Motor doping thread

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Jul 5, 2009
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Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
Semper Fidelis said:
How many times did Greg change his bike back in the day?
No idea. Don't recall it being a thing even 10-15 years ago, was too young in Greg's day to be noticing stuff like that. Not sure what he has to do with my questions though...

I think if you think about it ,,,,,,, whats with all the bike changes? Is it a arms race?
Seems quite odd.
It was a rhetorical question. Nobody ever changed a bike unless it was broken. Stopping to change a bike takes what? 30 seconds? At 40 km/hr that puts you ~350 meters behind and in the wind. Why on earth would you do that voluntarily? These days some guys are changing bikes more often than they change gears. It's really weird.

John Swanson
 
Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
red_flanders said:
Semper Fidelis said:
How many times did Greg change his bike back in the day?
No idea. Don't recall it being a thing even 10-15 years ago, was too young in Greg's day to be noticing stuff like that. Not sure what he has to do with my questions though...

I think if you think about it ,,,,,,, whats with all the bike changes? Is it a arms race?
Seems quite odd.
It was a rhetorical question. Nobody ever changed a bike unless it was broken. Stopping to change a bike takes what? 30 seconds? At 40 km/hr that puts you ~350 meters behind and in the wind. Why on earth would you do that voluntarily? These days some guys are changing bikes more often than they change gears. It's really weird.

John Swanson
I know it was rhetorical, thanks.

There are opportunities to make changes in the course of a race, just as there are opportunities for "natural breaks", and why riders can recover from flats. 5 hour races are not run full gas the entire time, even classics. This is why breaks get time. The group slows for significant amounts of time. Obviously if the point of the change is to swap for a power-assisted bike, it's worth doing.
 
Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
red_flanders said:
Semper Fidelis said:
How many times did Greg change his bike back in the day?
No idea. Don't recall it being a thing even 10-15 years ago, was too young in Greg's day to be noticing stuff like that. Not sure what he has to do with my questions though...

I think if you think about it ,,,,,,, whats with all the bike changes? Is it a arms race?
Seems quite odd.
It was a rhetorical question. Nobody ever changed a bike unless it was broken. Stopping to change a bike takes what? 30 seconds? At 40 km/hr that puts you ~350 meters behind and in the wind. Why on earth would you do that voluntarily? These days some guys are changing bikes more often than they change gears. It's really weird.

John Swanson
I wouldn't say nobody. I remember a lot of comment about Heras doing it when he won the Vuelta (can't remember which year). The fact that he was doing it excited comment, though, is interesting.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
Semper Fidelis said:
How many times did Greg change his bike back in the day?
No idea. Don't recall it being a thing even 10-15 years ago, was too young in Greg's day to be noticing stuff like that. Not sure what he has to do with my questions though...

I think if you think about it ,,,,,,, whats with all the bike changes? Is it a arms race?
Seems quite odd.
I just thought since Greg thinks something is going and he did not change his bike out 2 to 4 times a stage, maybe it would point out that these bike changes are suspicious by themselves.
 
Re: Re:

Semper Fidelis said:
red_flanders said:
Semper Fidelis said:
How many times did Greg change his bike back in the day?
No idea. Don't recall it being a thing even 10-15 years ago, was too young in Greg's day to be noticing stuff like that. Not sure what he has to do with my questions though...

I think if you think about it ,,,,,,, whats with all the bike changes? Is it a arms race?
Seems quite odd.
I just thought since Greg thinks something is going and he did not change his bike out 2 to 4 times a stage, maybe it would point out that these bike changes are suspicious by themselves.
I get that. What I don't really understand is the connection between your comments and my post.

Nothing in my post argues that motor doping isn't happening or that multiple bike changes aren't suspicious. Quite the contrary.

Having a discussion too often seems to involve wading through the sludge of others' incorrect assumptions about intent.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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How dodgy is this (honest question) from Cadel Evans 2009 Giro.
Neutral service car and a motor are unable to change his wheel.

