Motor doping thread

[thehog]

Re:

https://twitter.com/lavuelta/status/904672897100161024

He really worked the back wheel in that video :lol: He also goes against all of the UCI own rules for detection.

 

[TeflonDub]

Re:

Sam - and other yellow wrist band wearers defending the faith - the UCI commisioned report that "vindicates" their efforts as being "capable" and gives the 1 in 3 are genuine, (2 out of 3 are false) requires that the pad is moved slowly a distance not more than 11 mm from the frame. Can anyone find a single video of a tester moving the pad in such a manner. Every single video I have seen is of a token effort in which the pad is waved over the bike in a few seconds and never smoothly and a consistent distance from a tube or stay in a manner that would reveal a trace that could be discerned. If the videos we have seen are typical it would appear that whilst 40,000 tests have been conducted not a single one is worth anything.

+1

 

[samhocking]

You don't have to be within 10mm. Even with the weakest fridge magnet it will detect above 5cm for just a 0.005T magnet strength shrouded inside carbon fibre or ferrous metal. The field required to generate say 50 watts motor would be enormous by comparison to a 0.005T fridge magnet. The reason the test is stipulating 10mm is because that is the distance the ipad detects the heavy metal objects not magnetic fields from magnets. Higher Tesla magnets can easily be detected from 10-20cm away very easily with an ipad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi8Blez3zOo

 

[TeflonDub]

Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=192&v=pw4_Gk36_ik Shows the UCI using the device and getting a 0 all over the bike. the Stade 2 video showed us that the edge of the tablet was not where the static magnetic field was but it was about 5 cm down from the top edge and at 90° to the plane they were using. What the UCI video showed us was that Barfield and the idiot using the device in the UCI video had not got a clue what they were doing.
Barfield also lied to us to tell us that the tablet had been used to detect the single proven case. This is false. The facts are that MULTIPLE RIDERS COMPLAINED TO THE UCI STATING THAT FEMKE HAD A BIKE WITH A MOTOR IN IT AT THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS AND HAD USED IT IN PREVIOUS RACES. THE RESPONSE WAS SPRECIPITATED BY INTELLEGENCE PROVIDED BY FELLOW COMPETITORS.

That this snake oil salesman choses to lie about this case and steal false crdit for the totally ineffective use of the tablet, tells you where we are with this.

Exactly this. So the true detection rate of the UCI's technical fraud tests are 0/40,000. This is either :

A. the most effective crime prevention procedure in the history of mankind, or,
B. the most effective example of money-wasting security theatre since the creation of the TSA.

Hands up who thinks the UCI is capable of getting anything absolutely perfectly right from Day 1 without any teething problems whatsoever?

Hands up who thinks it is more likely that in the seven years since Cancellara's, er, 'magical' 2010 performances, the financial incentives to use motors are as compelling as ever while technology has improved dramatically?

You can only pick one.

 

[samhocking]

The sensor in the ipad works 360° all around the right side of the device. A toddler could detect a magnet with it no problem. My 6 year old daughter detected a speed sensor magnet hidden at the bottom of my toolbox full of metal tools no problem, so even ferrous metal around the magnet or in front doesn't really distort the reading because the field of the magnet is always going to be so much stronger.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

I find it really hard to imagine this going on as of right now in the world tour peloton.

It seems way to risky relative to doping. Only way to properly detect doping is tests which can be controlled etc blah blah

But this, I mean one crash and a broken bike spilling across the road in front of the fans?

I'm sure all the technology is there (or will be soonish) but they are one crash away from losing everything ... I just don't see it right now.

Hesjedal had his bike try and ride itself away after a crash a few years ago now. The result? Nada...

