Seconded. Good stuff with important context.
A similar case is Rasmussen: spilled the beans on his doping and had fairly obvious (financial) motivations to do so. But has spared quite a few names in the process, and is still far removed from 'burning the house down'.
And of course silent on the motor issue, well, not completely silent, but downplaying it in such a manner that it only raises eyebrows. It's "too risky", he said (coming from him that's remarkable), and using hyperbole saying "if somebody used a motor in the TdF, he'd arrive one day ahead of the competition", which is a ridiculous statement to make.
Come clean, Michael.
A similar case is Rasmussen: spilled the beans on his doping and had fairly obvious (financial) motivations to do so. But has spared quite a few names in the process, and is still far removed from 'burning the house down'.
And of course silent on the motor issue, well, not completely silent, but downplaying it in such a manner that it only raises eyebrows. It's "too risky", he said (coming from him that's remarkable), and using hyperbole saying "if somebody used a motor in the TdF, he'd arrive one day ahead of the competition", which is a ridiculous statement to make.
Come clean, Michael.
Re:
First radio contact, then goes (or seems to go) for the saddle, and then makes the jump.
Watch from the start and preferably slo-mo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwkndsmCIdU
Another one from Ventoux 2000.sniper said:
First radio contact, then goes (or seems to go) for the saddle, and then makes the jump.
Watch from the start and preferably slo-mo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwkndsmCIdU
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught
Wow. This place has become a dark corner of the interwebs similar to those where crackpots rant about 9/11 being an false flag operation by a conspiracy of Jews and "prove it" by weaving a shabby cloth out of a few strands of imaginary evidence while convincing themselves that everyone in authority is in on it and those who could prove their delusions are keeping quiet for their own self-preservation.
Funny that Bike *** was ultimately right about this forum.
Wow. This place has become a dark corner of the interwebs similar to those where crackpots rant about 9/11 being an false flag operation by a conspiracy of Jews and "prove it" by weaving a shabby cloth out of a few strands of imaginary evidence while convincing themselves that everyone in authority is in on it and those who could prove their delusions are keeping quiet for their own self-preservation.
Funny that Bike *** was ultimately right about this forum.
Is that you bro? What happened?
Major conspiracy indeed. And so many people in on it:
- Gilbert’s agent:
“We speak a lot of 2010, but I have evidence that it was in the peloton for much longer than that.” https://cyclingtips.com/2016/04/gilberts-agent-there-is-evidence-that-motors-have-been-in-the-peloton-since-before-2010/
- Michele Ferrari:
"On page 85 [of the CIRC report], a fleeting reference to the "Technical Cheating" showed up: frames, saddles, tubes, clothing, while only half a sentence is dedicated to "motors in frames", when this problem has existed for 10 years, with the UCI never devoting a single comment to well known events." https://www.53x12.com/circ-2015
Major conspiracy indeed. And so many people in on it:
- Gilbert’s agent:
“We speak a lot of 2010, but I have evidence that it was in the peloton for much longer than that.” https://cyclingtips.com/2016/04/gilberts-agent-there-is-evidence-that-motors-have-been-in-the-peloton-since-before-2010/
- Michele Ferrari:
"On page 85 [of the CIRC report], a fleeting reference to the "Technical Cheating" showed up: frames, saddles, tubes, clothing, while only half a sentence is dedicated to "motors in frames", when this problem has existed for 10 years, with the UCI never devoting a single comment to well known events." https://www.53x12.com/circ-2015
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught
Not quite that far, but close...
However, the main difference is that we actually have a proven case, and you'd have to be a naif to believe that was the only time a motor was used. It certainly wasn't her first time (or very, VERY unlikely).
But...I don't think any of the "evidence" presented here based on grainy videos or odd jumps in performance will expose motor use. That will have to come from an insider, and so far no one is talking. That suggests two options: No one is using a motor, or the omerta on motor use is more powerful than even inside the Sicilian mob.
