Motor doping thread

[TeflonDub]

First sneak peak at the Stade 2 piece proving the UCI iPad is bulls**t. https://twitter.com/teflondub/status/904032537013563392

 

[TeflonDub]

The Stade 2 piece walks up really close to the line of saying Lance was Varjas' first big-name customer.

"By pure coincidence, the engine of Varjas returned to the millimeter in the saddle tube of the Trek of Armstrong."

But the big news in the story is Varjas saying the UCI paid him to be quiet and not to sell his motors. Meanwhile, the UCI is going around telling people its iPad can detect motors when Varjas is telling them it won't. If Varjas was in the UCI payroll, it makes it much more difficult for the UCI's statements about the efficacy of their iPad to be truthful.
http://m.sport.francetvinfo.fr/cyclisme/stefano-vargas-docteur-es-moteur-408017.amp

 

[Bolder]

Re: Re:

Stade 2 is looking at mechanical fraud again tomorrow. This time they are testing the ipad.

https://twitter.com/thierryvildary/status/903871866623930368

The whole iPad affair was a ruse anyway, a ridiculous public affairs exercise to make it look like there was a real effort being made to contain mechanical doping. Too many little mistakes and slip ups from Ryder's spinning back wheel up to Foome's bike behaving strangely are not being investigated for what they are... The UCI is doing the Sargent Schultz...

Because an "investigation" by a bunch of networks trying to draw viewers proves everything.

Look, I don't think the UCI is doing enough, but I'm still waiting for the first WT (or Pro Continental tour) positive. After that I'll re-evaluate my position on motor doping. For now, I don't believe it's being used, but it may have been tried in the past. It still seems really silly to review every single YouTube video from the past 10 years to find something that seems a little off...

 

[pastronef]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

did anyone notice that the bike Varjas turns upside down to let the back wheel spin, has a 3 spoke carbon back wheel?

 

[adamfo]

So, how does the wheel rim motor work ? It must use electromagnetic induction and is therefore detectable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2iyRCfszMc

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

So, how does the wheel rim motor work ? It must use electromagnetic induction and is therefore detectable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2iyRCfszMc

UCI doesn't want to detect them.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Stade 2 is looking at mechanical fraud again tomorrow. This time they are testing the ipad.

https://twitter.com/thierryvildary/status/903871866623930368

The whole iPad affair was a ruse anyway, a ridiculous public affairs exercise to make it look like there was a real effort being made to contain mechanical doping. Too many little mistakes and slip ups from Ryder's spinning back wheel up to Foome's bike behaving strangely are not being investigated for what they are... The UCI is doing the Sargent Schultz...

Because an "investigation" by a bunch of networks trying to draw viewers proves everything.

Look, I don't think the UCI is doing enough, but I'm still waiting for the first WT (or Pro Continental tour) positive. After that I'll re-evaluate my position on motor doping. For now, I don't believe it's being used, but it may have been tried in the past. It still seems really silly to review every single YouTube video from the past 10 years to find something that seems a little off...

I'm in the same boat. I know that some WT guys used the downtube/BB motor, but that ruse it up. All of the hub based "theories" have failed to show how it can actually work (ie: the hub motor pic posted up thread does not have any way to get a skewer through it, nor any way to drive the wheel). The X-ray certainly shows a wheel with something bonded inside, but it doesn't show how it works, or that it was ever used by anyone let alone a racer. I have also argued up thread that if Stade is really on to something why were they silent for so long? Why haven't they shown us something other than manipulated photos from unknown sources?

Make no mistake, I know that people will do anything to win, but people will also do anything to sell copy. Show me some working models...

 

[Bolder]

I am certainly in agreement that the UCI is not 100 percent serious about mechanical aids. I think that even remotely actuated derailleurs are counter to the spirit of bicycling.

If the UCI was serious, they'd impose a 1 million euro fine and a 2-year suspension on any team found to be using one. Then add a 2-year ban to the rider and team managers. I know it's probably the same thing but mechanical aid bothers me more than pharmaceutical aid -- there's a sport called motorcycle racing for those folks.

