Motor doping thread

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Depends on intensity and wavelength.

In diagnostic settings 1.3 mm is specified, for shielding for staff.

The aprons you get to wear are about 0.25 to 0.35 mm equivalent. Heavy enough to be an issue, but probably not insurmountable (given some bikes have weights already to meet minimum race weight)

But of course having a dense patch (from lead) just where a motor would be, would just be inviting a manual inspection.*



*If they wanted to actually find anything

You could rely on a basic social hack: if all bikes have lead paint, then all bikes will have a dense patch all over (I'm not suggesting you just paint the one bit of the seat tube, with tongue firmly in cheek, you paint the rest of the bike the same) and if all bikes have a dense patch all over, all will have to be manually inspected, and so you're back to square one. With the UCI responding by increasing the strength of their machines, the teams responding by adding more coats of paint, a cold war arms race then develops until one side cracks. Or the frame cracks under the weight of all that lead paint. Or the UCI breaks the cycle by reducing the weight allowance and actually having a super low max weight allowance. Which is probably exactly what the industry wants anyway. And is probably why they've been talking up this threat of motors all this time. It's all just a long game to get the weight rules revised...there are no motors, never have been...

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re:

Yea like the baggage claim xrays. I guess the idea sounds better in my head.

It would actually be fairly trivial engineering to make a "pass through" scanner like the airport ones.

Conveyor belt with brackets to hold the bikes upright, and put them on one at a time and move them through automatically.


It just wouldn't exactly be portable...

 

[SHAD0W93]

That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage

The electronic tags are cool too.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Yea like the baggage claim xrays. I guess the idea sounds better in my head.

It would actually be fairly trivial engineering to make a "pass through" scanner like the airport ones.

Conveyor belt with brackets to hold the bikes upright, and put them on one at a time and move them through automatically.


It just wouldn't exactly be portable...

The problem isn't the scanning, it's the lack of time logistically to gather the bikes, scan and return them while teams are trying to get to the next stage asap. At an airport you and your luggage are together in the same place anyway for several hours. At a start of finish line, several hundred bikes and a few thousand wheels are spread across several teams cars they are physically fixed to, mechanics working on them, locked in trucks and neutral service after a race over a few hundred square metres. There's no need to scan all the bikes and wheels. Just scan those in the points and then a random selection that get chaperoned is all you need, same as is done currently.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage

The electronic tags are cool too.

You can’t drive through, you’d need fairly high energy x-rays so you can’t have people in it every time you do it. You’d need them to get out. Also, not every frame and wheel is carried on/in the cars so you’d need to make it big enough to drive the trucks through unless everything is going to get wheeled in and out. It would be a logistical nightmare.

What would be good is if they scanned the top 3 on the stage, the top 3 on GT and the teams of the top 3 on GT. Expand it out to the helpers. The top 3s can be done while they are in anti-doping control and the team makes as they come in. It’s a maximum of 27 bikes (24 for teams and GC top 3 and max 3 more for stage winners).

 

[SHAD0W93]

That's a good idea.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage

The electronic tags are cool too.

You can’t drive through, you’d need fairly high energy x-rays so you can’t have people in it every time you do it. You’d need them to get out. Also, not every frame and wheel is carried on/in the cars so you’d need to make it big enough to drive the trucks through unless everything is going to get wheeled in and out. It would be a logistical nightmare.

What would be good is if they scanned the top 3 on the stage, the top 3 on GT and the teams of the top 3 on GT. Expand it out to the helpers. The top 3s can be done while they are in anti-doping control and the team makes as they come in. It’s a maximum of 27 bikes (24 for teams and GC top 3 and max 3 more for stage winners).

That's basically how bike checks are already performed by UCI before and after a race. They'll just add X-Ray after the usual weigh-in, jig inspections and magnetic & ferrous metal detection done currently.

This video shows how this is currently done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw4_Gk36_ik

 

[wansteadimp]

Re: Re:

That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage

The electronic tags are cool too.

You can’t drive through, you’d need fairly high energy x-rays so you can’t have people in it every time you do it. You’d need them to get out. Also, not every frame and wheel is carried on/in the cars so you’d need to make it big enough to drive the trucks through unless everything is going to get wheeled in and out. It would be a logistical nightmare.

What would be good is if they scanned the top 3 on the stage, the top 3 on GT and the teams of the top 3 on GT. Expand it out to the helpers. The top 3s can be done while they are in anti-doping control and the team makes as they come in. It’s a maximum of 27 bikes (24 for teams and GC top 3 and max 3 more for stage winners).

I'd add anyone that doesn't finish with the correct transponder - the bike you finished on and the one with your transponder on to be checked.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage

The electronic tags are cool too.

You can’t drive through, you’d need fairly high energy x-rays so you can’t have people in it every time you do it. You’d need them to get out. Also, not every frame and wheel is carried on/in the cars so you’d need to make it big enough to drive the trucks through unless everything is going to get wheeled in and out. It would be a logistical nightmare.

What would be good is if they scanned the top 3 on the stage, the top 3 on GT and the teams of the top 3 on GT. Expand it out to the helpers. The top 3s can be done while they are in anti-doping control and the team makes as they come in. It’s a maximum of 27 bikes (24 for teams and GC top 3 and max 3 more for stage winners).

I'd add anyone that doesn't finish with the correct transponder - the bike you finished on and the one with your transponder on to be checked.

Possibly yes, it would depend how many people usually do this. I'm guessing not many, but if 50%+ of the peloton do it then it's unlikely to be feasible. It may also depend on when people reach the finish.