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=192&v=pw4_Gk36_ik Shows the UCI using the device and getting a 0 all over the bike. the Stade 2 video showed us that the edge of the tablet was not where the static magnetic field was but it was about 5 cm down from the top edge and at 90° to the plane they were using. What the UCI video showed us was that Barfield and the idiot using the device in the UCI video had not got a clue what they were doing.
Barfield also lied to us to tell us that the tablet had been used to detect the single proven case. This is false. The facts are that MULTIPLE RIDERS COMPLAINED TO THE UCI STATING THAT FEMKE HAD A BIKE WITH A MOTOR IN IT AT THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS AND HAD USED IT IN PREVIOUS RACES. THE RESPONSE WAS SPRECIPITATED BY INTELLEGENCE PROVIDED BY FELLOW COMPETITORS.

That this snake oil salesman choses to lie about this case and steal false crdit for the totally ineffective use of the tablet, tells you where we are with this.

Exactly this. So the true detection rate of the UCI's technical fraud tests are 0/40,000. This is either :

A. the most effective crime prevention procedure in the history of mankind, or,
B. the most effective example of money-wasting security theatre since the creation of the TSA.

Hands up who thinks the UCI is capable of getting anything absolutely perfectly right from Day 1 without any teething problems whatsoever?

Hands up who thinks it is more likely that in the seven years since Cancellara's, er, 'magical' 2010 performances, the financial incentives to use motors are as compelling as ever while technology has improved dramatically?

You can only pick one.

The fact that the UCI have hidden the iPad method away from everyone shows they know it doesn’t work that well and only under certain conditions. Stade 2 gets hold of one, asks the UCI to comment and they decline. The program airs and what is the UCI response? A press release with lies about when motor testing begin, claiming it was a Cookson initiative when it actually started under McQuaid and another lie about catching Femeke with the iPad method.

The UCI and especially Cookson in an election year are a total joke but I’m sure UCI PR spokesperson Sam will tell us different

 

[Amazinmets87]

https://youtu.be/4JOnCbOwb0g

 

[miguelindurain111]

Re:

https://youtu.be/4JOnCbOwb0g

He either forgot to speak to his microphone to shut off the motor or this is new marginal gain where you save energy by cruising with a motor to do warm down on turbo :lol:

 

[telencefalus]

uci cannot let that the motors came out because it the end of the sport , maybe an only team sky scandal could save them , who knows what the future wil look like

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Early model

 

[webvan]

Was there a steep slope or something ? Hard to explain if not...

 

[Tienus]

Re:

I think the UCI were using the company already for their phone-based endoscope app/adapters anyway long before approaching them for the ipad app. Since around 2012 I think. They still use their apps today for the endoscopy exams on riders bikes.

I think you are wrong.
https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/measuring-and-test-equipment/borescopes/8803al-inspection-camera-borescope-c-w-video/p/TSC3191703D

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Re:

I think the UCI were using the company already for their phone-based endoscope app/adapters anyway long before approaching them for the ipad app. Since around 2012 I think. They still use their apps today for the endoscopy exams on riders bikes.

I think you are wrong.
https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/measuring-and-test-equipment/borescopes/8803al-inspection-camera-borescope-c-w-video/p/TSC3191703D

The problem when you tell porkies to cover up is that it leads to more lies to cover the original lies as sky discovered during the Jiffy bag investigation. The UCI statement does nothing to convince, it reads as a party political broadcast on behalf of Cookson only concerning itself with defending it's position since he came into office when we know the testing process began in 2010.

What was the process for choosing Endoscope as it's service provider for the ipad detection method? Which other companies were asked to tender? Actually answer some of the pertinent questions posed by the short documentary and it might sound more convincing. A quick search of the company will tell you that it was incorporated in December 2012 so there was no reputational history of competence or otherwise. It seems bizarre that the world governing body would choose a small start up operating from a house in Birmingham to front up the software used to detect tehnological fraud in the pro peloton. Even moreso when you consider that it is a small British company when the UCI are run by the likes of Cookson/Gibbs/Barfield.

