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#### miguelindurain111

Re: Re:

Parker said:
Freddythefrog said:
Sam you do not understand what they are doing or how electro-magents work. A permanent magnet is not needed. Vrajas was just showing the cutaway rim so that the morons did not say that he had planted super magents in it.
Could you please explain how these electro-magnets turn a wheel without the use of permanent magnets?

And if Varjas only cut away the rim to show nothing was hidden, why did he feel the need to keep his other wheel covered by bubble wrap? And why would he hide 'super magnets' if he wanted to show a negative reading on the tablet anyway - they would cause a positive reading?

Freddythefrog said:
By all means over-egg the pudding. The hub motor we were shown was not as big as a house but generated way more than the motors that will produce a race winning change.
Were you shown a hub motor? Where was this in the video. You were shown a wheel spinning around too fast to see anything and a wheel hidden by bubble wrap. Varjas told you it was a hub motor, but made sure not to show you it clearly. And you didn't question it.

Varjas tells us lots and shows us nothing
.
Yeah it's amazing how normally sceptical people seem to believe everything that support their preexisting beliefs...

#### Freddythefrog

Parker it is somewhat hard to reply to your post when you have clearly either not watched the video or watched it and failed to commit the content to any part of your memory.
The hub motor is shown in action from 1.50 to 2.38. The crankset is held as the hub motor continues to power the wheel. Vrajas states that it is capable of powers up to 3,000 w, yes like 10 x 300w like the power of a whole team, and it weighs 3.8 kg.

Let's do a sum, I will keep the numbers simple. We are going to divide two numbers by 20.
3,000 ÷ 20 = 150 W
3,800 g ÷ 20 = 190 g.
Now the ratios will not exactly be pro rata but most will get where I am going with this. A race result changing hub motor (40W) is achievable at a weight that could be hidden.

I am sure if you apply yourself you will be able to work out how one electromagent in a rim, can experience a force of attraction to another electromagnet placed in a stay, and then later, as it passes, repelled away, both pulsed with a timed current.

As to the bubble wrap. I can cut him some slack. There is something he does not want to show us. Given the systemic reluctance to deal with this problem I would not want to play all my cards at once.

Again look at the evidence - Cathy and Greg Lemond spelt it out in words a baby could understand - the UCI were not using the tablet in a way that a motor could be detected. An ex Tour winner tells us years ago what is factually correct. What did the UCI testers do ? Even their own commissioned test report tells them how to conduct an effective test. What do we get ? A boast that they have now conducted 40,000 tests and a lie that they have found just a single positive. "All's good - trust us ! "

I make that 40,000 completely useless tests even despite being told that the way they are testing is a complete waste of time. There is stupid and there is STUPID.

This isn't STUPID.

#### Parker

Re:

Freddythefrog said:
Parker it is somewhat hard to reply to your post when you have clearly either not watched the video or watched it and failed to commit the content to any part of your memory.
The hub motor is shown in action from 1.50 to 2.38. The crankset is held as the hub motor continues to power the wheel. Vrajas states that it is capable of powers up to 3,000 w, yes like 10 x 300w like the power of a whole team, and it weighs 3.8 kg.
No I saw that bit. All I saw was a wheel spinning around very fast. Too fast too see anything. I don't know if it was a hub motor and if it was how big it was (although there seemed to be a large black blur). This is because Varjas would rather tell you what it is, knowing that you want to believe him.

Freddythefrog said:
I am sure if you apply yourself you will be able to work out how one electromagent in a rim, can experience a force of attraction to another electromagnet placed in a stay, and then later, as it passes, repelled away, both pulsed with a timed current.
One electro-magnet? Is that all. No, you'll need a series of them all around the rim otherwise the interaction between the two magnets will be too small and infrequent to be of any use. And how big are these electromagnets, they will need to be larger and heavier than permanent magnets? And where is the power source going - they tend to be quite power hungry.

Freddythefrog said:
As to the bubble wrap. I can cut him some slack. There is something he does not want to show us. Given the systemic reluctance to deal with this problem I would not want to play all my cards at once.
How very convenient. Of course he tells us what it is. And again you believe.

