most cycling media is micro-level and have little accountability to anyone.

Also, when credible newssources run doping questions as their focus they receive enourmous attention - clickbaiting should drive an increase not decrease in this type of reporting. However, you have to back up the stories with evidence of some sort to not get sued. They don't have that. Completely open question for why they don't have evidence. Little interest or competence in looking for it or little out there to be found?

Why assume UCI is corrupt at any large scale rather than small scale? What evidence do we have for this after the Armstrong - Verbruggen case?

Finally, I obviously agree that big fish gets away with more stuff. Tens of cyclist received bans for salbutamol levels exceeding the threshold marginally, but the big Froomie could double the threshold and get off. Porbably because SKY could play a tougher legal game than Diego Ulissi could. No need to infer corruption.

 

[zlev11]

the thing with Pogacar is that the vast majority of fans will defend him, there is no nationalism at play at all like there was with Armstrong or Sky/Froome, where they're blindly supported by fans from their country and then everyone else cant stand them. i've never seen anything like Pogacar in this sport. the normie fans will go to great lengths to defend him. i saw someone saying how his Worlds ride wasn't that crazy because "he had a bunch of UAE team riders help him" and it's like...not really, Sivakov barely took 3 weak pulls for him. but then this becomes the narrative somehow.

 

[ppanther92]

the thing with Pogacar is that the vast majority of fans will defend him, there is no nationalism at play at all like there was with Armstrong or Sky/Froome, where they're blindly supported by fans from their country and then everyone else cant stand them. i've never seen anything like Pogacar in this sport. the normie fans will go to great lengths to defend him. i saw someone saying how his Worlds ride wasn't that crazy because "he had a bunch of UAE team riders help him" and it's like...not really, Sivakov barely took 3 weak pulls for him. but then this becomes the narrative somehow.

Pogacar certainly has a lot of things going on for him - kind of a traditional career trajection with good junior results (lets not open the discussion again though), unlike Armstrong in GTs and unlike Froome in everything. Then your nationalism super-fandom argument certainly also is true.
Armstrong was also known as a narcissist before he was found guilty of doping, Froome was not the epitome of sympathy either, Pogi so far can hold the smiling friendly superstar image well (and while I think he is indeed quite likable, he for sure is also a cannibal if it comes hard to hard).
But biggest thing is probably that Armstrong had this TdF-only approach to cycling (at least when he was a superstar) and Sky more or less as well, sprinkled with their anticlimatic way of riding. Pogacar tries to go for a complete palmares including one day races and rides, without doubt, quite spectacularly while doing so. Fans like that.
I also think it served Pogacar well that he has this small spots of being human - like MSR or being beaten by Vingegaard in the TdF twice.

Where the three are not all too different is the communication on why they are so good. Armstrong - I just bust my ass off 6 hours on the bike, Sky/Froome - marginal gains, Pogacar - Zone 2. Three concepts that obviously every pro is aware off and tries to optimize. On the other hand, what is a winning rider supposed to say anyway, irrelevant of doping or not? If its something that is unheard off than there is (a) no gain in revealing and (b) it might be illegal or if not then soon to be illegal.

In general, I am still not sure if next year at the Tour Vingegaard will not again keep the upper hand. I mean, this guy was in ICU less than 3 months before the start. That certainly was worse than Pogi's wrist a year before and arguably he was still closer to the win.

 

[Pozzovivo]

the thing with Pogacar is that the vast majority of fans will defend him, there is no nationalism at play at all like there was with Armstrong or Sky/Froome, where they're blindly supported by fans from their country and then everyone else cant stand them. i've never seen anything like Pogacar in this sport. the normie fans will go to great lengths to defend him. i saw someone saying how his Worlds ride wasn't that crazy because "he had a bunch of UAE team riders help him" and it's like...not really, Sivakov barely took 3 weak pulls for him. but then this becomes the narrative somehow.

Remco won the worlds by 2:21, Pogacar won by 34 seconds. The difference in magnitude of the winning margin is extremely underrated imo. Pogacar's ride at Strade was much more dominant than the display at Worlds, and should be scrutinized much more severely.

Let me be the guy you criticize then and explain why I see it as not that dominant or strange.

Pog got 40 seconds essentially without burning much fuel, as the main bunch took some time to get their *** together. At this point he was only alone for 5 km of rolling terrain until he bridged to Tratnik. Tratnik essentially cancelled out Wellens, and Campenaerts chase. Benoot did not contribute anything and at that point you had Pog against Van Gills on the climb. Being on the wheel of Van gills maybe save Remco 5-10% against pog being alone for 10 minutes? Then you saw how the race unfolded with constant attacks in group 2 for two laps and Pog riding very steadily (but very fast obviously). This was the pattern until he won by a relatively modest margin.

