Motor doping thread

[red_flanders]

For those who feel Sagan is motor doping, I’m wondering what you make of Paris-Roubaix this year. I don’t think he had any bike changes, but I could be wrong. Pretty impressive performance, endurance and power-wise. Seems like he’s able to generate the power needed over time to make the race in the biggest classics now.

Seems unlikely someone with his visibility would start and end the biggest race of the year with a motor. What do you think?

 

[jmdirt]

Off bike topic, but how other sport handle cheating. Reigning Grand National Champion Jared Mees just got busted for tire doping (adding chems to make the tire work "better") in the AMA American Flat Track Championship. His "penalty" was losing his win, points, and money from the race that the tire was taken from (last week in Atlanta). This weekend he won the event in Ft. Worth.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Off bike topic, but how other sport handle cheating. Reigning Grand National Champion Jared Mees just got busted for tire doping (adding chems to make the tire work "better") in the AMA American Flat Track Championship. His "penalty" was losing his win, points, and money from the race that the tire was taken from (last week in Atlanta). This weekend he won the event in Ft. Worth.

Do they put it mostly on the sides of the tires to improve 'grip' in the tight turns at the ends of the track? Or how does it work? Clearly being able to take a tighter line in the curves without crashing would be worth a lot of time overall. Is there any use for this in bicycle racing, because as far as I know, there are no UCI regulations about the rubber the bike tires are made of, or whether chemical goop is applied to the rubber. In disciplines like cyclocross and MTB there are some UCI rules about tire width and that the tires can't have spikes.

I think that these rules aren't really required in cycling. The trade off between grip and rolling resistance means that requirements for bike tyres are different as cyclists effectively have an engine that will fatigue. I know that extra grip no doubt means extra fuel for cars but I think the trade off is less. For example, it might help descending a hill to have increased grip where gravity can help reduce the fatigue cost, but it's going to be detrimental on the flat/going uphill.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Off bike topic, but how other sport handle cheating. Reigning Grand National Champion Jared Mees just got busted for tire doping (adding chems to make the tire work "better") in the AMA American Flat Track Championship. His "penalty" was losing his win, points, and money from the race that the tire was taken from (last week in Atlanta). This weekend he won the event in Ft. Worth.

Do they put it mostly on the sides of the tires to improve 'grip' in the tight turns at the ends of the track? Or how does it work? Clearly being able to take a tighter line in the curves without crashing would be worth a lot of time overall. Is there any use for this in bicycle racing, because as far as I know, there are no UCI regulations about the rubber the bike tires are made of, or whether chemical goop is applied to the rubber. In disciplines like cyclocross and MTB there are some UCI rules about tire width and that the tires can't have spikes.

I'm not sure what the process is. Here is part of the AFT release: “a statistically- significant presence of several chemicals known to be used in motorsports to alter tire compounds, thereby enhancing performance. These include: Hexanedioic acid bis(ethylhexyl) ester, Dodecanoic acid and 1,3-Benzenedicarboxylic acid, bis(2-ethylhexyl) ester.”

 

[Bolder]

Cheating has long been accepted in Nascar as just part of the sport. It's always been a cat and mouse game with the inspectors and the car/engine builders. There have been some penalties but no "death sentences." However, motorcycle and auto racing are already motorized sports, so not sure that analogy works...trying to think of another human-powered sports where motors have been used to cheat...would be cool if a rowing team used an electric propeller!

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

Cheating has long been accepted in Nascar as just part of the sport. It's always been a cat and mouse game with the inspectors and the car/engine builders. There have been some penalties but no "death sentences." However, motorcycle and auto racing are already motorized sports, so not sure that analogy works...trying to think of another human-powered sports where motors have been used to cheat...would be cool if a rowing team used an electric propeller!

https://materialdesigns.wordpress.com/2010/07/02/flubber-basketball-shoe/
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/TheAbsentMindedProfessor

 

[TubularBills]

Sagan Attack similar to Cancellara's Velocity?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ygpaL0xfbA

Pure juice.

 

[Mr.38%]

Sagan Attack similar to Cancellara's Velocity?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ygpaL0xfbA

Pure juice.

No. Nils said he could have gone with him but didn't because a) he thought Sagan was just testing and b) Thorsten Schmidt told him to let QS do the work and he should save his legs for the "real final".

 

[DanielSong39]

Not even close to Cancellara 2010. He took off like a rocket 50km from the finish!

 

[pastronef]

https://www.twitter.com/copelandbrent/status/998813772616749056

They X-rayed 5 bikes while I was there, if I’m not mistaken it was the first five of the stage ......it was a longer process than I expected but interesting to see how thorough it was as they check every part of the bike incl. frame, hubs, wheels, crankset etc.

They do the testing in the same area of the anti doping in the finish line area, it’s compulsory for each test to have a team representative to be present and to witness the testing, testing was thorough, it’s a complete X-ray where you see internally of every component

 

[ontheroad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qN3oWJ-2pE

Go to 42:00 minutes. Hamliton in little doubt that motors have been used by top riders in the big races, quelle surprise!

 

[Cycle Chic]

Would it be possible to have a motor which could be put on and off the bike by the rider ? this would explain how motors are being used but not detected.

 

[DanielSong39]

When Cancellara goes up Muur, you can work out the exact time the motor is activated.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

Would it be possible to have a motor which could be put on and off the bike by the rider ? this would explain how motors are being used but not detected.

The motor could be hidden in the hub, but all the other electronic bits (wiring, battery, electronics, motor driver) would have to be in the frame. But the main reason motors haven't been found is that a la Cancellara they were too new to be tested for. And the iPads were a joke, not actual testing or anyone with e-shifting would have been positive. And staying one step ahead would mean reluctance motors with no magnets. And now with x-rays, you just have to make sure that the bike that gets checked isn't the one with the motor.