The only thing he does show us is a supposed 'electro-magnetic rim' with nothing more than a circuit board stuck.

Freddythefrog said:
Again look at the evidence - Cathy and Greg Lemond spelt it out in words a baby could understand - the UCI were not using the tablet in a way that a motor could be detected. An ex Tour winner tells us years ago what is factually correct. What did the UCI testers do ? Even their own commissioned test report tells them how to conduct an effective test. What do we get ? A boast that they have now conducted 40,000 tests and a lie that they have found just a single positive. "All's good - trust us ! "
So the LeMonds are qualified engineers now are they. With all due respect the seem like the sort of people who think the moon landings were faked. I wouldn't be surprised if Varjas fleeces them for money somewhere along the line

#### DanielSong39

Re: Re:

miguelindurain111 said:
Yeah it's amazing how normally sceptical people seem to believe everything that support their preexisting beliefs...
Strawman arguments everywhere, and the above statement also appears to apply to people who believe that there are no motors in the pro peloton.

#### Benotti69

Re: Re:

miguelindurain111 said:
Parker said:
Freddythefrog said:
Sam you do not understand what they are doing or how electro-magents work. A permanent magnet is not needed. Vrajas was just showing the cutaway rim so that the morons did not say that he had planted super magents in it.
Could you please explain how these electro-magnets turn a wheel without the use of permanent magnets?

And if Varjas only cut away the rim to show nothing was hidden, why did he feel the need to keep his other wheel covered by bubble wrap? And why would he hide 'super magnets' if he wanted to show a negative reading on the tablet anyway - they would cause a positive reading?

Freddythefrog said:
By all means over-egg the pudding. The hub motor we were shown was not as big as a house but generated way more than the motors that will produce a race winning change.
Were you shown a hub motor? Where was this in the video. You were shown a wheel spinning around too fast to see anything and a wheel hidden by bubble wrap. Varjas told you it was a hub motor, but made sure not to show you it clearly. And you didn't question it.

Varjas tells us lots and shows us nothing
.
Yeah it's amazing how normally sceptical people seem to believe everything that support their preexisting beliefs...
History of the sport tells us that if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it is a duck, duckie

#### miguelindurain111

Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
miguelindurain111 said:
Parker said:
Freddythefrog said:
Sam you do not understand what they are doing or how electro-magents work. A permanent magnet is not needed. Vrajas was just showing the cutaway rim so that the morons did not say that he had planted super magents in it.
Could you please explain how these electro-magnets turn a wheel without the use of permanent magnets?

And if Varjas only cut away the rim to show nothing was hidden, why did he feel the need to keep his other wheel covered by bubble wrap? And why would he hide 'super magnets' if he wanted to show a negative reading on the tablet anyway - they would cause a positive reading?

Freddythefrog said:
By all means over-egg the pudding. The hub motor we were shown was not as big as a house but generated way more than the motors that will produce a race winning change.
Were you shown a hub motor? Where was this in the video. You were shown a wheel spinning around too fast to see anything and a wheel hidden by bubble wrap. Varjas told you it was a hub motor, but made sure not to show you it clearly. And you didn't question it.

Varjas tells us lots and shows us nothing
.
Yeah it's amazing how normally sceptical people seem to believe everything that support their preexisting beliefs...
History of the sport tells us that if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it is a duck, duckie
Actually it may be motorized duck toy as well :lol:

#### Freddythefrog

Re: Re:

Parker said:
No I saw that bit. All I saw was a wheel spinning around very fast. Too fast too see anything. I don't know if it was a hub motor and if it was how big it was (although there seemed to be a large black blur). This is because Varjas would rather tell you what it is, knowing that you want to believe him.
You got the power output, the view and the weight and the desscription and the video of it in action. AND you then accuse the Lemonds of being the type of people to believe the moon landings were fake. Take a look in a mirror, you might find the view interesting.