I'm of two minds: I can't imagine that no one on the WT level has experimented with a motor out of competition. I bet every team, every bike maker has done so. But I also can't imagine anyone so craven as to actually race with one.
DamianoMachiavelli said:
Not quite that far, but close...
However, the main difference is that we actually have a proven case, and you'd have to be a naif to believe that was the only time a motor was used. It certainly wasn't her first time (or very, VERY unlikely).
But...I don't think any of the "evidence" presented here based on grainy videos or odd jumps in performance will expose motor use. That will have to come from an insider, and so far no one is talking. That suggests two options: No one is using a motor, or the omerta on motor use is more powerful than even inside the Sicilian mob.
I'm of two minds: I can't imagine that no one on the WT level has experimented with a motor out of competition. I bet every team, every bike maker has done so. But I also can't imagine anyone so craven as to actually race with one.
My opinion is that there are fundamental differences between something, like EPO, and motors that makes motors more probable these days.
1. Motors don't have a logistics nightmare. The parts can be procured anywhere and aren't subject to import/export controls. Batteries, motors, electronics, and 3-D printed parts can be ordered by anyone from anywhere. Drugs like EPO spends its life as a controlled substance. Possession alone is a big worry.
2. It doesn't take research, labs, or special skills to make a system. Compare that to something like EPO that starts as a large research project, goes through clinical trials, and the gets commercialized. Expensive! A unique, novel, new motor system could conceivably funded with someone's credit card. This means that as we speak there could be dozens of small groups looking to cater to someone willing to cheat. How do I know this is likely? Look at the number of in-wheel skateboard motor projects there are. Dozens and dozens of guys are home-building these as hidden systems with wireless controls. A quick Google search will probably shock you.
3. It's perfectly safe and legal to buy, use, and experiment with motors just as long as you don't get them anywhere near competition. Once someone uses a system and sees the benefits... It might create a powerful emotional response.
4. The only people who need to know about the motors are: the person who buys the system, the person who installs the system, and the mechanic who maintains the system. Compare that to the days of EPO where you had endless doctors, refrigerators for storage, blood spinners, and medical waste that needed to be disposed. Systems had to be in place for buying, storing, and administering the drugs safely. Add in some "Motomen" and you have a lot of people that are both aware of the drugs and need to keep quiet. And the paperwork! That's a tough one to keep quiet. So comparatively, motors are easy to keep quiet.
Analysis: Cheaper, safer, legal and easier to keep quiet. I'd say motors are a huge temptation. Just don't get caught!!
John Swanson
1. Motors don't have a logistics nightmare. The parts can be procured anywhere and aren't subject to import/export controls. Batteries, motors, electronics, and 3-D printed parts can be ordered by anyone from anywhere. Drugs like EPO spends its life as a controlled substance. Possession alone is a big worry.
2. It doesn't take research, labs, or special skills to make a system. Compare that to something like EPO that starts as a large research project, goes through clinical trials, and the gets commercialized. Expensive! A unique, novel, new motor system could conceivably funded with someone's credit card. This means that as we speak there could be dozens of small groups looking to cater to someone willing to cheat. How do I know this is likely? Look at the number of in-wheel skateboard motor projects there are. Dozens and dozens of guys are home-building these as hidden systems with wireless controls. A quick Google search will probably shock you.
3. It's perfectly safe and legal to buy, use, and experiment with motors just as long as you don't get them anywhere near competition. Once someone uses a system and sees the benefits... It might create a powerful emotional response.
4. The only people who need to know about the motors are: the person who buys the system, the person who installs the system, and the mechanic who maintains the system. Compare that to the days of EPO where you had endless doctors, refrigerators for storage, blood spinners, and medical waste that needed to be disposed. Systems had to be in place for buying, storing, and administering the drugs safely. Add in some "Motomen" and you have a lot of people that are both aware of the drugs and need to keep quiet. And the paperwork! That's a tough one to keep quiet. So comparatively, motors are easy to keep quiet.