John Swanson

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Would it be possible to have a motor which could be put on and off the bike by the rider ? this would explain how motors are being used but not detected.

The motor could be hidden in the hub, but all the other electronic bits (wiring, battery, electronics, motor driver) would have to be in the frame. But the main reason motors haven't been found is that a la Cancellara they were too new to be tested for. And the iPads were a joke, not actual testing or anyone with e-shifting would have been positive. And staying one step ahead would mean reluctance motors with no magnets. And now with x-rays, you just have to make sure that the bike that gets checked isn't the one with the motor.

John Swanson

When you say "just" are you suggesting it's easy to swap out? Just curious either way, and if it would be easy, how? I can't figure it out.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Would it be possible to have a motor which could be put on and off the bike by the rider ? this would explain how motors are being used but not detected.

The motor could be hidden in the hub, but all the other electronic bits (wiring, battery, electronics, motor driver) would have to be in the frame. But the main reason motors haven't been found is that a la Cancellara they were too new to be tested for. And the iPads were a joke, not actual testing or anyone with e-shifting would have been positive. And staying one step ahead would mean reluctance motors with no magnets. And now with x-rays, you just have to make sure that the bike that gets checked isn't the one with the motor.

John Swanson

When you say "just" are you suggesting it's easy to swap out? Just curious either way, and if it would be easy, how? I can't figure it out.

I think you can figure it out. You just need to not finish on said bike or have a wheel change prior to completing the stage. Considering the x-ray ice cream van is so slow at checking and is being used sparingly if at all. It’s BAU it appears with the Candy Crush iPads in full swing.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Would it be possible to have a motor which could be put on and off the bike by the rider ? this would explain how motors are being used but not detected.

The motor could be hidden in the hub, but all the other electronic bits (wiring, battery, electronics, motor driver) would have to be in the frame. But the main reason motors haven't been found is that a la Cancellara they were too new to be tested for. And the iPads were a joke, not actual testing or anyone with e-shifting would have been positive. And staying one step ahead would mean reluctance motors with no magnets. And now with x-rays, you just have to make sure that the bike that gets checked isn't the one with the motor.

John Swanson

When you say "just" are you suggesting it's easy to swap out? Just curious either way, and if it would be easy, how? I can't figure it out.

I think you can figure it out. You just need to not finish on said bike or have a wheel change. Considering the x-ray ice cream van is so slow at checking and is being used sparingly. BAU it appears.

I get the first bit, but it doesn't help on a mountain top finish. And the report I heard about the machine strongly asserted that the first 5 or so, can't recall exactly, were scanned as soon as they crossed the finish line. Doping control and scan, immediately. So that's where I tend to wonder how you'd get around that.

And mountain top finishes are where you would need the motor the most, presumably.

 

[rghysens]

Re: Re:

Would it be possible to have a motor which could be put on and off the bike by the rider ? this would explain how motors are being used but not detected.

The motor could be hidden in the hub, but all the other electronic bits (wiring, battery, electronics, motor driver) would have to be in the frame. But the main reason motors haven't been found is that a la Cancellara they were too new to be tested for. And the iPads were a joke, not actual testing or anyone with e-shifting would have been positive. And staying one step ahead would mean reluctance motors with no magnets. And now with x-rays, you just have to make sure that the bike that gets checked isn't the one with the motor.

John Swanson

When you say "just" are you suggesting it's easy to swap out? Just curious either way, and if it would be easy, how? I can't figure it out.

I think you can figure it out. You just need to not finish on said bike or have a wheel change. Considering the x-ray ice cream van is so slow at checking and is being used sparingly. BAU it appears.

I get the first bit, but it doesn't help on a mountain top finish. And the report I heard about the machine strongly asserted that the first 5 or so, can't recall exactly, were scanned as soon as they crossed the finish line. Doping control and scan, immediately. So that's where I tend to wonder how you'd get around that.

And mountain top finishes are where you would need the motor the most, presumably.

Unless you use your motored bike in the run in, to save your legs. Then swap your motored bike with a proper one and create havoc with your fresh legs. Imagine swapping bikes before finestre, motor up the climb and swapping back to your regular one in the valley leading to Jafferau. We've seen strange bike changes before.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Unless you use your motored bike in the run in, to save your legs. Then swap your motored bike with a proper one and create havoc with your fresh legs. Imagine swapping bikes before finestre, motor up the climb and swapping back to your regular one in the valley leading to Jafferau. We've seen strange bike changes before.

Granted, definitely. But I haven’t noticed anything like that in this race. But I could have certainly missed some.and it would reduce the advantage somewhat.

 

[DanielSong39]

Motorbike in action! Froome wins the Giro!

 

[Cycle Chic]

theres no bike swap going on - Froomes always seen on race radio just before he attacks - I think theres a remote controlled device being used to activate the motor....sorry but its the only plausible reason so far

 

[Pantani Attacks]

https://twitter.com/oufeh/status/1000324384907841536

Like seriously, cmon now.

 

[CTQ]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-confirms-chris-froomes-bike-x-rayed-for-mechanical-doping-after-giro-ditalia-solo-win/

 

[DanielSong39]

And UCI will claim that there's nothing to see here.

This stuff isn't rocket science.

 

[jmdirt]

As I've stated many times on here and elsewhere, there have been motors used in the pro tour. The only way to argue that Froome used a motor yesterday is with a UCI conspiracy. Did he change bikes in the last 100 K (or at all for that matter)? His bike was xrayed after the finish. 1) I think that there are too many people involved for a conspiracy, 2) It seems like the UCI would love to nail CF with a motor to kill two birds with one stone, 3) why would CF be the UCI golden child (all along, not just now)?