The story: http://www.velonews.com/2009/09/news/evans-puncture-probably-cost-me-the-win-of-the-vuelta_97851

The footage from different angles:

1. "this is a real slow wheel change, one of the slowest i've ever seen"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl_eqDVRnJc

2. some not so convincing commentary from evans himself post-race:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIvaNrQpCKw

3. cyclocosmos commentray --> 2m40sec: "one of the most shambolic wheel changes ever"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl1l5zmp6B8
 
Dec 7, 2010
8,773
3
0
Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
Semper Fidelis said:
red_flanders said:
Semper Fidelis said:
How many times did Greg change his bike back in the day?
No idea. Don't recall it being a thing even 10-15 years ago, was too young in Greg's day to be noticing stuff like that. Not sure what he has to do with my questions though...

I think if you think about it ,,,,,,, whats with all the bike changes? Is it a arms race?
Seems quite odd.
I just thought since Greg thinks something is going and he did not change his bike out 2 to 4 times a stage, maybe it would point out that these bike changes are suspicious by themselves.
I get that. What I don't really understand is the connection between your comments and my post.

Nothing in my post argues that motor doping isn't happening or that multiple bike changes aren't suspicious. Quite the contrary.

Having a discussion too often seems to involve wading through the sludge of others' incorrect assumptions about intent.
Ok next time I will not reply post.

Better to just post a reply generic type.
 
Re:

sniper said:
How dodgy is this (honest question) from Cadel Evans 2009 Giro.
Neutral service car and a motor are unable to change his wheel.

The story: http://www.velonews.com/2009/09/news/evans-puncture-probably-cost-me-the-win-of-the-vuelta_97851

The footage from different angles:

1. "this is a real slow wheel change, one of the slowest i've ever seen"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl_eqDVRnJc

2. some not so convincing commentary from evans himself post-race:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIvaNrQpCKw

3. cyclocosmos commentray --> 2m40sec: "one of the most shambolic wheel changes ever"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl1l5zmp6B8
It was the 2009 Vuelta not the Giro ;)

I don't understand why you've posted this in the Moto-Fraud thread. The only thing suspect about this is that the neutral service did such a poor job with the wheel change, perhaps it had more to do with Evans being in contention to win the race with his 2 main challengers being Spaniards and the neutral service doing a poor job wanting a Spanish rider to win the race.
 
Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Basically, the neutral service messed up and Valv.Piti won the race.

Tell me, whats suspicious about it?
It appears as if the neutral support is looking at the wheel as if there's something unusual about it, and Evans doesn't seem to be making a stink of it at the time. Heck, if I were Evans I would've been pissed and got of the bike and fixed it myself.
 
Re: Re:

With the way cycling has been for the last few decades, I give zero benefit of the doubt to the riders, teams, organizers, doping agencies or federations. None. I have lost faith in the system. I will never own a fancy bike again nor pin on a racing number. The only way to fix the mess is to put the Japanese in charge of everything.
 
Jul 5, 2009
2,440
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Re:

sniper said:
How dodgy is this (honest question) from Cadel Evans 2009 Giro.
Neutral service car and a motor are unable to change his wheel.

The story: http://www.velonews.com/2009/09/news/evans-puncture-probably-cost-me-the-win-of-the-vuelta_97851

The footage from different angles:

1. "this is a real slow wheel change, one of the slowest i've ever seen"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl_eqDVRnJc

2. some not so convincing commentary from evans himself post-race:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIvaNrQpCKw

3. cyclocosmos commentray --> 2m40sec: "one of the most shambolic wheel changes ever"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl1l5zmp6B8
From slowing down to new bike took just under a minute. In what world is this suspicious? Flubbing a rear wheel change is exceedingly easy, especially under pressure and if something is even slightly off, like the drops are 0.2 mm too narrow for the replacement wheel. Fumble. Understand the problem. Back off the quick release. Oops too much. Oh, the replacement bike is here!