Parker said:
One electro-magnet? Is that all. No, you'll need a series of them all around the rim otherwise the interaction between the two magnets will be too small and infrequent to be of any use. And how big are these electromagnets, they will need to be larger and heavier than permanent magnets? And where is the power source going - they tend to be quite power hungry.
Did you not see the video of the rim and the series of cut outs with the series of electromagents in them? I think everybody else did. You just stated tht you had no idea how a motor could work without a permanent magent. I explained the principle for one interaction. I know I did not reference it back to the obvious video of the rim as I thought it was so obvious even the most limited would then know how that would work. Perhaps you are displaying the same reaction to having it spelt out for you as the testers are in being informed how they might use equipment if they were actually intending to discover something. "I know how this tablet should be used - I just like doing it my way - watch ! It's my tablet so there, you just leave me alone "

Parker said:
How very convenient. Of course he tells us what it is. And again you believe.
The only thing he does show us is a supposed 'electro-magnetic rim' with nothing more than a circuit board stuck.

Parker said:
So the LeMonds are qualified engineers now are they. With all due respect the seem like the sort of people who think the moon landings were faked. I wouldn't be surprised if Varjas fleeces them for money somewhere along the line
I think the Lemonds are acting like the majority of lay people would who, having read a copy of the UCI report on how the tablet is to be used if optimal efficiency in detection of 1 in 3 were to be achieved or had been instructed about its effective use by very simple demonstration, just as we saw in the video. They, the Lemonds, like other sane lay people would recognise that every single video of the UCI checking bikes at races shows the commissaires are not doing it like the UCI report says it should be done.

Not quite sure of the world you inhabit where one could read that report and think that the UCI testers were actually doing it correctly.

Not quite sure of the world you inhabit where one could disqualify the comments of the Lemonds on a very simple process on the basis that they were not qualified engineers.

#### thehog

BANNED
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Twitter has been a hoot today. There hasn't been one but several videos posted of UCI motor checks waving the iPad somewhere near a bike, most of them would do half the wheel, most would miss the hub and a lot of the time they would test when the bike was on the roof of car, which being metal and full of magnets would send off false readings. For the most part the tests wouldn't last more than a few seconds and the iPad was held a long way from the bike. There was even a video of today's ITT, whereby the teams were lining up to have their TT bikes measured on a jig which would be a perfect opportunity to also test for motors but the UCI thought not to do it in a perfect environment.

The video of the day was the UCI tester with the iPad down the back of his pants, not sure what reading the iPad gave in that position

And all this after the UCI released a press release that the Stade 2 documentary wasn't performing their tests to standard! Too funny!

#### Parker

Re: Re:

Freddythefrog said:
You got the power output, the view and the weight and the desscription and the video of it in action. AND you then accuse the Lemonds of being the type of people to believe the moon landings were fake. Take a look in a mirror, you might find the view interesting.
We didn't get a view. And the figures come from a single source - Varjas. Unsubstantiated and unchallenged. He says lots, but never backs it up with evidence. Why should I believe him?

Parker said:
Did you not see the video of the rim and the series of cut outs with the series of electromagents in them? I think everybody else did. You just stated tht you had no idea how a motor could work without a permanent magent. I explained the principle for one interaction. I know I did not reference it back to the obvious video of the rim as I thought it was so obvious even the most limited would then know how that would work. Perhaps you are displaying the same reaction to having it spelt out for you as the testers are in being informed how they might use equipment if they were actually intending to discover something. "I know how this tablet should be used - I just like doing it my way - watch ! It's my tablet so there, you just leave me alone "
Here's a screenshot. Where are the series of elctromagnets? The holes are empty. There is one white round thing that might be a single one - but that's going to do nothing

You're being conned. Varjas tells you plenty but shows you nothing. You believe him unconditionally, but i see him as cycling's version of Andrew Wakefield, a man exploiting people's lust for scandal.

#### thehog

BANNED
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Even the UCI know the tests don’t work...

UCI presidential challenger David Lappartient has called for an extension of the UCI’s current testing methods for hidden motors, saying that the Stade 2 TV report shows that what is being done is not sufficient.

“These tablet-based controls are necessary but simply aren’t enough,” he told the Stade 2 reporters, having seen the investigative report prior to its broadcast on Sunday. “They are supposed to detect 100% of cases, which results in no positive evidence of doping.

