Motor doping thread

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Re: Re:

Freddythefrog said:
samhocking said:
sniper said:
Cheers.
But what's your point?

That Millar wasn't slowing down like you claim? He was speeding up compared to his previous lap and speeding up compared to 2nd and 3rd during the last climb, therefore your claim he was 'freewheeling with the objective of losing time because it was starting to look awfully ridiculous' is false.

This post is awesome. The author has refused to look at Sniper's video and so has no idea what is going on (la la la I'm not listening) and then, away from what we see, there is also the reality. Has the poster ever caught his 3 minute man in a 25 mm TT? Not a laughing boy who does not know how to ride but someone real competent, giving it full gas in a big event ? You go past them, you never ever let them come back at you. What we see just doesn't happen if the contest is real.

Sam before you put finger to keyboard again, just watch the whole video all the way through and then talk to someone who has ridden at least say 40 time trials. The guys Millar destroys are fully gassed and he could have put another 30 seconds into them before he eased up. 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th are only separated by 15 seconds. Any muppet believing Millar's fairy story about what he took, needs to look in the mirror. Even this week Millar was still at it peddling the omerta - Migel Indurain won the Tour 5 times clean - telling lies to the little ones - it is just what he does.

Sam, Millar will dream of people like you when he finishes his gig at the studio and opens the door to his Maserati, and he will say a little prayer. Thank you Sam, thank all of the Sams who listen to me and believe, keep believing.

I watched the whole TT live at the time and watched it again when Sniper posted the link. Snipers claim was he was using a motor and slowing down up the last climb by freewheeling to scrub time off (I assume because he had gained too much time on previous lap and a bit, due to claimed motor assisting?). However, Millars 3rd split times compared to himself on previous lap and other riders on 1st and 2nd lap show he couldn't have scrubbed any speed off, because he actually ascended faster after the 3rd time check just before the climb to the finish. You would expect a rider to finish faster, this is generally the way to ride a TT. In short, the 3rd time check shows Millar did the final climb and descent to line, faster on the second lap than the first and faster than the rider who passed him and faster than 2nd & 3rd place too, so where is this time being scrubbed off by freewheeling gone to? Why go even faster if you already know you've probably won before the final climb after the last time split?
 
Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
sniper said:
""More phantoms".
More logic fail.
"I can't get my head around xyz, therefore it's not happening".
It's how Lance fans used to go about.
So many things they couldn't get their heads around. Ergo Lance must have been clean.

There are no phantoms.
We have three ingredients:
- history of cheating
- availability of the technology since at least the late 90s
- UCI complicity
Mix them, and the logical result is that all current pro-riders are *potential* motor users.
That doesn't mean they're all using. Not at all. It does mean we are forced to question and re-examen all top performers and performances of the last 15-20 years.
Sad state of affairs, which we owe to the UCI and guys like Phat and Brian.

History of doping and cheating in many forms. Yes. Technology available. Yes. UCI complicity? Well you'd have to define that for an informed response. They certainly have been complicit in covering up doping. Not clear that has been the case in motor doping. Not clear at all, and incentives would suggest otherwise.

The major logic fail here is that you seem to be arguing with someone who is saying there is no motor doping. Which I'm pointedly not. I'm pointing out several instances of where you and others see motor doping when no evidence for it exists. You see it every time a wheel spins or a bike changes. I find it a bit hysterical. It sucks, because it degrades the conversation, and mostly it's just dumb to read. There are plenty of intelligent posts on the topic. No one's calling those examinations phantoms.

I appreciate the sensible response and reading comprehension exhibited by Tienus in response to my post above. It stands in stark contrast to what I read here, sadly.

Lance fans. Really, quite amazing stuff.

You're shooting your own arguments in the foot with your hysteria.

amen to that.
Just because some of us don't see motors in every attack, or don't believe it's been used at the highest level for 25 years without any stories leaked so far, it doesn't mean we believe motors heve never been used.

I do find odd the numerous mechanical issued this year
 
Oct 16, 2010
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I never heard much about Lenco's video of thermal imaging camera he set up at last years Liege-Bastogne-Liege on La Roche-aux-Faucons climb about 20km from the finish where you see all the rider pass in slow motion? What was the conclusion why no riders had anything glowing? Everyone using heatshields since 2015 or nobody used their motor yet?




http://dai.ly/x473shb
 
Jul 5, 2009
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samhocking said:
I never heard much about Lenco's video of thermal imaging camera he set up at last years Liege-Bastogne-Liege on La Roche-aux-Faucons climb about 20km from the finish where you see all the rider pass in slow motion? What was the conclusion why no riders had anything glowing? Everyone using heatshields since 2015 or nobody used their motor yet?




http://dai.ly/x473shb

First up, the resolution is crap. Second is that the use of thermal cameras is close to stupid. It supposes when and where a motor is turned on. If a motor is only used 2% of a race, please work out the probability of seeing a motor in a 20 second time frame. Go on. I'll wait.