About the public perception: For me it's quite simple. Pogacar is a likable, almost charming guy (for most observers), while Froome (at Team Sky) and Armstrong had few redeeming qualities. Genuinely unlikable. That's the main factor swaying public perception imo, not so much performances or anything like that. Nerds care about watts and draw their conclusions - and nerds are just a small minority of observers.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I also think it served Pogacar well that he has this small spots of being human - like MSR or being beaten by Vingegaard in the TdF twice.

Vingo did wonders to Pogi's popularity. It's good to lose spectacularly sometimes. In 2021 Pogacar had a fraction of his current popularity on the forum.

 

[Oldermanish]

Remco won the worlds by 2:21, Pogacar won by 34 seconds. The difference in magnitude of the winning margin is extremely underrated imo. Pogacar's ride at Strade was much more dominant than the display at Worlds, and should be scrutinized much more severely.

Let me be the guy you criticize then and explain why I see it as not that dominant or strange.

Pog got 40 seconds essentially without burning much fuel, as the main bunch took some time to get their *** together. At this point he was only alone for 5 km of rolling terrain until he bridged to Tratnik. Tratnik essentially cancelled out Wellens, and Campenaerts chase. Benoot did not contribute anything and at that point you had Pog against Van Gills on the climb. Being on the wheel of Van gills maybe save Remco 5-10% against pog being alone for 10 minutes? Then you saw how the race unfolded with constant attacks in group 2 for two laps and Pog riding very steadily (but very fast obviously). This was the pattern until he won by a relatively modest margin.

My point on several fronts. MvP missed the first part of the move but chose to wait for others to bridge. From that point each team's workers applied increasingly feeble efforts until the principal chasers attacked each other. Pogacar probably saved energy not responding to the amateurish surging behind him and got help as he needed it. Quinn Simmons seemed to work constantly and made the top ten, 56 seconds behind. What's that tell us? Remco, the same and he conceded much more time in the Tour to others. Pogacar is likely not squeeky clean but he's got company. Doubtful anyone in the top 20 of the Tour were cleaner.

 

[Netserk]

Remco won the worlds by 2:21, Pogacar won by 34 seconds. The difference in magnitude of the winning margin is extremely underrated imo. Pogacar's ride at Strade was much more dominant than the display at Worlds, and should be scrutinized much more severely.

It's harder to pull off a longer solo (if sufficiently long), so when it succeeds, it will be with a smaller gap (depending on the dynamics of the chase).

Evenepoel's winning margin was down to no organised chase and that the rest of the break fiddled around so much that they eventually were caught by the bunch. Zürich was the most dominant solo since at least Froome.

 

[Salvarani]

Hands down the most memorable performance. Instant classic.

We will never forgot Combloux.

 

[Pozzovivo]

It's harder to pull off a longer solo (if sufficiently long), so when it succeeds, it will be with a smaller gap (depending on the dynamics of the chase).

Evenepoel's winning margin was down to no organised chase and that the rest of the break fiddled around so much that they eventually were caught by the bunch. Zürich was the most dominant solo since at least Froome.

Strade was much more dominant, had a much greater winning margin and had a much longer solo (81 as opposed to 51km). Remco has done similar display's and the chase behind Pog at Zurich was equally disorganized for the last 51 km when he was solo.

 

[42x16ss]

Are you implying that big name riders can cheat with impunity but small name riders get shut down immidiately after cheating ?

This requires UCI to be both competent in catching cheaters and completely corrupt. I see little evidence for either.

There's the old adage "too big to fail".

Imagine if Armstrong went nuclear like Floyd Landis? It would have been the death of the sport. The UCI and ADAs can't risk a Pogacar, Van der Poel or Vingegaard going positive.

 

[ashhutch1997]

We will never forgot Combloux.

Rememberable day on the clinic section forum as well.

 

[Netserk]

Rememberable day on the clinic section forum as well.

The forum broke near the end of the 2013 Tour, it was down between July 19 and August 7.

 

[Red Rick]

Vingo did wonders to Pogi's popularity. It's good to lose spectacularly sometimes. In 2021 Pogacar had a fraction of his current popularity on the forum.

They way "i'm dead" got memed into existence and took off is absolutely pathetic.

Guy has a hunger knock once and people act as if he's just another guy.

 

[TrekCyclist]

The UCI and ADAs can't risk a Pogacar, Van der Poel or Vingegaard going positive.