John Swanson
 
Oct 16, 2010
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No, sure, fair points John. Iinm Lotto were using campagnolo in 09 and Shimano was sponsoring the neutral service wagon. Maybe that was part of the problem.
 
Jan 30, 2016
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Evans change in the Vuelta 09 on its own may not look suspiscious but in my opinion it does in combination with the earlier posted 2011 changes.
They where posted allready here:
viewtopic.php?p=2053600#p2053600
He wins stage 4 after a bike change and he wins tour with his performance after his bike change on stage 19.
There is better footage of stage 19 here from 51:15:
https://youtu.be/XpAizXzkTDI?t=51m16s
The first time he stops he does not want the help from the neutral service car and the second time he does not seem to want help from the neutral service bike. The third time he stops the car is there and he changes bike.

In this one page thread about stage 19 you can read that back then some posters thought that he was faking a mechanical.
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/pro-cycling-tour-de-france/cadels-bike-change-today-256365.html
Some interesting stuff in there including not very convincing explanations for the mechanical from Evans and his mechanic.

In stage 14 Evans also changed his bike, this time after only 3 km according to this race report:
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1295/Tour-De-France/article/detail/1293542/2011/07/16/Herbeleef-hoe-Vanendert-er-subtiel-vanonder-muisde.dhtml
 
Jan 30, 2016
1,048
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Re: Re:

MarkvW said:
ScienceIsCool said:
red_flanders said:
Semper Fidelis said:
How many times did Greg change his bike back in the day?
No idea. Don't recall it being a thing even 10-15 years ago, was too young in Greg's day to be noticing stuff like that. Not sure what he has to do with my questions though...

I think if you think about it ,,,,,,, whats with all the bike changes? Is it a arms race?
Seems quite odd.
It was a rhetorical question. Nobody ever changed a bike unless it was broken. Stopping to change a bike takes what? 30 seconds? At 40 km/hr that puts you ~350 meters behind and in the wind. Why on earth would you do that voluntarily? These days some guys are changing bikes more often than they change gears. It's really weird.

John Swanson
I wouldn't say nobody. I remember a lot of comment about Heras doing it when he won the Vuelta (can't remember which year). The fact that he was doing it excited comment, though, is interesting.
I would not rule out that Heras was using a motor himself to win those Vueltas. For example Thomas Voeckler has been doing suspiscious bike changes his entire career. Lets look at the 2004 tour:
http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdf2004.html
stage 12:
Voeckler, like Mayo and Hamilton before him, has changed his bike. I assume it's for a lighter climbing bike.
stage 13:
Thomas Voeckler has asked for another bike and is up and almost back in the peloton.
stage 15:
Thomas Voeckler did another one of those mysterious bike changes. The Tour de France site says that Voeckler worries that the glue that holds his tubular tires onto the rims has softened on the long descents. He doesn't want to roll a tire and crash.


The timing of his changes are very suspiscous if you look at the stage profiles.
He surprised everyone by holding on to the yellow jersey for ten days and over the pyrenees as he was riding uphill with the best climbers.
The glue excuse is not the most convincing in my opinion.

Hamilton is also mentioned in the race report to have done a couple of bike changes, perhaps he was the right expert for the 60 minutes show after all.
 
Oct 4, 2011
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Re: Re:

Tienus said:
MarkvW said:
ScienceIsCool said:
red_flanders said:
Semper Fidelis said:
How many times did Greg change his bike back in the day?
No idea. Don't recall it being a thing even 10-15 years ago, was too young in Greg's day to be noticing stuff like that. Not sure what he has to do with my questions though...

I think if you think about it ,,,,,,, whats with all the bike changes? Is it a arms race?
Seems quite odd.
It was a rhetorical question. Nobody ever changed a bike unless it was broken. Stopping to change a bike takes what? 30 seconds? At 40 km/hr that puts you ~350 meters behind and in the wind. Why on earth would you do that voluntarily? These days some guys are changing bikes more often than they change gears. It's really weird.

