Tour de France Motogate-Stage 14 of the 2023 Tour de France

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I’m a Vingegaard fan but the motos blocking Pogi’s attack was ridiculous. The organizers should’ve put barriers up there, and that was atrocious. Is there anything else that should’ve been done?

Same

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Pogacar was huffing exhaust fumes non stop when Vingegaard was on a gap and didn't complain then.

Same

 

[Gigs_98]

It's probably a 6 seconds difference caused by that moto. Maybe 8. Of course that was pretty bad but what made chain gate so infamous was that the time lost on that stage actually mattered. I won't pay too much attention to this incident before Pogacar loses this Tour by single digit seconds.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Not that it has anything to do with this, but fine, if you wish to go off-topic to drive home a non-existent point, I'll play. Name me any fan who tolerates motards in front of the riders and thereby influencing the outcome of a race.

I didn't see a lot of Pog fans complaining about his motorpacing after every attacke he's made this tour...so I think they're okay with it in certain situations.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I think that if you try to think a little bit about that sprint you’ll see Pogacar lost that sprint because he was ridiculously stupid and kept waiting and waiting and just after Vingegaard started the sprint and passes him they crossed the line.

Vingegaard won that sprint because he paid attention and Pogacar did not, not because he was physically supreme.

It's almost as though you didn't see Pog try desperately try to cover, only to not have the speed to do so...That's like saying the only reason Pog drops Jonas when he attacks is because Jonas isn't paying attention, not because Pog is physically supreme.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Blame in descending order...
Fans.
Organizers not having decent barriers at the that spot.
Moto drivers.

Yeah, that they have temporarily banned the motos is absolute bullsh!t. Their only option was to mow down spectators.

 

[D. Pecher]

I didn't see a lot of Pog fans complaining about his motorpacing after every attacke he's made this tour...so I think they're okay with it in certain situations.

What is he supposed to do? The problem is exactly the same. Due to all the 'fans' clogging up the streets the Moto's cannot accelerate. Do you want him to slow down so he won't be in the slipstream?

The problem is crystal clear. This whole malarkey with utter idiots walking into the streets and waving flags infront of the riders' faces has to go. If they want to watch it - let them watch - but from the bloody side of the road, not on it.

 

[Tonton]

I understand the sentiment, but what do you want to do, shoot them? Even if they have to pay 2000 quid it won't give Pogacar the missed seconds back. That photographer actually admitted he effed up, saying "we couldn't accelerate because there were fans in front of us, but really, we should have gone earlier and forget about the picture." (as per Der Spiegel, Germany)

In reality the real culprit is ASO here. There shouldn't be drunken bampots with their pants down their ankles 500 m from a decisive summit. The last km before a KOM sprint with bonus seconds should have been fenced off as everyone with half a brain knows there'll be attacks there, either out of a breakaway group or the GC contenders.

Shoot them? You're joking, right? 500 won't deter anyone when a good picture can earn them thousands. 5000, 10000, now you may get their attention. What you quote from the photographer is exactly what I described. 500 is not accountability and won't set an example, which we desperately need.

For ASO's responsibility, I'm glad that you picked that up. It's the organizers' job to promote safety, they are accountable. We see cars and motorcycles jeopardize the well-being of riders in every pro race, enough!

So Pog's lost seconds have to be seen in a broader scope. And some would argue that bonus seconds don't belong. As fans, we were robbed...But it won't stop Tadej Pogacar.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

What is he supposed to do? The problem is exactly the same. Due to all the 'fans' clogging up the streets the Moto's cannot accelerate. Do you want him to slow down so he won't be in the slipstream?

The problem is crystal clear. This whole malarkey with utter idiots walking into the streets and waving flags infront of the riders' faces has to go. If they want to watch it - let them watch - but from the bloody side of the road, not on it.

My point was not a counter to the point you made, it was to the suggestion that all fans abohre motos whenever they influence the racing...which in the case of Pog fans, is not necessarily true.

A secondary issue to what you suggest in the second half is that I do not see how anyone can call themselves a fan of cycling, if they are lighting flares when the riders come by, and making them breathe toxic smoke. It infuriates me.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I didn't see a lot of Pog fans complaining about his motorpacing after every attacke he's made this tour...so I think they're okay with it in certain situations.

No more reading you, what a disgrace of intelectual dishonesty.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

No more reading you, what a disgrace of intelectual dishonesty.

...where are your posts indicating the unfairness of Pog motopacing? Go ahead, I'll wait for you to post.

Your boy lost a sprint today, deal with it.

 

[D. Pecher]

My point was not a counter to the point you made, it was to the suggestion that all fans abohre motos whenever they influence the racing...which in the case of Pog fans, is not necessarily true.

A secondary issue to what you suggest in the second half is that I do not see how anyone can call themselves a fan of cycling, if they are lighting flares when the riders come by, and making them breathe toxic smoke. It infuriates me.

As for your first point. I think you're unfair here. It's what James O'Brien likes to call the footballification of life. Some people think supporting their favourite driver mean they have to badmouth or even hate that drivers opponents. Something I find utterly ridiculous and it has nothing to do with what sports are about. I'm pretty sure, if Vingegaard had attacked and found himself in tow of the bikes because they cant get away through all the fans, the Pogacar 'fans' would be up in arms and the Vingegaard 'fans' would be suspiciously silent about it. That's why I put fans in quotes, because if you are that tribal, you aren't objective in any way to begin with.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

As for your first point. I think you're unfair here. It's what James O'Brien likes to call the footballification of life. Some people think supporting their favourite driver mean they have to badmouth or even hate that drivers opponents. Something I find utterly ridiculous and it has nothing to do with what sports are about. I'm pretty sure, if Vingegaard had attacked and found himself in tow of the bikes because they cant get away through all the fans, the Pogacar 'fans' would be up in arms and the Vingegaard 'fans' would be suspiciously silent about it. That's why I put fans in quotes, because if you are that tribal, you aren't objective in any way to begin with.