John Swanson
 
Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
samhocking said:
I never heard much about Lenco's video of thermal imaging camera he set up at last years Liege-Bastogne-Liege on La Roche-aux-Faucons climb about 20km from the finish where you see all the rider pass in slow motion? What was the conclusion why no riders had anything glowing? Everyone using heatshields since 2015 or nobody used their motor yet?




http://dai.ly/x473shb

First up, the resolution is crap. Second is that the use of thermal cameras is close to stupid. It supposes when and where a motor is turned on. If a motor is only used 2% of a race, please work out the probability of seeing a motor in a 20 second time frame. Go on. I'll wait.

John Swanson

I don't know much about when that was taken, but obviously if it was taken on the Roche-aux-Faucons, that would be a time when motors might be used. That and the last climb(s). I think you wildly mis-state the odds here. Anyone who understands when power is needed can place themselves at a critical point of a race.

That said, there are a host of problems with these thermal images which have been discussed. When to take the image in a race isn't one of them.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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I appreciate how Sam is causing himself problems here.
No motors at LBL, as the thermal cam shows us.
And so the beatifully clear heatsignal in Roglic' rear hub + seat post? Naaah. Nothing.

But in itself it's an interesting point, granted.

Several counterpoints:

1. As for heat shielding: yes, the technology exists (and has existed well before LBL 2016). It's F1 tech. The short version is they cover the motor/battery with a thin metal layer which if I recall correctly can simply be sprayed on. I'll look for a link tomorrow.

2. Lemond refers to a conversation he had with Total engineers in 2013, where they told him about the possibility of "isolating the engine"
Then I saw him at the Hungarian Grand Prix, with Total engineers, who confirmed that Varjas was brilliant. They also told me they could hide everything, isolating the engine.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/greg-lemond-miracles-in-cycling-still-dont-exist/
Granted, could've been a reference to noise isolation.

3. Even in the hypothetical absence of heat shielding, as John notes, you still need to get lucky to actually be at the right place at the right time.

4. That Roglic' hub motor was caught on camera could have been a simple matter of sloppiness.
Compared to LBL this was a small race. Maybe they were experimenting with a new type of hub motor. No shielding yet. Or it could've been a simple lack of budget issue.

5. Regardless of (1-4), the Stade 2 doc was broadcasted ca. 1 week before LBL.
It stands to reason that the program scared off those riders who had planned to ride LBL with non-heat-shielded motors.

In short: only an absolute fool would have been caught out by that thermal cam.
 
So because Strade 2 documentary was a week before, everyone removed their motors or shielded them using F1 technoogy because LeMond says so two months later in an interview and we believe it? No proof, just LeMond giving a-another interview to French interested media is enough and only a fool would be caught by a thermal camera they didn't know would even be filming them passing on second-to last most important climb of a race?
 
The problem with the Strade 2 Roglic picture for me is how the camera is set up. The temp range on that camera used is only 9 degrees with ambient/surface temp already at orange for the temperature that day, not black as it should be. i.e. why are static objects in an ambient environmental temp that day of around 10 degrees like the tyres and frame on the bike orange, as is the bootlid of the car? They should be much closer to black not already using up half the colour range just to show ambient surface temp. The ambient/surface temp covered is really more like just 5 degrees view of the world. Nothing is going to be colder than 10-12 degrees anyway and colder temperature is not what you're looking for in evidence of a hot motor either so why set the camera so high and in this way? All you're doing is making everything look hot that isn't any hotter than it should be.

As you can see in Lenco's video, the camera is set to a much wider 20 degrees sensitivity and ambient temp of 3.6 degrees is black to match the temperature of the race. The bike frames and tyres are near black, not orange as in Strade 2 picture and so much more representative of displaying actual differences in temperature above that. The Strade 2 picture is set-up rather like a political map. i.e. remove the key and change the floor and ceiling scale in a way to exaggerate what you want to have meaning and diminish what you don't. It's not a true temperature range of what is actually in front of Strade 2s camera.
003.jpg

sud.png
 
Can someone please clear something up for me?

I see repeated speculation that Landis could have been motored, however why hide it and only concentrate on the PEDs when he was going FR and looking to burn the house down? Surely exposing motors would have been as - if not more - destructive?
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Re:

samhocking said:
The problem with the Strade 2 Roglic picture for me is how the camera is set up. The temp range on that camera used is only 9 degrees with ambient/surface temp already at orange for the temperature that day, not black as it should be. i.e. why are static objects in an ambient environmental temp that day of around 10 degrees like the tyres and frame on the bike orange, as is the bootlid of the car? They should be much closer to black not already using up half the colour range just to show ambient surface temp. The ambient/surface temp covered is really more like just 5 degrees view of the world. Nothing is going to be colder than 10-12 degrees anyway and colder temperature is not what you're looking for in evidence of a hot motor either so why set the camera so high and in this way? All you're doing is making everything look hot that isn't any hotter than it should be.

