Motor doping thread

[samhocking]

It's not false positive for magnetic 'resonance' though is it. It's also detecting magnetic 'resistance' at the same time. i.e. to find electronic components within wheels and frames too.

 

[thehog]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

I do love Brailsford telling the story of Sky receiving the UCI award for "the most cooperative team in motors in bike checks", it's too funny the amount of lies he spews :lol:

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

So, how does the wheel rim motor work ? It must use electromagnetic induction and is therefore detectable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2iyRCfszMc

*UPDATE* It seems the inventor calls it a 'booster' not a motor. It is shown in some detail in the cut-away carbon wheel. How does it work ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBxfQJOHJxc&feature=youtu.be

Vindication! The video shows off a hub motor that can give 40 Watts for 30 minutes. Now where did we hear that estimate before.... Anyways, there it is.

John Swanson

Apart from it will be huge. That's why it's covered in white bubblewrap lol. Try and fit it even 5w motor into a C50 Dura-Ace hub lol.

It was literally demonstrated and running... Literally. In a literal sense.

John Swanson

Exactly, there's a huge gap between literally and actually demonstrating a hub that looks like a hub actually used in the peloton.

Likewise, the rim Varjas shows being scanned has all magnets removed. There is a small foil-wrapped lithium battery, a printed circuit board and copper coil not connected to anything and that's it. I could build a more convincing rim motor than that nonsense wheel shown lol!

 

[Jacques (7 ch)]

I thought Dan Lloyd's video was quite good
https://youtu.be/Wv5F5N6mFf0

(Hope link works correctly)

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

It can only be a false positive if the ferrous metal has become magnetised due to the permanent magnets or the stator magnetising them. ie, because the motor is there or has been there. The detection is not detecting metal, it's detecting electromagnetic fields.

You might want to watch the Stade 2 video and then delete your post...

John Swanson

No. If you watch it is the hub model shown spinning and the hub is the size of a powertap hub. As I said, you can't fit a motor with stator of claimed power into a typical hub seen on pros bike or fit the required size of stators into the seat stays and chains stays of a typical frame in peloton either.

The components shown in the rim are simply wireless electronics (there's a lithum power pack in foil) shown and circuitboard and copper coil so you can charge it wirelessly from outside the rim.

 

[samhocking]

Here is the lab testing the wheel. Note the hub isn't the same as demonstrated. It clearly shows a circuit board, wireless charging coil pad and foil-wrapped lithium battery pack for powering the circuit board, which I assume wireless transmits/receives required data to hub and if it existed the stators controller in the frame from either bluetooth or ant+ etc

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Stade 2 is looking at mechanical fraud again tomorrow. This time they are testing the ipad.

https://twitter.com/thierryvildary/status/903871866623930368

The whole iPad affair was a ruse anyway, a ridiculous public affairs exercise to make it look like there was a real effort being made to contain mechanical doping. Too many little mistakes and slip ups from Ryder's spinning back wheel up to Foome's bike behaving strangely are not being investigated for what they are... The UCI is doing the Sargent Schultz...

The iPad device picks up a 66% false positive ratio (by the UCIs own test data), so it's impossible to find a motor without dismantling the bike. The iPad only picks up seat tube models but can be offset with an extra layer of carbon around the motor. Wheelset motors are not detectable by the iPad. Addtionlly the method used, requires the user to be 0-10mm from the bike, when one looks at the UCI testers they just wave the iPad at the bike and walk away.

one in three is 33% false+ , but that is still a pretty poor. What it makes me wonder though is if 33% ish of test come back positive even if there is no motor, shouldn't there be more close examinations of bikes? Testing "magic" wheels would be easy, just have a rear triangle with the 'rest of the motor', and toss wheels in it. I'm still not convinced that its in use yet though.

False positives were 2/3rds thus 66% per UCIs own independent test data.

" Data from Microbac suggested that one in three detections of ferromagnetic signals were false positives." One in three is 1/3 or 33%.

 

[thehog]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

No. What they said was 1 in three was the real alert, which are clouded by the 2 in 3 false positives - 66%.

As seen here from the documentary;

 

[Bolder]

Re:

Vaughters silence on this is deafening.

He's looking for sponsors right now. Leave him alone!

 

[samhocking]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

I suggest you read the published microbac report on UCI's website the documentary is trying to make this claim.