“I would like to think that I was wrong [about his previously doubts] but this report shows that I am right. In this case, all of these people need to be contacted so that by the 1st of January, we everything is in good order, and so the credibility of sports results can be assured. Let’s not delude ourselves in providing the professionals, as well as the media and the public, with an illusion of secure results.
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/09/lappartient-ucis-tablet-detectors-simply-arent-enough/

#### Parker

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

thehog said:
Even the UCI know the tests don’t work...

UCI presidential challenger David Lappartient has called for an extension of the UCI’s current testing methods for hidden motors, saying that the Stade 2 TV report shows that what is being done is not sufficient.

“These tablet-based controls are necessary but simply aren’t enough,” he told the Stade 2 reporters, having seen the investigative report prior to its broadcast on Sunday. “They are supposed to detect 100% of cases, which results in no positive evidence of doping.

“I would like to think that I was wrong [about his previously doubts] but this report shows that I am right. In this case, all of these people need to be contacted so that by the 1st of January, we everything is in good order, and so the credibility of sports results can be assured. Let’s not delude ourselves in providing the professionals, as well as the media and the public, with an illusion of secure results.
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/09/lappartient-ucis-tablet-detectors-simply-arent-enough/
If there's someone guaranteed to tell the truth, it's a man running for election.

(He's wasting his time though. This isn't something that bothers the electorate)

#### Freddythefrog

Parker you have not addressed your dsimissal of the Lemond's critique or the failure of the UCI to use the tablet as per their own report.

Don't write telling me what I do and don't take on trust. Your screen shot has one em exposed, We saw X rays of the rim with mutiple ems in the rim in the video.

I don't need Vrajas to stop the video of the hub motor and show it me piece by piece. Do a few google searches. A quick one showed that sale of ebikes with a variety of motor types went from around 70,000 units in 2014 to over 100,000 in 2015 in France alone. This is a big business. Commercial developments will be racing ahead !

My own experience in the Alps this year is that I observed a hire shop I have observed for nearly 20 years, that used to do road, MTB Xcountry and MTB donwhill has now converted such that the only non-ebikes they had were downhill bikes. Every single road bike and every single Xcountry MTB bike for hire was an ebike. Fact - they were everywhere.

Fact the UCI have not made testing independent.
Fact the UCI testers do not test effectively.
Fact - within the pro peloton a means to cheat exists, without effective detection.

Last time we had that, as Millar famously said of the rise of the EPO era, - suddenly riders with backsides as big as buses were passing him on the long Cols. A description of a phonomena never previously physically possible he now observed.

Fact - I know the body type of cyclists that pass and drop me on the cols. When a rider with a body type that looks like he is unfit and carrying excess weight passes not only myself, but also riders younger and fitter than myself, on the cols - like I have never ever seen before in 20 years riding in the Alps - I think it a fair assumption that rider has some form of mechanical assist.

It is a different world out there. I feel sorry for the people who have bought into the stories they have been told. The sandshoes, the debilitating disease that took so many years and so many experts to shake off, whenever it started, the dutiful domsetique, the 17.9% body fat (I never did get anyone to post up a picture of a pro cyclist with that level of body fat - despite multiple requests to the defenders of the faith). The marginal gains - so many - the fluffed pillows, the rounder wheels, the lack of water, the proper amount of water, even warming down. It was never said to not be plausible, everything was plausible but this was the route to fame and life changing fortune for a small group of individuals and you know what - just like Lance and the workers at his cancer charity - Lance didn't give a stuff about those who sold his story so effectively for him at Livestrong for all those years. They were just dumb-a**es to be used to strengthen his pack of lies from any counters. Lance least of anyone cared how much they got burnt when it all went wrong. That is the way of things.

Pretending that a peloton steeped in the art of the omerta for generations will draw a line in the sand about motors is irrational.

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Parker said:
thehog said:
Even the UCI know the tests don’t work...

UCI presidential challenger David Lappartient has called for an extension of the UCI’s current testing methods for hidden motors, saying that the Stade 2 TV report shows that what is being done is not sufficient.