As you can see in Lenco's video, the camera is set to a much wider 20 degrees sensitivity and ambient temp of 3.6 degrees is black to match the temperature of the race. The bike frames and tyres are near black, not orange as in Strade 2 picture and so much more representative of displaying actual differences in temperature above that. The Strade 2 picture is set-up rather like a political map. i.e. remove the key and change the floor and ceiling scale in a way to exaggerate what you want to have meaning and diminish what you don't. It's not a true temperature range of what is actually in front of Strade 2s camera.
003.jpg

sud.png

Yeah, you keep bringing this up.

Even a 7 degree rise above ambient for an a small, metal, air-cooled piece suggests there's a heat source inside. Remember that you're only going to fit a 40-50 Watt motor in there. So what we see from the FLIR image is consistent with a motor even if it's not proof.

I'm a lazy, lazy man. But it's 3rd year physics to model a metal cylinder, a heat source, and set the boundary conditions to room temperature. Put a 10 Watt heat source (the loss due to inefficiencies) in the middle and calculate the surface temp. Again; way too lazy to do the math, but the FLIR is right in line with what I'd estimate.

John Swanson
 
May 31, 2011
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Re:

budegan said:
Can someone please clear something up for me?

I see repeated speculation that Landis could have been motored, however why hide it and only concentrate on the PEDs when he was going FR and looking to burn the house down? Surely exposing motors would have been as - if not more - destructive?

A lot of people still like Floyd after his confession. Many people like him more now than they did previously.

If he confessed to using a motor a LOT LESS people would like him.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re:

budegan said:
Can someone please clear something up for me?

I see repeated speculation that Landis could have been motored, however why hide it and only concentrate on the PEDs when he was going FR and looking to burn the house down? Surely exposing motors would have been as - if not more - destructive?
I would turn this around.
Why would he talk about his own motoruse? What motivation could he possibly have had to speak about motors and rat out people close to him like Robbie Ventura and Fred Bessy?
 
Jul 10, 2009
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Re: Re:

sniper said:
budegan said:
Can someone please clear something up for me?

I see repeated speculation that Landis could have been motored, however why hide it and only concentrate on the PEDs when he was going FR and looking to burn the house down? Surely exposing motors would have been as - if not more - destructive?
I would turn this around.
Why would he talk about his own motoruse? What motivation could he possibly have had to speak about motors and rat out people close to him like Robbie Ventura and Fred Bessy?
LA has not yet admitted his motor use so why should landis? High cadence...where have I heard that of recent...?
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

T_S_A_R said:
budegan said:
Can someone please clear something up for me?

I see repeated speculation that Landis could have been motored, however why hide it and only concentrate on the PEDs when he was going FR and looking to burn the house down? Surely exposing motors would have been as - if not more - destructive?

A lot of people still like Floyd after his confession. Many people like him more now than they did previously.

If he confessed to using a motor a LOT LESS people would like him.

Landis wanted to take down Armstrong/Bruyneel and UCI, not his mates. Coming out to admit motor use would make things bad for everyone.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
Yeah, you keep bringing this up.

Even a 7 degree rise above ambient for an a small, metal, air-cooled piece suggests there's a heat source inside. Remember that you're only going to fit a 40-50 Watt motor in there. So what we see from the FLIR image is consistent with a motor even if it's not proof.

I'm a lazy, lazy man. But it's 3rd year physics to model a metal cylinder, a heat source, and set the boundary conditions to room temperature. Put a 10 Watt heat source (the loss due to inefficiencies) in the middle and calculate the surface temp. Again; way too lazy to do the math, but the FLIR is right in line with what I'd estimate.

John Swanson
:) nice.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re:

budegan said:
Makes sense. Cheers folks.
Well, yeah, kind of.
It's still all speculation and not everything can or will always make sense.
That used to be very similar when we looked at certain doping cases. Indurain 1996 falling behind like that didn't make sense. Riis winning it so superbly in 1996, but bottling it in 1997 didn't make sense. Ulrich winning it in 1997 but never again, didn't make sense. Etc.

The whole of Froome doesn't make sense. Wiggins career trajectory doesnt make sense either. Started doping when? In 2009? Unlikely. So why wasn't he performing before 2009?
Etc.

Anyhow, it's certainly an intriguing question.
Hamilton, to a lesser extent Jaksche (both riding for Riis), and especially Rasmussen are suspect in my book for motor use. So for them too, we'd be asking what their motivation was to speak out about doping but not about motors.
 