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/News/18/36/65/UCI17D0410_rp1_Neutral.pdf

The key understanding of how the tablets are used is this. The false positives don't really matter because the testing proved 100% success in finding motors anyway and so triggers further inspection according to how the lab described this being used in practice:

Detection Method & Follow-Up Procedure

The scanner operates by establishing a reference ambient magnetic field, and identifying disturbances in
the established field during the scanning of a bicycle. Metal components of sufficient size
within the bicycle frame interrupt this magnetic field, which registers on the tablet, which
is an Apple iPad. The magnitude of the magnetic field interruption is quantified by the
proprietary UCI software, and registers a value from 1-10 on the tablet, with 10 being the
strongest disruption. The general concept of the scanning device is to detect magnetic field
disruptions around the entirety of the bicycle frame and associated components, which
then, in turn, triggers additional inspection by race officials.
Because of the inherent magnetic field signature produced by the components of electric
motors, the principle upon which the detection method was developed is based in sound
physics.

Testing Conclusion

The UCI Scanner detected the hidden motor in 100% of the scans executed by trained
staff when the Scanner was positioned 10mm or less from the bicycle. The successful
function of the Scanner was validated independent of operator, bicycle brand, bicycle size,
or drivetrain, and was successful in identifying both the test motor, and the known bicyclespecific
motor installed in the Wilier Cento1 Cross frame.
No false negatives were observed (i.e. a low or zero reading when scanning an area with a
motor installed).
Several false positives were observed, where the Scanner produced high readings on a
bicycle without a motor installed. These false positives were noted exclusively in areas with
high metallic concentrations, such as bearings or bottom bracket shells. False positives
should not be considered a failure of the system; additional training may improve
recognition of a false positive due to metallic components, or a false positive may trigger
further inspection.
Proper distance of the Scanner was observed to be of critical importance. Successful
detection of the motor was observed in 100% of cases at 0 and 10mm, 75% in distances at
20mm, and efficacy further declined at 30mm and beyond.

 

[Beech Mtn]

The best part from the show was the bit about how "with almost zero money, with your phone, you too can hunt for hidden electrical motors!"

Picturing fans taking their phones up close and personal with the Sky bikes parked outside the bus, and Brailsford coming out all excited. :lol:

edit- or not even fans, just Kimmage.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Vaughters silence on this is deafening.

He's looking for sponsors right now. Leave him alone!

Motor manufacturers might be a good place to start.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

I suggest you read the published microbac report on UCI's website the documentary is trying to make this claim.

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/News/18/36/65/UCI17D0410_rp1_Neutral.pdf

The key understanding of how the tablets are used is this. The false positives don't really matter because the testing proved 100% success in finding motors anyway and so triggers further inspection according to how the lab described this being used in practice:

Detection Method & Follow-Up Procedure

The scanner operates by establishing a reference ambient magnetic field, and identifying disturbances in
the established field during the scanning of a bicycle. Metal components of sufficient size
within the bicycle frame interrupt this magnetic field, which registers on the tablet, which
is an Apple iPad. The magnitude of the magnetic field interruption is quantified by the
proprietary UCI software, and registers a value from 1-10 on the tablet, with 10 being the
strongest disruption. The general concept of the scanning device is to detect magnetic field
disruptions around the entirety of the bicycle frame and associated components, which
then, in turn, triggers additional inspection by race officials.
Because of the inherent magnetic field signature produced by the components of electric
motors, the principle upon which the detection method was developed is based in sound
physics.

Testing Conclusion

The UCI Scanner detected the hidden motor in 100% of the scans executed by trained
staff when the Scanner was positioned 10mm or less from the bicycle. The successful
function of the Scanner was validated independent of operator, bicycle brand, bicycle size,
or drivetrain, and was successful in identifying both the test motor, and the known bicyclespecific
motor installed in the Wilier Cento1 Cross frame.
No false negatives were observed (i.e. a low or zero reading when scanning an area with a
motor installed).
Several false positives were observed, where the Scanner produced high readings on a
bicycle without a motor installed. These false positives were noted exclusively in areas with
high metallic concentrations, such as bearings or bottom bracket shells. False positives
should not be considered a failure of the system; additional training may improve
recognition of a false positive due to metallic components, or a false positive may trigger
further inspection.
Proper distance of the Scanner was observed to be of critical importance. Successful
detection of the motor was observed in 100% of cases at 0 and 10mm, 75% in distances at
20mm, and efficacy further declined at 30mm and beyond.