 

[telencefalus]

it's obvious uci is not doing nothing against motors is pretty bad it seems UCI just act lice a mafia , disgusting , and the ipad story what a joke

 

[telencefalus]

what i can say is hoping for cookson to get remuoved , what are the chances of his departure after the ipad not working? I think it's possible that he will not be relected

 

[Pennino]

If Cookson (if... IF!) departs he almost certainly will be replaced by someone or somewhat else that represents certain interests here or there. Nothing new.

Physical doping? Ok, not much to do about that, it's still the physique that counts. But motorized dope just deserve a death penalty, sports wise. Just * off with that.

 

[adamfo]

Re:

So, how does the wheel rim motor work ? It must use electromagnetic induction and is therefore detectable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2iyRCfszMc

*UPDATE* It seems the inventor calls it a 'booster' not a motor. It is shown in some detail in the cut-away carbon wheel. How does it work ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBxfQJOHJxc&feature=youtu.be

 

[Benotti69]

Vaughters silence on this is deafening.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

So, how does the wheel rim motor work ? It must use electromagnetic induction and is therefore detectable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2iyRCfszMc

*UPDATE* It seems the inventor calls it a 'booster' not a motor. It is shown in some detail in the cut-away carbon wheel. How does it work ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBxfQJOHJxc&feature=youtu.be

It's just a brushless inside out motor. ie permanent magnets go on the rotor (wheel rim) and you move the electromagnets to the stator (inside seat stay and chain stays).

He probably calls it a booster, because it wouldn't be very powerful compared to a standard motor in seat tube or hub.

The stator would need to be built into the frame during the manufactuing process for monocoque carbon frames. Theoretically you could replace the whole rear triangle with a pre-fabricated one that has the stators already inside I guess, but certainly couldn't be retrofitted into existing frame without cutting it open

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Stade 2 is looking at mechanical fraud again tomorrow. This time they are testing the ipad.

https://twitter.com/thierryvildary/status/903871866623930368

The whole iPad affair was a ruse anyway, a ridiculous public affairs exercise to make it look like there was a real effort being made to contain mechanical doping. Too many little mistakes and slip ups from Ryder's spinning back wheel up to Foome's bike behaving strangely are not being investigated for what they are... The UCI is doing the Sargent Schultz...

The iPad device picks up a 66% false positive ratio (by the UCIs own test data), so it's impossible to find a motor without dismantling the bike. The iPad only picks up seat tube models but can be offset with an extra layer of carbon around the motor. Wheelset motors are not detectable by the iPad. Addtionlly the method used, requires the user to be 0-10mm from the bike, when one looks at the UCI testers they just wave the iPad at the bike and walk away.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

UCI - “[iPad] proved to be highly effective both in tests and in actual use"



.... by successfully finding no evidence of any motor use

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

So, how does the wheel rim motor work ? It must use electromagnetic induction and is therefore detectable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2iyRCfszMc

*UPDATE* It seems the inventor calls it a 'booster' not a motor. It is shown in some detail in the cut-away carbon wheel. How does it work ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBxfQJOHJxc&feature=youtu.be

Vindication! The video shows off a hub motor that can give 40 Watts for 30 minutes. Now where did we hear that estimate before.... Anyways, there it is.

John Swanson

 

[samhocking]

It can only be a false positive if the ferrous metal has become magnetised due to the permanent magnets or the stator magnetising them. ie, because the motor is there or has been there. The detection is not detecting metal, it's detecting electromagnetic fields.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

So, how does the wheel rim motor work ? It must use electromagnetic induction and is therefore detectable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2iyRCfszMc

*UPDATE* It seems the inventor calls it a 'booster' not a motor. It is shown in some detail in the cut-away carbon wheel. How does it work ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBxfQJOHJxc&feature=youtu.be

Vindication! The video shows off a hub motor that can give 40 Watts for 30 minutes. Now where did we hear that estimate before.... Anyways, there it is.

John Swanson

Apart from it will be huge. That's why it's covered in white bubblewrap lol. Try and fit it even 5w motor into a C50 Dura-Ace hub lol.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Stade 2 is looking at mechanical fraud again tomorrow. This time they are testing the ipad.

https://twitter.com/thierryvildary/status/903871866623930368

The whole iPad affair was a ruse anyway, a ridiculous public affairs exercise to make it look like there was a real effort being made to contain mechanical doping. Too many little mistakes and slip ups from Ryder's spinning back wheel up to Foome's bike behaving strangely are not being investigated for what they are... The UCI is doing the Sargent Schultz...