John Swanson
I wouldn't say nobody. I remember a lot of comment about Heras doing it when he won the Vuelta (can't remember which year). The fact that he was doing it excited comment, though, is interesting.
I would not rule out that Heras was using a motor himself to win those Vueltas. For example Thomas Voeckler has been doing suspiscious bike changes his entire career. Lets look at the 2004 tour:
http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdf2004.html
stage 12:
Voeckler, like Mayo and Hamilton before him, has changed his bike. I assume it's for a lighter climbing bike.
stage 13:
Thomas Voeckler has asked for another bike and is up and almost back in the peloton.
stage 15:
Thomas Voeckler did another one of those mysterious bike changes. The Tour de France site says that Voeckler worries that the glue that holds his tubular tires onto the rims has softened on the long descents. He doesn't want to roll a tire and crash.


The timing of his changes are very suspiscous if you look at the stage profiles.
He surprised everyone by holding on to the yellow jersey for ten days and over the pyrenees as he was riding uphill with the best climbers.
The glue excuse is not the most convincing in my opinion.

Hamilton is also mentioned in the race report to have done a couple of bike changes, perhaps he was the right expert for the 60 minutes show after all.
I think the glue excuse is quite a good one. Its a possibility so why take the chance - at least he isnt faking a mechanical
 
Oct 16, 2010
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@festinagirl is as reliable&informed as a source can be.
Il Cobra‏ @IlCobra21 5h5 hours ago
@danroan Fantastic job? That's the face of a 19 year old girl being thrown under the bus to prove their tablet thing works....

SuzeCY‏ @festinagirl 3m3 minutes ago
@IlCobra21 @EwonSprokler @danroan and the tablet doesn't work, not at all, know for a fact

SuzeCY‏ @festinagirl 22m22 minutes ago
@EwonSprokler @mocycling @ulif of course there's 1 glaring reason why the ineffective tablet is preferred to methods that might be effective
https://twitter.com/festinagirl/status/838475158113370123
 
Jul 5, 2009
2,440
3
0
Re:

sniper said:
@festinagirl is as reliable&informed as a source can be.
Il Cobra‏ @IlCobra21 5h5 hours ago
@danroan Fantastic job? That's the face of a 19 year old girl being thrown under the bus to prove their tablet thing works....

SuzeCY‏ @festinagirl 3m3 minutes ago
@IlCobra21 @EwonSprokler @danroan and the tablet doesn't work, not at all, know for a fact

SuzeCY‏ @festinagirl 22m22 minutes ago
@EwonSprokler @mocycling @ulif of course there's 1 glaring reason why the ineffective tablet is preferred to methods that might be effective
https://twitter.com/festinagirl/status/838475158113370123
To me this is total "duh" material. It's the digital equivalent of using an old school compass to detect a magnet. Except that every derailleur of an electronic shifting bike is loaded with them. You know. At the bottom bracket and rear hub...

John Swanson
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
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Indeed, I posted this up mainly as a means to confirm what you had said about it earlier in the thread.
 
Re:

sniper said:
@festinagirl is as reliable&informed as a source can be.
Il Cobra‏ @IlCobra21 5h5 hours ago
@danroan Fantastic job? That's the face of a 19 year old girl being thrown under the bus to prove their tablet thing works....

SuzeCY‏ @festinagirl 3m3 minutes ago
@IlCobra21 @EwonSprokler @danroan and the tablet doesn't work, not at all, know for a fact

SuzeCY‏ @festinagirl 22m22 minutes ago
@EwonSprokler @mocycling @ulif of course there's 1 glaring reason why the ineffective tablet is preferred to methods that might be effective
https://twitter.com/festinagirl/status/838475158113370123
Well if someone on Twitter knows it for a 'fact' it must be true...
 

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