Sam, quoting UCI, the same people that protected Armstrong till he went on Oprah is laughable at best or trolling.

Give us a break. Motors are in use. One was found in a cyclocross race and now there have been at least 2 TV shows about them. The UCI were caught warning a manufacturer the French police would be checking for motors, that the UCI are checking is proof enough there is motor use. Just because the UCI is doing its usual job of being part of the scam doesn't mean that motors are not in bikes, of course they are.

Stop trying to tell very informed people that have followed this sport for a long time that this kind of thing is not happening.

 

[thehog]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

I hope Sam is being paid word from Sky/UCI :lol:

 

[Benotti69]

The most interesting thing from the Stade2 documentary is the UCI are not suing. Tells us something.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Sam - and other yellow wrist band wearers defending the faith - the UCI commisioned report that "vindicates" their efforts as being "capable" and gives the 1 in 3 are genuine, (2 out of 3 are false) requires that the pad is moved slowly a distance not more than 11 mm from the frame. Can anyone find a single video of a tester moving the pad in such a manner. Every single video I have seen is of a token effort in which the pad is waved over the bike in a few seconds and never smoothly and a consistent distance from a tube or stay in a manner that would reveal a trace that could be discerned. If the videos we have seen are typical it would appear that whilst 40,000 tests have been conducted not a single one is worth anything.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Sam, quoting UCI, the same people that protected Armstrong till he went on Oprah is laughable at best or trolling.

Give us a break. Motors are in use. One was found in a cyclocross race and now there have been at least 2 TV shows about them. The UCI were caught warning a manufacturer the French police would be checking for motors, that the UCI are checking is proof enough there is motor use. Just because the UCI is doing its usual job of being part of the scam doesn't mean that motors are not in bikes, of course they are.

Stop trying to tell very informed people that have followed this sport for a long time that this kind of thing is not happening.

Good post, B.
A similar message could be stickied at the top of every clinic thread - especially those last two sentences.

 

[Freddythefrog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=192&v=pw4_Gk36_ik Shows the UCI using the device and getting a 0 all over the bike. the Stade 2 video showed us that the edge of the tablet was not where the static magnetic field was but it was about 5 cm down from the top edge and at 90° to the plane they were using. What the UCI video showed us was that Barfield and the idiot using the device in the UCI video had not got a clue what they were doing.
Barfield also lied to us to tell us that the tablet had been used to detect the single proven case. This is false. The facts are that MULTIPLE RIDERS COMPLAINED TO THE UCI STATING THAT FEMKE HAD A BIKE WITH A MOTOR IN IT AT THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS AND HAD USED IT IN PREVIOUS RACES. THE RESPONSE WAS SPRECIPITATED BY INTELLEGENCE PROVIDED BY FELLOW COMPETITORS.

That this snake oil salesman choses to lie about this case and steal false crdit for the totally ineffective use of the tablet, tells you where we are with this.

 

[Electress]

Sam - and other yellow wrist band wearers defending the faith - the UCI commisioned report that "vindicates" their efforts as being "capable" and gives the 1 in 3 are genuine, (2 out of 3 are false) requires that the pad is moved slowly a distance not more than 11 mm from the frame. Can anyone find a single video of a tester moving the pad in such a manner. Every single video I have seen is of a token effort in which the pad is waved over the bike in a few seconds and never smoothly and a consistent distance from a tube or stay in a manner that would reveal a trace that could be discerned. If the videos we have seen are typical it would appear that whilst 40,000 tests have been conducted not a single one is worth anything.

Exactly.

I also noticed from the video that the scanner didn't show much sensitivity. Everything seemed to be 0 or 10, from my memory.

Also, how shitty is that 'procedure' ? FFS. 'Additional inspection by race officials.' Do the UCI or anyone actually stipulate what that entails and who and how it must be done? Additional inspection could be anything from the inspector having a closer look with the naked eye, spending two seconds more with the iPad or actually doing something substantive, like X raying the bike, weighing the wheel and / or stripping it down.

Have the UCI published the number of bikes stripped down and examined following the iPad scans. The ratio of scans to follow up inspection would be interesting.

How the UCI are even attempting to defend their use of the iPad when we have ample demonstration of how badly it is being used - even if it was effective in and of itself - tells you all you need to know about this woeful crap organisation. UCI are unfit to govern the sport. The whole tendering process for that start up looked as dodgy as hell as well.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

I suggest you read the published microbac report on UCI's website the documentary is trying to make this claim.