“These tablet-based controls are necessary but simply aren’t enough,” he told the Stade 2 reporters, having seen the investigative report prior to its broadcast on Sunday. “They are supposed to detect 100% of cases, which results in no positive evidence of doping.

“I would like to think that I was wrong [about his previously doubts] but this report shows that I am right. In this case, all of these people need to be contacted so that by the 1st of January, we everything is in good order, and so the credibility of sports results can be assured. Let’s not delude ourselves in providing the professionals, as well as the media and the public, with an illusion of secure results.
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/09/lappartient-ucis-tablet-detectors-simply-arent-enough/
If there's someone guaranteed to tell the truth, it's a man running for election.

(He's wasting his time though. This isn't something that bothers the electorate)
Based on the tone of your previous posts I presume you are being sarcastic. If so, can you point out the untruthful bit. Most rational people can see that the testing mechanism is a PR tool but you appear to be suggesting that Lappartient is telling a lie in claiming that the current testing procedures are inadequate. Even if motors weren't being used in the pro peloton why would it be a negative to carry out more testing if there is nothing to fear.

Froome claimed yesterday that bikes have been disassembled for years yet the UCI claimed that further testing only takes place if the tablet detects the existence of a motor in the first instance. We know that Barfield previously tipped off manufacturers about impending bike checks and that the UCI ignored advice of French police in refusing to have wheels weighed even though it takes 5 seconds to remove them.

Excellent last post Freddy. Anyone watching Brailsford interviewed on Eurosport today seen a man who looked and sounded distracted, none of that cocksure attitude that he had up until 12 months ago. The wagons are circling and this motor story will run and run.

#### thehog

BANNED
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Parker said:
thehog said:
Even the UCI know the tests don’t work...

UCI presidential challenger David Lappartient has called for an extension of the UCI’s current testing methods for hidden motors, saying that the Stade 2 TV report shows that what is being done is not sufficient.

“These tablet-based controls are necessary but simply aren’t enough,” he told the Stade 2 reporters, having seen the investigative report prior to its broadcast on Sunday. “They are supposed to detect 100% of cases, which results in no positive evidence of doping.

“I would like to think that I was wrong [about his previously doubts] but this report shows that I am right. In this case, all of these people need to be contacted so that by the 1st of January, we everything is in good order, and so the credibility of sports results can be assured. Let’s not delude ourselves in providing the professionals, as well as the media and the public, with an illusion of secure results.
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/09/lappartient-ucis-tablet-detectors-simply-arent-enough/
If there's someone guaranteed to tell the truth, it's a man running for election.

(He's wasting his time though. This isn't something that bothers the electorate)
Based on the tone of your previous posts I presume you are being sarcastic. If so, can you point out the untruthful bit. Most rational people can see that the testing mechanism is a PR tool but you appear to be suggesting that Lappartient is telling a lie in claiming that the current testing procedures are inadequate. Even if motors weren't being used in the pro peloton why would it be a negative to carry out more testing if there is nothing to fear.

Froome claimed yesterday that bikes have been disassembled for years yet the UCI claimed that further testing only takes place if the tablet detects the existence of a motor in the first instance. We know that Barfield previously tipped off manufacturers about impending bike checks and that the UCI ignored advice of French police in refusing to have wheels weighed even though it takes 5 seconds to remove them.

Cookson is also running for election so according to Parker he’s not telling the truth either

#### Parker

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Based on the tone of your previous posts I presume you are being sarcastic. If so, can you point out the untruthful bit. Most rational people can see that the testing mechanism is a PR tool but you appear to be suggesting that Lappartient is telling a lie in claiming that the current testing procedures are inadequate. Even if motors weren't being used in the pro peloton why would it be a negative to carry out more testing if there is nothing to fear.

Froome claimed yesterday that bikes have been disassembled for years yet the UCI claimed that further testing only takes place if the tablet detects the existence of a motor in the first instance. We know that Barfield previously tipped off manufacturers about impending bike checks and that the UCI ignored advice of French police in refusing to have wheels weighed even though it takes 5 seconds to remove them.
It's not necessarily untruthful. But a standard electioneering technique for a non-incumbent to to create an imaginary foe, in this case motors. He's not saying that the current testing iis inadequate - he's promising more expensive, flashier testing (X-rays etc). Testing that he will never deliver if elected because in reality he doesn't believe motors are being used.