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Just ask yourself why Floyd gave it full gas for the "Floyd Fairness fund". Did he know 35%, 50% 66% or 100% that he was not guilty of what he was charged with ? It took real b*lls to do those videos and ask for the money. Did he go full gas in so public a way because he thought he had a 50:50 chance of him not having triggered the trip wire ?

Then move on, later, one of his best friends commits suicide, with Floyd's situation a serious contributing factor. That memory is never going away. I would imagine even now he thinks about it most days.

Anyone contemplating blowing the wh istle on motors knows that it will not be a clean strike. Collateral damage to the entirely innocent will probably exceed damage to those engaged in the scam. Floyd would have far more first hand knowledge of that than any of us. Imagine what his family have had to put up with as a consequence of his actions.

AFAIK I am not aware that we have had anything from the Floyd side other than he believes his positive was a stitch up. So who the heck was motivated to stitch him up in such a gross way? I thought at the time of his win he was more popular than Lance had been in 2004 or 2005.

Floyd appears to have clear motives for his later actions - to damage the standing of Lance, US Cycling, the UCI/Hein, increase his own standing, decrease Lance's bank account and put money in his own. I am not aware of any evidence that he wanted to burn the whole show to the ground.

If the USPostal case had been concluded or even found in favour of Lance, with nothing for Floyd, then Floyd maybe motivated to share his thoughts on who stitched him up and the full motive base behind it. Right now Floyd's rehabilitation is in the balance; very finely in the balance. Therefore, as Sniper says up thread, no sane person would expect anything more from him right now.

Are motors being used in the peloton ? The best evidence is in front of us. Are PEDs being used in pro cycling ? A shed load of money is spent on testing. Just who has been caught during Cookson's watch ? A shed load of money is spent on motor testing. Just who has been caught on Cookson's watch ? Take away the Sepanov's walking through the door to WADA and, worldwide, what would be the sum total of the anti-PED action be in the last 5 years - across all sports. There would be no Russian scam, no counter Fancy Bears. Pull all that out and what are you left with? Taking all those PEDs off the banned list for OOC testing and the gate has been left wide open. No one has asked Freeman just how many of shots of Tramadol he injected into Sir Brad OOC when it was "legal" ? Freeman and Brad were just being greedy getting three TUEs so they could continue to shoot up through those tours and Brad had a "get out of jail free" card for all the positives that would result.

Beyond this, the execution of testing for PEDs is so ineffective in cycling because of the structure of the sport with all its informant paths/corruption, the easy passage of shared defeat intelligence and dodgy staff moving from team to team with a bounty for what they know. What sane person would somehow think that testing for motors would not be similarly ineffective for the same reasons.


That "good egg" Michael Barry gave us "Inside the Postal Bus" (a real page turner - I just could not put it down) . Who wasn't shocked when Tyler told us what really happened on the US Postal bus; that they were so blatant; that so many were involved in taking the p out of us all ? The USPostal bus is broken down after the Tour stage on route to the hotel. Oh Dear - look the driver is out trying to fix the engine on the dodgy bus(how could they - why don't they have a brand new bus for hero Lance each year ?)! Look he has pulled off that black round thing with pipes sticking out of it and oil dripping from it. The breakdown people are not here yet. How can Lance be expected to win if he can't get to the hotel and get his rub down and food on time ? We have been here half an hour and they are still waiting for the breakdown truck. Phew, the driver cleaned up that black thing and now the engine has started. Lance and co are on their way, 40 minutes late to the hotel but at least they made it. By rights the driver in on the scam, driving to the RV with motor man; knowing Lance Tyler Floyd and the rest were all on the floor of the coach with blood bags hooked up, should have been a leak path, give me 1/2 $mill or I talk, but history has shown us time and again, even though these people do not become rich, they keep quiet.

Don't even think about what you have seen. The confirmation that motors are being used in the peloton is that the UCI are spending so much money and making a public show of testing for them.

Teinus' superb post up thread where he describes Tour radio announcing motor testing and then Contador and others stopping pedalling and swapping bikes is the corroboration. We can sleep secure that motor use is as likely in the peloton as PED use.

The only unknown right now is , who, how and where and when ?

A timely reminder of how the system works is neatly summarised with that picture of Sky DS Sean Yates with his Sky team car, (yes him from Linda McCartney (any news on that UKAD investigation coming to an end) and Lance's buddy), with motorman outside motorman's shop. Sir Dave Brailsford told us Sean had to leave Team Sky due to a sad and tragic twist in Sean's health (I know, I had to wipe the tear away as well) his heart condition had seriously worsened. Lazarus - picking up your bed and walking is just no match for these guys. Perhaps someone can post it up for us here to remind us, 5 years later, of the lies Sky, Sir David and Fran spun us. And who is it that thinks motors are unbelievable ?