In the same manner as anti doping testing, the motor detection should be carried out by an entirely independent body. When you have the UCI's Barfield tipping off bike manufacturer's of impending motor check's at the tour it makes you query the whole process.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Endoscope-i don't make electronic hardware, they make the software app and a plastic phone adapter to connect an endoscope to it (only in last couple of years I believe). What you link to is UCI's standard hardware available off-the-shelf needed with an app before you could do it 'all' via your phone. Endoscope-i in terms of the app side is basically Simon Pargeter of Base8 Limited since 2012. The orange device is not a phone/recording app simply one of many pieces of hardware you can connect your ipad, iphone or even old-school recording device to before Endoscope-i launched the plastic adapter so you didn't need to buy the orange hardware. UCI still have the hardware and connect a phone or whatever to it and run the app to record the inspection, log it and Simon Pargeter's app is what you would run before he started Endoscope-i in 2012/2013.

I would imagine because UCI were using his iphone app to record and log storage/retrieval of the endoscope examinations from the orange hardware device they were already performing, they perhaps asked him to wrap the built-in ipad EMF service into an app as he is an app developer. Looking at Endoscope-i's accounts will tell you how much he got for wrapping it up for them.

 

[Tienus]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Endoscope-i don't make electronic hardware, they make the software app and a plastic phone adapter to connect an endoscope to it (only in last couple of years I believe). What you link to is UCI's standard hardware available off-the-shelf needed with an app before you could do it 'all' via your phone. Endoscope-i in terms of the app side is basically Simon Pargeter of Base8 Limited since 2012. The orange device is not a phone/recording app simply one of many pieces of hardware you can connect your ipad, iphone or even old-school recording device to before Endoscope-i launched the plastic adapter so you didn't need to buy the orange hardware. UCI still have the hardware and connect a phone or whatever to it and run the app to record the inspection, log it and Simon Pargeter's app is what you would run before he started Endoscope-i in 2013.

You posted these photos:
viewtopic.php?p=2184078#p2184078
I dont see the UCI connecting a phone to it, why would they?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

I think the UCI were using the company already for their phone-based endoscope app/adapters anyway long before approaching them for the ipad app. Since around 2012 I think. They still use their apps today for the endoscopy exams on riders bikes.

I think you are wrong.
https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/measuring-and-test-equipment/borescopes/8803al-inspection-camera-borescope-c-w-video/p/TSC3191703D

The problem when you tell porkies to cover up is that it leads to more lies to cover the original lies as sky discovered during the Jiffy bag investigation. The UCI statement does nothing to convince, it reads as a party political broadcast on behalf of Cookson only concerning itself with defending it's position since he came into office when we know the testing process began in 2010.

What was the process for choosing Endoscope as it's service provider for the ipad detection method? Which other companies were asked to tender? Actually answer some of the pertinent questions posed by the short documentary and it might sound more convincing. A quick search of the company will tell you that it was incorporated in December 2012 so there was no reputational history of competence or otherwise. It seems bizarre that the world governing body would choose a small start up operating from a house in Birmingham to front up the software used to detect tehnological fraud in the pro peloton. Even moreso when you consider that it is a small British company when the UCI are run by the likes of Cookson/Gibbs/Barfield.

In the same manner as anti doping testing, the motor detection should be carried out by an entirely independent body. When you have the UCI's Barfield tipping off bike manufacturer's of impending motor check's at the tour it makes you query the whole process.

Looks like the tender process was a free trip to Aigle to hang out with Cookie then off on another jucket to the Tour to take selfies with Brian and Froomey.... Endoscope & Base8 twitter feeds are full of Sky and Froomey tweets. Good work UCI, restoring credibility :lol:

 

[PremierAndrew]

Surely if Froome did have a motor, he'd only be using it on the tough mountain summits, not this relatively benign medium mountain stage

 

[webvan]

Re:

Surely if Froome did have a motor, he'd only be using it on the tough mountain summits, not this relatively benign medium mountain stage

...or when he's fallen off his bike and needs some help to chase?

Maybe that special "chasing" bike would explain the very odd fall at slow speed that occurred just after he got on it?

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

The UCI said the following in relation to bike checks:

"Our training always emphasises that the scanner is for initial controls and that bikes must be dismantled should any suspicion of the presence of a motor or any other hidden device be indicated," the UCI press release states.