Analysis: Cheaper, safer, legal and easier to keep quiet. I'd say motors are a huge temptation. Just don't get caught!!
John Swanson
Re:
The funny thing is, it should be the easiest tests of them all, x amount of bikes, including stage winner, GC leader and random x bikes are stripped down (hubs, bottom bracket etc etc) by team mechanic in a tent with an official with a video recorder. How long would that take a mechanic...
Very quickly it would take effect, who would risk getting caught and also establish fans confidence in racing.
But continue on with a pathetic, child like, flimsy iPad and let the "motoman" be literally a motor man... It's an infuriating jokeshop, a nodding skeleton spins his way to another tour win!!! Outside of steam coming out of the bottom bracket, nobody will be caught!
Excellent post and may I add... Not subject to retest, once you get away with it and nobody sings like a canary you're home free...ScienceIsCool said:
The funny thing is, it should be the easiest tests of them all, x amount of bikes, including stage winner, GC leader and random x bikes are stripped down (hubs, bottom bracket etc etc) by team mechanic in a tent with an official with a video recorder. How long would that take a mechanic...
Very quickly it would take effect, who would risk getting caught and also establish fans confidence in racing.
But continue on with a pathetic, child like, flimsy iPad and let the "motoman" be literally a motor man... It's an infuriating jokeshop, a nodding skeleton spins his way to another tour win!!! Outside of steam coming out of the bottom bracket, nobody will be caught!
Re: Re:
You've kind of touched on another point. Nobody is getting caught, but it's not like we're not being warned that they're in use!!
The problem is that charming azzholes like Amrstrong are... well, they're charming. And sincere, clumsy guys like Lemond are you know. Clumsy. So nobody listens to Lemond and Lance is on the verge of a comeback because he can go on air and talk shiz for days and put a smile on your face. Motors? Let's not talk about that. I still have a chance to buy Le Tour and become governor of Texas.
John Swanson
deeno1975 said:
You've kind of touched on another point. Nobody is getting caught, but it's not like we're not being warned that they're in use!!
The problem is that charming azzholes like Amrstrong are... well, they're charming. And sincere, clumsy guys like Lemond are you know. Clumsy. So nobody listens to Lemond and Lance is on the verge of a comeback because he can go on air and talk shiz for days and put a smile on your face. Motors? Let's not talk about that. I still have a chance to buy Le Tour and become governor of Texas.
John Swanson
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught
That there's no governing body and only one or two investigative journos pursuing it is another issue altogether.
For the n-th time. People *are* talking. Including insiders.Bolder said:
That there's no governing body and only one or two investigative journos pursuing it is another issue altogether.
Difficult to make sense of this. Would you likewise argue that if a new superdrug would appear, people would try it out of competition, but not actually race with it?
Re: Re:
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/07/interview-uci-presidential-candidate-lappartient-aims-ramp-fight-hidden-motors/
From Shane Stokes, todayBenotti69 said:...
"Just don't get caught!!"
Easy when no one is trying to catch you......
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/07/interview-uci-presidential-candidate-lappartient-aims-ramp-fight-hidden-motors/
I'm gonna leave that without comment.
- Feb 21, 2017
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Re: Re:
Nothing to see here folks, nothing shady at all.
Seriously, it only takes a few moments to switch out a back wheel, what kind of excuse is this?
sniper said:From Shane Stokes, todayBenotti69 said:...
"Just don't get caught!!"
Easy when no one is trying to catch you......
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/07/interview-uci-presidential-candidate-lappartient-aims-ramp-fight-hidden-motors/
I'm gonna leave that without comment.
Nothing to see here folks, nothing shady at all.
Seriously, it only takes a few moments to switch out a back wheel, what kind of excuse is this?
- Jun 27, 2013
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This topic reminds me of Visentini's bike at the 85 Giro prologue.