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/News/18/36/65/UCI17D0410_rp1_Neutral.pdf

The key understanding of how the tablets are used is this. The false positives don't really matter because the testing proved 100% success in finding motors anyway and so triggers further inspection according to how the lab described this being used in practice:

Detection Method & Follow-Up Procedure

The scanner operates by establishing a reference ambient magnetic field, and identifying disturbances in
the established field during the scanning of a bicycle. Metal components of sufficient size
within the bicycle frame interrupt this magnetic field, which registers on the tablet, which
is an Apple iPad. The magnitude of the magnetic field interruption is quantified by the
proprietary UCI software, and registers a value from 1-10 on the tablet, with 10 being the
strongest disruption. The general concept of the scanning device is to detect magnetic field
disruptions around the entirety of the bicycle frame and associated components, which
then, in turn, triggers additional inspection by race officials.
Because of the inherent magnetic field signature produced by the components of electric
motors, the principle upon which the detection method was developed is based in sound
physics.

Testing Conclusion

The UCI Scanner detected the hidden motor in 100% of the scans executed by trained
staff when the Scanner was positioned 10mm or less from the bicycle. The successful
function of the Scanner was validated independent of operator, bicycle brand, bicycle size,
or drivetrain, and was successful in identifying both the test motor, and the known bicyclespecific
motor installed in the Wilier Cento1 Cross frame.
No false negatives were observed (i.e. a low or zero reading when scanning an area with a
motor installed).
Several false positives were observed, where the Scanner produced high readings on a
bicycle without a motor installed. These false positives were noted exclusively in areas with
high metallic concentrations, such as bearings or bottom bracket shells. False positives
should not be considered a failure of the system; additional training may improve
recognition of a false positive due to metallic components, or a false positive may trigger
further inspection.
Proper distance of the Scanner was observed to be of critical importance. Successful
detection of the motor was observed in 100% of cases at 0 and 10mm, 75% in distances at
20mm, and efficacy further declined at 30mm and beyond.

Sam, quoting UCI, the same people that protected Armstrong till he went on Oprah is laughable at best or trolling.

Give us a break. Motors are in use. One was found in a cyclocross race and now there have been at least 2 TV shows about them. The UCI were caught warning a manufacturer the French police would be checking for motors, that the UCI are checking is proof enough there is motor use. Just because the UCI is doing its usual job of being part of the scam doesn't mean that motors are not in bikes, of course they are.

Stop trying to tell very informed people that have followed this sport for a long time that this kind of thing is not happening.

This is not happening. There is no raceable model YET. DT/BB motors have been used, but that ruse is up. How can we be well informed about something know very little about? How are they getting a skewer through the hub motor? How are they getting the energy from the wheel/rim, to the the frame (or through the frame), to the hub, to the freewheel? I can guarantee that there are people trying to make this real, but if it exists, no one has show a raceable model. I agree, leave the UCI out of the conversation because even if they aren't the problem, they certainly aren't the solution.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

I suggest you read the published microbac report on UCI's website the documentary is trying to make this claim.

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/News/18/36/65/UCI17D0410_rp1_Neutral.pdf

The key understanding of how the tablets are used is this. The false positives don't really matter because the testing proved 100% success in finding motors anyway and so triggers further inspection according to how the lab described this being used in practice:

Detection Method & Follow-Up Procedure

The scanner operates by establishing a reference ambient magnetic field, and identifying disturbances in
the established field during the scanning of a bicycle. Metal components of sufficient size
within the bicycle frame interrupt this magnetic field, which registers on the tablet, which
is an Apple iPad. The magnitude of the magnetic field interruption is quantified by the
proprietary UCI software, and registers a value from 1-10 on the tablet, with 10 being the
strongest disruption. The general concept of the scanning device is to detect magnetic field
disruptions around the entirety of the bicycle frame and associated components, which
then, in turn, triggers additional inspection by race officials.
Because of the inherent magnetic field signature produced by the components of electric
motors, the principle upon which the detection method was developed is based in sound
physics.