Then Froome said this yesterday:

They have been dismantling the bikes for years now looking for motors, physically looking inside the bikes now. In my opinion, I can't even get onto the start line of a race and believe that someone is using a motor.


The UCI state that the bikes are only dismantled if suspicions are aroused after the initial Ipad checks. Froome then says they have been dismantling them for years. The inference is that a lot of bikes have failed the initial checks in order for them to have been dismantled yet there are no pictures of bikes ever been stripped down.

 

[adamfo]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

I suggest you read the published microbac report on UCI's website the documentary is trying to make this claim.

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/News/18/36/65/UCI17D0410_rp1_Neutral.pdf

The key understanding of how the tablets are used is this. The false positives don't really matter because the testing proved 100% success in finding motors anyway and so triggers further inspection according to how the lab described this being used in practice:

Detection Method & Follow-Up Procedure

The scanner operates by establishing a reference ambient magnetic field, and identifying disturbances in
the established field during the scanning of a bicycle. Metal components of sufficient size
within the bicycle frame interrupt this magnetic field, which registers on the tablet, which
is an Apple iPad. The magnitude of the magnetic field interruption is quantified by the
proprietary UCI software, and registers a value from 1-10 on the tablet, with 10 being the
strongest disruption. The general concept of the scanning device is to detect magnetic field
disruptions around the entirety of the bicycle frame and associated components, which
then, in turn, triggers additional inspection by race officials.
Because of the inherent magnetic field signature produced by the components of electric
motors, the principle upon which the detection method was developed is based in sound
physics.

Testing Conclusion

The UCI Scanner detected the hidden motor in 100% of the scans executed by trained
staff when the Scanner was positioned 10mm or less from the bicycle. The successful
function of the Scanner was validated independent of operator, bicycle brand, bicycle size,
or drivetrain, and was successful in identifying both the test motor, and the known bicyclespecific
motor installed in the Wilier Cento1 Cross frame.
No false negatives were observed (i.e. a low or zero reading when scanning an area with a
motor installed).
Several false positives were observed, where the Scanner produced high readings on a
bicycle without a motor installed. These false positives were noted exclusively in areas with
high metallic concentrations, such as bearings or bottom bracket shells. False positives
should not be considered a failure of the system; additional training may improve
recognition of a false positive due to metallic components, or a false positive may trigger
further inspection.
Proper distance of the Scanner was observed to be of critical importance. Successful
detection of the motor was observed in 100% of cases at 0 and 10mm, 75% in distances at
20mm, and efficacy further declined at 30mm and beyond.

Sam, quoting UCI, the same people that protected Armstrong till he went on Oprah is laughable at best or trolling.

Give us a break. Motors are in use. One was found in a cyclocross race and now there have been at least 2 TV shows about them. The UCI were caught warning a manufacturer the French police would be checking for motors, that the UCI are checking is proof enough there is motor use. Just because the UCI is doing its usual job of being part of the scam doesn't mean that motors are not in bikes, of course they are.

Stop trying to tell very informed people that have followed this sport for a long time that this kind of thing is not happening.

That's a logical fallacy, a circular argument in which the conclusion is included
in the premise.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Endoscope-i don't make electronic hardware, they make the software app and a plastic phone adapter to connect an endoscope to it (only in last couple of years I believe). What you link to is UCI's standard hardware available off-the-shelf needed with an app before you could do it 'all' via your phone. Endoscope-i in terms of the app side is basically Simon Pargeter of Base8 Limited since 2012. The orange device is not a phone/recording app simply one of many pieces of hardware you can connect your ipad, iphone or even old-school recording device to before Endoscope-i launched the plastic adapter so you didn't need to buy the orange hardware. UCI still have the hardware and connect a phone or whatever to it and run the app to record the inspection, log it and Simon Pargeter's app is what you would run before he started Endoscope-i in 2013.

You posted these photos:
viewtopic.php?p=2184078#p2184078
I dont see the UCI connecting a phone to it, why would they?