More than one journalist at the time mentioned you could hide a small motor in the "disc" wheels
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZOyfAcWYAA4RsH.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZOyfAgWAAAcXA1.jpg
More than one journalist at the time mentioned you could hide a small motor in the "disc" wheels
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZOyfAcWYAA4RsH.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZOyfAgWAAAcXA1.jpg
Re: Re:
Bike comes back from the check and... there's no way you could swap the wheel. That would be "conspicuous". Also, you've got racks of spare bikes that didn't go through any checks whatsoever. Unless you believe that someone checked the bikes of 180+ riders and an equal number of spares.
Let's do the math, shall we. 360 bikes at 1 bike per minute is 6 hours of inspection. Ten inspectors could do that in 0.6 hours.
Does anybody think this is happening, and/or adequate?? What about for a classic like Paris Roubaix? The Vuelta?
John Swanson
sniper said:From Shane Stokes, todayBenotti69 said:...
"Just don't get caught!!"
Easy when no one is trying to catch you......
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/07/interview-uci-presidential-candidate-lappartient-aims-ramp-fight-hidden-motors/
I'm gonna leave that without comment.
Bike comes back from the check and... there's no way you could swap the wheel. That would be "conspicuous". Also, you've got racks of spare bikes that didn't go through any checks whatsoever. Unless you believe that someone checked the bikes of 180+ riders and an equal number of spares.
Let's do the math, shall we. 360 bikes at 1 bike per minute is 6 hours of inspection. Ten inspectors could do that in 0.6 hours.
Does anybody think this is happening, and/or adequate?? What about for a classic like Paris Roubaix? The Vuelta?
John Swanson
thehog
BANNED
- Jul 27, 2009
- 31,285
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Re: Re:
They just need the F1 method, that all equipment has to be pre-certified. They use laser paint and barcoding to permit the equipment used. Pre-Tour check of all equipment with spot check during the race.
Currently the window for abuse is large. There is simply no control.
ScienceIsCool said:sniper said:From Shane Stokes, todayBenotti69 said:...
"Just don't get caught!!"
Easy when no one is trying to catch you......
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/07/interview-uci-presidential-candidate-lappartient-aims-ramp-fight-hidden-motors/
I'm gonna leave that without comment.
Bike comes back from the check and... there's no way you could swap the wheel. That would be "conspicuous". Also, you've got racks of spare bikes that didn't go through any checks whatsoever. Unless you believe that someone checked the bikes of 180+ riders and an equal number of spares.
Let's do the math, shall we. 360 bikes at 1 bike per minute is 6 hours of inspection. Ten inspectors could do that in 0.6 hours.
Does anybody think this is happening, and/or adequate?? What about for a classic like Paris Roubaix? The Vuelta?
John Swanson
They just need the F1 method, that all equipment has to be pre-certified. They use laser paint and barcoding to permit the equipment used. Pre-Tour check of all equipment with spot check during the race.
Currently the window for abuse is large. There is simply no control.
Re: Re:
Switch to the professional track and it's ultimately about selling the GT's and the monuments (hello, ASO). The name of the game on both tracks is to squash the scandals so that the money keeps flowing. TV rights, advertisements, sponsorships, booyah!
The big problem is the UCI... They straddle both worlds and have to administer the "laws" to the (previously amateurs) Olympics and the ASO. Two cash cows! Neither of which has *any* interest in funding this demon child or its efforts to destroy them. So a stalemate then. Keep the system trundling along and for eff's sake no more scandals. But don't collapse or the money disappears.
John Swanson
I love cycling. It's a pure sport, really, on the face of it. But there's not that level of money in it. The money flows (because of) from the Olympics to the national federations. That's the foundation of the amateur side. Keep it "clean" and safe and everybody makes money except the athletes.thehog said:
Switch to the professional track and it's ultimately about selling the GT's and the monuments (hello, ASO). The name of the game on both tracks is to squash the scandals so that the money keeps flowing. TV rights, advertisements, sponsorships, booyah!
The big problem is the UCI... They straddle both worlds and have to administer the "laws" to the (previously amateurs) Olympics and the ASO. Two cash cows! Neither of which has *any* interest in funding this demon child or its efforts to destroy them. So a stalemate then. Keep the system trundling along and for eff's sake no more scandals. But don't collapse or the money disappears.