As I understand, doping tests e.g. at the TdF (but also other events) are conducted by the ITA. ITA is supervised by WADA and tests are analyzed by WADA certified labs.
I would assume that any positive test would be become public sooner or later (later, as e.g. in case of Jannik Sinner). Not sure how the UCI would be able to cover up with the current setup. Would the ITA feel pressure to cover up a positive test of one of the big names? Not so sure.
In case of e.g. Sinner or the chinese swimming team the positive tests were there, but the sport institutions decided that it was not a doping offence. But it was made public

 

[topt]

As I understand, doping tests e.g. at the TdF (but also other events) are conducted by the ITA. ITA is supervised by WADA and tests are analyzed by WADA certified labs.
I would assume that any positive test would be become public sooner or later (later, as e.g. in case of Jannik Sinner). Not sure how the UCI would be able to cover up with the current setup. Would the ITA feel pressure to cover up a positive test of one of the big names? Not so sure.
In case of e.g. Sinner or the chinese swimming team the positive tests were there, but the sport institutions decided that it was not a doping offence. But it was made public

oh come on stop raining on their parade with objective analysis

 

[ashhutch1997]

The forum broke near the end of the 2013 Tour, it was down between July 19 and August 7.

2013 or 2023? The day of the Combloux TT on the clinic was a classic, we were all totally flabbergasted by what we had just witnessed.

 

[SHAD0W93]

2013 or 2023? The day of the Combloux TT on the clinic was a classic, we were all totally flabbergasted by what we had just witnessed.

2013. The forum used to crash more frequently back in the day, especially with more posters. LA confession, 2013 Tour, and Froome being cleared were big days.

 

[Rob5091]

In case of e.g. Sinner or the chinese swimming team the positive tests were there, but the sport institutions decided that it was not a doping offence. But it was made public

The Chinese swimmers story only became known when a whistleblower went to the press.

 

[the delgados]

I should be providing specifics when saying outrageous things, but I'm almost certain that Genevieve Jeanson placed third in a men's pro race when she was very young. That's sort of like comparing a junior woman in tennis to beating a top 500-ranked male.

 

[Oldermanish]

the thing with Pogacar is that the vast majority of fans will defend him, there is no nationalism at play at all like there was with Armstrong or Sky/Froome, where they're blindly supported by fans from their country and then everyone else cant stand them. i've never seen anything like Pogacar in this sport. the normie fans will go to great lengths to defend him. i saw someone saying how his Worlds ride wasn't that crazy because "he had a bunch of UAE team riders help him" and it's like...not really, Sivakov barely took 3 weak pulls for him. but then this becomes the narrative somehow.

I'm not a blind fan of any single rider. The World's ride was exactly what you saw; a few accelerated to chase and backed off considering the remaining kms to compete. IMO Pogacar wasn't even sure what was going on but was given a gap and went with it. His stunning endurance to sustain a gap may be the best point of contention but this isn't an uncommon theme in recent Worlds RR Championships. How did Remco win? How did MvP bonk in Britain and leave a gap that left Mads Pedersen to establish his credentials? There seems to be enough tactical bizarrity to each race that leaves fans grasping for reasons.
It's the incidental form of the winner that is questionable in almost every case except by their rabid fans. They claim it as divine evidence of their faith in that rider.
There has been a rider like Tadej in each generation. We pay more microscophic attention to detail now and that invests fans more.
Time to take a toke and drink some pints. Next year will be a new deal.

 

[42x16ss]

As I understand, doping tests e.g. at the TdF (but also other events) are conducted by the ITA. ITA is supervised by WADA and tests are analyzed by WADA certified labs.
I would assume that any positive test would be become public sooner or later (later, as e.g. in case of Jannik Sinner). Not sure how the UCI would be able to cover up with the current setup. Would the ITA feel pressure to cover up a positive test of one of the big names? Not so sure.
In case of e.g. Sinner or the chinese swimming team the positive tests were there, but the sport institutions decided that it was not a doping offence. But it was made public

See Armstrong and his backdated TUE from 1999. See Pierre Bordry getting fired for doing his job correctly in 2007-8.

The only people caught by testing during the EPO era were smaller names and secondary contenders, the big names were caught by busts and raids. Why should we believe anything has changed, with so many people now cheerleading the records from that era being smashed?

 

[42x16ss]

oh come on stop raining on their parade with objective analysis

Try blind faith

 

[Rob5091]

There are secrecy rules regarding "doping positives" - Froome's little problem at the Vuelta was only known when it was leaked to the press for example.

 

[42x16ss]

We can add today to the growing list