Testing Conclusion

The UCI Scanner detected the hidden motor in 100% of the scans executed by trained
staff when the Scanner was positioned 10mm or less from the bicycle. The successful
function of the Scanner was validated independent of operator, bicycle brand, bicycle size,
or drivetrain, and was successful in identifying both the test motor, and the known bicyclespecific
motor installed in the Wilier Cento1 Cross frame.
No false negatives were observed (i.e. a low or zero reading when scanning an area with a
motor installed).
Several false positives were observed, where the Scanner produced high readings on a
bicycle without a motor installed. These false positives were noted exclusively in areas with
high metallic concentrations, such as bearings or bottom bracket shells. False positives
should not be considered a failure of the system; additional training may improve
recognition of a false positive due to metallic components, or a false positive may trigger
further inspection.
Proper distance of the Scanner was observed to be of critical importance. Successful
detection of the motor was observed in 100% of cases at 0 and 10mm, 75% in distances at
20mm, and efficacy further declined at 30mm and beyond.

Sam, quoting UCI, the same people that protected Armstrong till he went on Oprah is laughable at best or trolling.

Give us a break. Motors are in use. One was found in a cyclocross race and now there have been at least 2 TV shows about them. The UCI were caught warning a manufacturer the French police would be checking for motors, that the UCI are checking is proof enough there is motor use. Just because the UCI is doing its usual job of being part of the scam doesn't mean that motors are not in bikes, of course they are.

Stop trying to tell very informed people that have followed this sport for a long time that this kind of thing is not happening.

If it's happening, why is Vargas only showing a motor in a hub the size of a bowling ball, yet Strade 2 claiming this is the latest undetectable development from him? Why can't he show a 'working' motor hidden in the rim of wheel and frame and it spinning. Why? Why claim the UCI's results and testing is not valid, yet at the same time use the microbacs procedure to validate your own Strade 2 report of finding a motor? Why does the rim not have any magnets in and claim the motor was invisible to the UCI's detector, why didn't they just show us something that works and something that can't be detected instead of something that is devoid of magnets and isn't ever seen spinning? They've confirmed they found 1 standard motor they knew was already motorised because its maker drove it to them in his car for them to test. Why, if it's so obvious to find do they continually fail at basic evidence to back up what we see being used in the peloton every day with similar looking products? Where is a frame that looks like any used in the peloton, where is a C50 rear wheel and hub that looks anything like used in the peloton or a Zipp or anything recognisable. Nothing exists yet from Varjas other than what looks like an unworking prototype.

 

[deValtos]

I find it really hard to imagine this going on as of right now in the world tour peloton.

It seems way to risky relative to doping. Only way to properly detect doping is tests which can be controlled etc blah blah

But this, I mean one crash and a broken bike spilling across the road in front of the fans? Surely a random dude can pass near the bikes with his own detector, (xray possibly?) at the start and end of the stage. Heck team buses get their bikes stolen every year, I imagine one motor bike would get leaked.

I'm sure all the technology is there (or will be soonish) but they are one crash away from losing everything ... I just don't see it right now.

 

[thehog]

Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=192&v=pw4_Gk36_ik Shows the UCI using the device and getting a 0 all over the bike. the Stade 2 video showed us that the edge of the tablet was not where the static magnetic field was but it was about 5 cm down from the top edge and at 90° to the plane they were using. What the UCI video showed us was that Barfield and the idiot using the device in the UCI video had not got a clue what they were doing.
Barfield also lied to us to tell us that the tablet had been used to detect the single proven case. This is false. The facts are that MULTIPLE RIDERS COMPLAINED TO THE UCI STATING THAT FEMKE HAD A BIKE WITH A MOTOR IN IT AT THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS AND HAD USED IT IN PREVIOUS RACES. THE RESPONSE WAS SPRECIPITATED BY INTELLEGENCE PROVIDED BY FELLOW COMPETITORS.

That this snake oil salesman choses to lie about this case and steal false crdit for the totally ineffective use of the tablet, tells you where we are with this.

One should note that Mark Barfield is from Birmingham the same location of Endoscope who make medical devices http://www.endoscope-i.com a small startup with a team of 4 people, running out of their living room, which magically happens to be in a Birmingham. What are the chances? And why them? With no experience with motors or cycling?!

McQuaid in 2010 started limited x-ray testing for motors using a Swiss university to develop the technology. Cookson shut this down in favour for his mates putting together the dodgy tablet concept - http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-to-start-bike-scanning/

Couldn't make this *** up.

 

[samhocking]

I think the UCI were using the company already for their phone-based endoscope app/adapters anyway long before approaching them for the ipad app. Since around 2012 I think. They still use their apps today for the endoscopy exams on riders bikes.

2016

2015

 

[Beech Mtn]

https://twitter.com/lavuelta/status/904672897100161024