John Swanson
Re: Re:
There doesn't have to be any scandal. UCI says from x date we will check the bikes as you have described and anything suspicious will be investigated and punishments enforced. Any team or rider willing to risk it would be crazy where as now it is a free for all.
ScienceIsCool said:
There doesn't have to be any scandal. UCI says from x date we will check the bikes as you have described and anything suspicious will be investigated and punishments enforced. Any team or rider willing to risk it would be crazy where as now it is a free for all.
nitpicking, but I don't think it's a "free for all".
Rather, it has the looks of it that UCI (and ASO and Velon) have found ways to control who gets to use what, and when.
They will of course never have 100% control, maybe not even 50%, but still, they're trying to control it at least at the top end, and with some success it seems.
See the previously described example of Contador for instance.
And if you look at (imo very) possibly motorized rides like Cummings stage win in tdf 2016, Roglic this year, De Gendt's stage win in the Giro in 2012, Hayman PR 2016, Betancur at the Hammers series this year, etc. etc., well, it looks as if these guys are only allowed to use a motor so many times per year, or at so many races per season, or whatever. Otherwise how do we explain that they don't perform like that every single race.
That said, of course doping may also have a big role to play in explaining the variation.
That's of course where we face the problem of not having a clue how much of a given performance is down to doping and how much of it is down to motors. It's clear that motors have not at all eradicated the need for doping.
Rather, it has the looks of it that UCI (and ASO and Velon) have found ways to control who gets to use what, and when.
They will of course never have 100% control, maybe not even 50%, but still, they're trying to control it at least at the top end, and with some success it seems.
See the previously described example of Contador for instance.
And if you look at (imo very) possibly motorized rides like Cummings stage win in tdf 2016, Roglic this year, De Gendt's stage win in the Giro in 2012, Hayman PR 2016, Betancur at the Hammers series this year, etc. etc., well, it looks as if these guys are only allowed to use a motor so many times per year, or at so many races per season, or whatever. Otherwise how do we explain that they don't perform like that every single race.
That said, of course doping may also have a big role to play in explaining the variation.
That's of course where we face the problem of not having a clue how much of a given performance is down to doping and how much of it is down to motors. It's clear that motors have not at all eradicated the need for doping.
Re:
Varjas however has seen it and shown footage of a working rear hub motor as well as the alleged rim of a magnetic wheel. But some think he's just there making stuff up, as part of a wider conspiracy to make it look like motors in wheels are real.
Meanwhile, as Guyincognito mentioned in his short but interesting post on the previous page, if you have discwheels, it's so effing easy to put a motor in there some thought it was happening in the mid-80s already.
Well, no, but the whole idea of a motor in a probike wheel is that we're not supposed to see themebandit said:
Varjas however has seen it and shown footage of a working rear hub motor as well as the alleged rim of a magnetic wheel. But some think he's just there making stuff up, as part of a wider conspiracy to make it look like motors in wheels are real.
Meanwhile, as Guyincognito mentioned in his short but interesting post on the previous page, if you have discwheels, it's so effing easy to put a motor in there some thought it was happening in the mid-80s already.
Are you taking the piss?
Have you ever seen a Team Sky rider take drugs? No. Therefore we shouldn't test Team Sky, because "why search for something not ever seen in the wider world"?
Also, as I already noted, Varjas has seen it, and has shown us footage of it. So yes, it has been seen in the wider world.
Not sure why you choose to ignore that, unless you're here to troll the *** out of this thread.
If you think Varjas is lying, at least share with us why you think so.
And never mind that your question related to race wheels.
If we talk all other wheels, suffice to do a simple google search, or, yes, if you can be bothered, to actually read this thread. If it exists in consumer wheels, chances are high it exists in race wheels.
Also feel free to go back to some of Scienceiscool's posts on hub motors before you embark on this topic again.
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