The iPad device picks up a 66% false positive ratio (by the UCIs own test data), so it's impossible to find a motor without dismantling the bike. The iPad only picks up seat tube models but can be offset with an extra layer of carbon around the motor. Wheelset motors are not detectable by the iPad. Addtionlly the method used, requires the user to be 0-10mm from the bike, when one looks at the UCI testers they just wave the iPad at the bike and walk away.

one in three is 33% false+ , but that is still a pretty poor. What it makes me wonder though is if 33% ish of test come back positive even if there is no motor, shouldn't there be more close examinations of bikes? Testing "magic" wheels would be easy, just have a rear triangle with the 'rest of the motor', and toss wheels in it. I'm still not convinced that its in use yet though.

 

[samhocking]

Notice how Varjas doesn't show the stators required to be in the seat stay and chain stays. Just as with the hub, they would be pretty huge. You would need seat stays much bigger than on a typical frame used in the peloton.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Stade 2 is looking at mechanical fraud again tomorrow. This time they are testing the ipad.

https://twitter.com/thierryvildary/status/903871866623930368

The whole iPad affair was a ruse anyway, a ridiculous public affairs exercise to make it look like there was a real effort being made to contain mechanical doping. Too many little mistakes and slip ups from Ryder's spinning back wheel up to Foome's bike behaving strangely are not being investigated for what they are... The UCI is doing the Sargent Schultz...

The iPad device picks up a 66% false positive ratio (by the UCIs own test data), so it's impossible to find a motor without dismantling the bike. The iPad only picks up seat tube models but can be offset with an extra layer of carbon around the motor. Wheelset motors are not detectable by the iPad. Addtionlly the method used, requires the user to be 0-10mm from the bike, when one looks at the UCI testers they just wave the iPad at the bike and walk away.

one in three is 33% false+ , but that is still a pretty poor. What it makes me wonder though is if 33% ish of test come back positive even if there is no motor, shouldn't there be more close examinations of bikes? Testing "magic" wheels would be easy, just have a rear triangle with the 'rest of the motor', and toss wheels in it. I'm still not convinced that its in use yet though.

False positives were 2/3rds thus 66% per UCIs own independent test data.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

It can only be a false positive if the ferrous metal has become magnetised due to the permanent magnets or the stator magnetising them. ie, because the motor is there or has been there. The detection is not detecting metal, it's detecting electromagnetic fields.

You might want to watch the Stade 2 video and then delete your post...

John Swanson

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

So, how does the wheel rim motor work ? It must use electromagnetic induction and is therefore detectable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2iyRCfszMc

*UPDATE* It seems the inventor calls it a 'booster' not a motor. It is shown in some detail in the cut-away carbon wheel. How does it work ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBxfQJOHJxc&feature=youtu.be

Vindication! The video shows off a hub motor that can give 40 Watts for 30 minutes. Now where did we hear that estimate before.... Anyways, there it is.

John Swanson

Apart from it will be huge. That's why it's covered in white bubblewrap lol. Try and fit it even 5w motor into a C50 Dura-Ace hub lol.

It was literally demonstrated and running... Literally. In a literal sense.

John Swanson

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Dave Brailsford said this:

“Finding an engine in a bike is a pretty simple thing to do in this day and age,” Brailsford said. “The technology used to beam the [TV]pictures up to the satellite is a lot more complex, and used on a day-to-day basis, than finding a motor in a bike. You just need the right tech to find it. You’ve either got an engine in your bike or you haven’t.”

“[FROOME’S] bike has been tested more than everyone else’s, we get tested every day and we actually had an email from the UCI saying thank you for being the most cooperative team out of everybody when it comes to bike checks and mechanical checking,” Brailsford added. “If someone is stupid enough come here [to the Tour de France] with a motor in their bike for sure they will get caught.”

This has since proven to be a lie since we now know that the farce of waving an Ipad quickly around the bike is not sufficient to detect a motor. The UCI previously ignored French police advice about motor use and I can't understand why they did not weigh the bikes unless they were afraid of discovering something!

The process of how the company supplying the technology was chosen to get the contract is also all very cloak and dagger and this whole lack of transparency from the governing body does not look at all well.