I think we're at cross threads here. UCI do the EMF inspection with the ipad, this uses Endoscope-i's UCI app developed in 2014/15 or whenever it was to record and log it. If the app finds a high reading or is false-negative the bike then gets taken apart and further inspected by the orange endoscope hardware already used by UCI before the UCI's EMF ipad app came about. What I mean is the endoscope-i iphone/ipad endoscope apps were already being used in industry and UCI could have used them had they not already invested in the orange hardware version you link to and which can connect wirelessly to other devices for recording purposes. I'm just saying the UCI's EMF app developed by endoscope-i came about 'after' base8 were already selling their endoscope apps to medical and related industries since 2012 long before the ipad app for UCI. i.e. they already existed in an industry UCI was probably aware of from their own use of endoscope technology to find motors anyway.

 

[adamfo]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

The UCI said the following in relation to bike checks:

"Our training always emphasises that the scanner is for initial controls and that bikes must be dismantled should any suspicion of the presence of a motor or any other hidden device be indicated," the UCI press release states.

Then Froome said this yesterday:

They have been dismantling the bikes for years now looking for motors, physically looking inside the bikes now. In my opinion, I can't even get onto the start line of a race and believe that someone is using a motor.


The UCI state that the bikes are only dismantled if suspicions are aroused after the initial Ipad checks. Froome then says they have been dismantling them for years. The inference is that a lot of bikes have failed the initial checks in order for them to have been dismantled yet there are no pictures of bikes ever been stripped down.

There are lots of photos of endoscopes being used and bottom brackets removed. I remember a couple of years ago at the TdF, teams including Sky, had all of their TT bikes taken away after the team TT stage and dismantled.

 

[thehog]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

The UCI said the following in relation to bike checks:

"Our training always emphasises that the scanner is for initial controls and that bikes must be dismantled should any suspicion of the presence of a motor or any other hidden device be indicated," the UCI press release states.

Then Froome said this yesterday:

They have been dismantling the bikes for years now looking for motors, physically looking inside the bikes now. In my opinion, I can't even get onto the start line of a race and believe that someone is using a motor.


The UCI state that the bikes are only dismantled if suspicions are aroused after the initial Ipad checks. Froome then says they have been dismantling them for years. The inference is that a lot of bikes have failed the initial checks in order for them to have been dismantled yet there are no pictures of bikes ever been stripped down.

There is also a lot of videos posted on Twitter of the UCI using the scanner well more than 10mm away along with saving the iPad over the bike without looking at the screen then walking away. If anyone needs training in the the UCI!

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

The UCI said the following in relation to bike checks:

"Our training always emphasises that the scanner is for initial controls and that bikes must be dismantled should any suspicion of the presence of a motor or any other hidden device be indicated," the UCI press release states.

Then Froome said this yesterday:

They have been dismantling the bikes for years now looking for motors, physically looking inside the bikes now. In my opinion, I can't even get onto the start line of a race and believe that someone is using a motor.


The UCI state that the bikes are only dismantled if suspicions are aroused after the initial Ipad checks. Froome then says they have been dismantling them for years. The inference is that a lot of bikes have failed the initial checks in order for them to have been dismantled yet there are no pictures of bikes ever been stripped down.

You are wrong. There are lots of photos of endoscopes being used and bottom brackets removed. I remember a couple of years ago at the TdF, teams including Sky, had all of their TT bikes taken away after the team TT stage and dismantled.

Have to confess I have yet to see any pictures, however we do know that during last years tour they refused to weigh the wheel's despite concern's of the French police.

From last year:

However, in the past the UCI has been accused of refusing French police requests to carry out alternative methods of detection, such as weighing wheels separately to whole bikes.

“We know the normal weight of a bike. With the motor of the Hungarian engineer [Varjas], the weight of the back wheel is heavier,” the source stated then.

“We asked the UCI to verify, to check. They told us that it is too difficult to take off the wheel. That was very funny, because it only takes five seconds to take off the wheel. That is all.”