(I'm guessing your still waiting for the Mexicans to pay for a wall or an extra £350m a week to be paid to the NHS)

#### Parker

Re:

Freddythefrog said:
Parker you have not addressed your dsimissal of the Lemond's critique or the failure of the UCI to use the tablet as per their own report.

Don't write telling me what I do and don't take on trust. Your screen shot has one em exposed, We saw X rays of the rim with mutiple ems in the rim in the video.

<Snip>
None of your answer addresses anything about the motors and Varjas. If Varjas told you Armstrong or Sky was using a perpetual motion motor you would believe him. You are so enamoured by your own cynicism that you are fooling yourself.

Scepticism goes both ways. If you don't question Varjas and his obviuos nonsense, then you are worse than the 'fanboys' you deride.

Freddythefrog said:
Fact - I know the body type of cyclists that pass and drop me on the cols. When a rider with a body type that looks like he is unfit and carrying excess weight passes not only myself, but also riders younger and fitter than myself, on the cols - like I have never ever seen before in 20 years riding in the Alps - I think it a fair assumption that rider has some form of mechanical assist.
And here's the crux of it. The delusion that you are better than you actually are. Anyone better than you must be cheating.

#### Freddythefrog

Re: Re:

Parker said:
And here's the crux of it. The delusion that you are better than you actually are. Anyone better than you must be cheating.
Parker - you have missed out step one - read the post before constructing your reply. Failure to take this step may lead some to thinking the views presented in the reply somewhat biggoted.

#### Parker

Re: Re:

Freddythefrog said:
Parker said:
And here's the crux of it. The delusion that you are better than you actually are. Anyone better than you must be cheating.
Parker - you have missed out step one - read the post before constructing your reply. Failure to take this step may lead some to thinking the views presented in the reply somewhat biggoted.
No I read it all. You basically said anyone who is faster than you and your friends has a motor. You're delusional. Do you really think no-one can be better than you?

This is what your train of thought has been reduced to. From Varjas as some sort of motors 'Deep Throat', to complaining that a fatter more talented man beat you up a hill.

#### Freddythefrog

Re: Re:

Parker said:
Freddythefrog said:
Parker said:
And here's the crux of it. The delusion that you are better than you actually are. Anyone better than you must be cheating.
Parker - you have missed out step one - read the post before constructing your reply. Failure to take this step may lead some to thinking the views presented in the reply somewhat biggoted.
No I read it all. You basically said anyone who is faster than you and your friends has a motor. You're delusional. Do you really think no-one can be better than you?
Now you invent both imaginary friends for me to ride with and an imaginary ego ! I did every ride alone and never came across anyone I knew. Stop inventing stuff - it is kind of weird.

Of the ebikes that passed me. Some were the obvious ones, with the battery pack clear, but others ? I could only draw on 20 years experience. I sort of know the types of men, boys, women and girls that go faster than me by now.

As to who might be delusional, you might find that mirror useful again.

#### thehog

BANNED
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Froome’s extra 40 watts right there. Cookson simply isn’t serious about motor doping, more intent on issuing press releases and selfies

The UCI has also carried out a limited number of scans with thermal imaging cameras, as have the French authorities. It said that it carried out 4,000 tests during the Tour de France, yet data from the Vuelta a España appears not to be available.

A request to the Vuelta organisers this week for information on the number and type of examinations carried out was not answered.

Without such information, it is impossible to know if the Vuelta is being policed at anything like the same level as the Tour and, consequently, to have full faith in the results

#### jmdirt

Re:

DanielSong39 said:
Frankly I think most of these arguments, discussions, and documentaries don't accomplish anything meaningful.

All you have to do is look at a video of Cancellara going up a 19% cobbled section at 25km/h.

If you're not convinced by that then no amount of evidence will ever convince you.
That was a DT/BB motor, we know that exists, but that ruse is up. The conversation has moved on...

#### jmdirt

No one has explained how to get the skewer through a hub motor...