..."fan" is a derivative of the word "fanatic." Do with that as you wish.

 

[Elos Anjos]

...where are your posts indicating the unfairness of Pog motopacing? Go ahead, I'll wait for you to post.

Your boy lost a sprint today, deal with it.

I can recall two obvious cases this season where a Pogattack was damped by motos and one where a gap was a bit extended due to a car (Amstel Gold Race) but had no bearing whatsoever in the end result.

There was no reference whatsoever of motos pacing Pog in the Tour until it became convenient to present a "counter-argument" to his attacks being blocked by other motos. That's utterly dishonest and hence my point that it's not worth to continue on discussing when everything goes. If you're outfoxed, crawl back to your hole.

I really hope that either Vingo doesn't win by 5s but it can happen and that is why this case can determine the whole outcome. Fortunately Pogacar seems strong and confident enough to finish what he started today.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

As for your first point. I think you're unfair here. It's what James O'Brien likes to call the footballification of life. Some people think supporting their favourite driver mean they have to badmouth or even hate that drivers opponents. Something I find utterly ridiculous and it has nothing to do with what sports are about. I'm pretty sure, if Vingegaard had attacked and found himself in tow of the bikes because they cant get away through all the fans, the Pogacar 'fans' would be up in arms and the Vingegaard 'fans' would be suspiciously silent about it. That's why I put fans in quotes, because if you are that tribal, you aren't objective in any way to begin with.

I am a UNC Tar Heel fan. I hate the Duke Blue Devils with every ounce of my body. I hate Mike Kryzfaufphuhabe with the passion of 1000 suns. Two of the greatest sporting events I have ever watched were the last two games Kryzafdfdkhiage's teams played UNC. He lost in Cameron Indoor Stadium (Hansbrough Indoor to be more precise) in his last game there, and lost his last game as a coach in the NCAA Tourney, to UNC. Christian Laettner and JJ Redick are horrible human beings and deserve nothing but derision. You can characterize that hatred any way you like, but it keeps me warm during cold winters, so I'm okay with it.

 

[D. Pecher]

Sport without fans in attendance is like rock without guitars... if that's the solution, then count me out.

That being said, the difference in time, energy, effort and material spent on safeguarding between the climb and the descent of Joux-Plane is laughable. Surely having barriers along the road in the final kilometre of the climb is both easier to accomplish and more important than having audiovisual warnings for every last curve on the descent?

Sure, fans are needed, but it can't be beyond the wit of man not to stand on the road during a road cycling race. You don't see F1 fans run around on the track with their erse hanging out, do you? Beats me how to enforce it, but I've never understood the logic why people think it helps the riders when they're literally blocking the road screaming at them from 3 inches away and waving pieces of cloth in their faces. It just looks like someone left the cage open in the asylum to me.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Yeah, that they have temporarily banned the motos is absolute bullsh!t. Their only option was to mow down spectators.

They shouldn't have suddenly started running over spectators when Pog attacked. They should have stayed further away from the start

 

[SHAD0W93]

They shouldn't have suddenly started running over spectators when Pog attacked. They should have stayed further away from the start

Or pull over on the side like we’ve seen before on ascents and descents, then catch back up later.

 

[Unchained]

I take away that both racers don't do cheap, sketchy, unsportsmanlike BS. Today another example. Given their age and job,taking incredible risk is probably second nature. Impressed by both.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

It's almost as though you didn't see Pog try desperately try to cover, only to not have the speed to do so...That's like saying the only reason Pog drops Jonas when he attacks is because Jonas isn't paying attention, not because Pog is physically supreme.

The sprint for the bonus seconds was extremely short. When you let the guy behind surprise you there is no chance to accelerate to get up to the attackers speed, catch the meters you lost because you didn’t pay attention and then pass him again, agent it’s all over in a few seconds.
To compare it with the attacks where Pogacar dropped Vingegaard is nonsense.

 

[RedheadDane]

They shouldn't have suddenly started running over spectators when Pog attacked. They should have stayed further away from the start

Unfortunately, then spectators would just have gotten on the road behind the motos.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Pogacar was huffing exhaust fumes non stop when Vingegaard was on a gap and didn't complain then.

Same

So, you‘re saying that you‘ve also been huffing exhaust fumes? Explains a lot.

 

[Escarabajo]

I’m a Vingegaard fan but the motos blocking Pogi’s attack was ridiculous. The organizers should’ve put barriers up there, and that was atrocious. Is there anything else that should’ve been done?

But they didn't. He had his chance as well so I do not want to make a big fuss from this event. I have seen worse. So nothing to see here IMHO. Just make some arrangements in having barriers further down the mountain in last mountain of the day.

 

[rallybanana]

Just make some arrangements in having barriers further down the mountain in last mountain of the day.

In the 2016 Tour there were metal barriers at the top of the Joux Plane...extending for at least 500m from the summit. So why did the organisers decide to replace them with a rope this year? It's also obvious from this video that the uphill section shortly after the summit attracts a large number of fans and should be barriered as well.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAHkHNJSbdo&t=2517s

 

[RedheadDane]

In the 2016 Tour there were metal barriers at the top of the Joux Plane...extending for at least 500m from the summit. So why did the organisers decide to replace them with a rope this year?

Were there even ropes?