 

[Bardamu]

Don't feel like riding all pages in this thread, but what is the general consensus here regarding Spartacus and moto doping?

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Don't feel like riding all pages in this thread, but what is the general consensus here regarding Spartacus and moto doping?

Split depending on who is posting in the thread at the time.

 

[pastronef]

@ulif
“It is not just the wheels, having a motor there involves a bike also. They have to create the field,”


HUB MOTORS
But he knows that. The guy who changed T-Mobile in a “clean team”.
IS THERE NO ONE ELSE???
Just someone, anyone without blood on hands.

https://www.twitter.com/ulif/status/979104876042051585

 

[miguelindurain111]

Someone already discovered a hub motor suitable for pro bikes or are they still fantasy?

 

[pastronef]

Re:

Someone already discovered a hub motor suitable for pro bikes or are they still fantasy?

https://twitter.com/EwonSprokler/status/978261157277569025

I think they could be used. obviously not yet found.
I am halfway between Ewon´s pov who sees a motor in every race every bike everywhere and others pov who says let´s wait for something more believable than Varjas claims.

what I really want to know is in as Ewon says, motors have been used for more than 30 years, why just now we are talking so much about them?

 

[miguelindurain111]

Lol, those images prove nothing.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage

The electronic tags are cool too.

You can’t drive through, you’d need fairly high energy x-rays so you can’t have people in it every time you do it. You’d need them to get out. Also, not every frame and wheel is carried on/in the cars so you’d need to make it big enough to drive the trucks through unless everything is going to get wheeled in and out. It would be a logistical nightmare.

What would be good is if they scanned the top 3 on the stage, the top 3 on GT and the teams of the top 3 on GT. Expand it out to the helpers. The top 3s can be done while they are in anti-doping control and the team makes as they come in. It’s a maximum of 27 bikes (24 for teams and GC top 3 and max 3 more for stage winners).

I'd add anyone that doesn't finish with the correct transponder - the bike you finished on and the one with your transponder on to be checked.

Possibly yes, it would depend how many people usually do this. I'm guessing not many, but if 50%+ of the peloton do it then it's unlikely to be feasible. It may also depend on when people reach the finish.

Comm already know who has changed bikes in the race. That's why all the fuss over Aqua Blue the other month. Basically you have to change bikes in view of the comm.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Comm already know who has changed bikes in the race. That's why all the fuss over Aqua Blue the other month. Basically you have to change bikes in view of the comm.

Not what happened:

President of the race jury Jean-Pierre Coppenolle explained after the race that while the team had been allowed to go up the road to give them time to set-up the bike for Blythe, the bike needed to be delivered from the team car and not from the side of the road, which is what happened.

"The team manager of Blythe asked me if he could go to the front of the bunch to prepare the bike. I said ok, I understand because the new system with the brakes is not easy," said Coppenolle. "He went to the front and prepared the bike but for the changing of the bike it must happen from the behind the bunch and from the car, and only from the car. He gave him the bike but from the ground, that is not allowed in the rules."

And if you have to wait for a comm to be present to change bikes, you could be waiting a bloody long time...think about it.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re:

Don't feel like riding all pages in this thread, but what is the general consensus here regarding Spartacus and moto doping?

Gilbert didn't Menton his name, but it was obvious he was accusing cancellara of moto doping.

 

[Bardamu]

Didn't van Avermaet vaguely accuse Cancellara as well in Extra Time Koers one time?

It's obvious anyway that Karl Vannieuwkerke is not that proud of his Cancellara fanclub anymore.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage

The electronic tags are cool too.

You can’t drive through, you’d need fairly high energy x-rays so you can’t have people in it every time you do it. You’d need them to get out. Also, not every frame and wheel is carried on/in the cars so you’d need to make it big enough to drive the trucks through unless everything is going to get wheeled in and out. It would be a logistical nightmare.

What would be good is if they scanned the top 3 on the stage, the top 3 on GT and the teams of the top 3 on GT. Expand it out to the helpers. The top 3s can be done while they are in anti-doping control and the team makes as they come in. It’s a maximum of 27 bikes (24 for teams and GC top 3 and max 3 more for stage winners).

I'd add anyone that doesn't finish with the correct transponder - the bike you finished on and the one with your transponder on to be checked.

Possibly yes, it would depend how many people usually do this. I'm guessing not many, but if 50%+ of the peloton do it then it's unlikely to be feasible. It may also depend on when people reach the finish.

Comm already know who has changed bikes in the race. That's why all the fuss over Aqua Blue the other month. Basically you have to change bikes in view of the comm.

Thank you for the completely irrelevant point.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

Someone already discovered a hub motor suitable for pro bikes or are they still fantasy?

Speaking in technical terms, they are definitely plausible if constrained to ~40 Watts. The technical hurdles are pretty low for a small group with the needed skills and a budget.

The key issues are to maximize the space inside the hub (tungsten axle, inner bushings rather than bearings, etc) and selecting a motor type that doesn't need gearing such as a stepper or a many, many pole DC. Make it a reluctance motor and you don't need a clutch mechanism to prevent back emf.

The rest is just prototyping until you get the performance specs, including concealment. Then comes the months and months of road testing, breaking things, and iterating.

John Swanson

 

[miguelindurain111]

So they are still fantasy unlike Vivax-type motors. Thanks.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

So they are still fantasy unlike Vivax-type motors. Thanks.

We have no idea. Generally if things are possible and the economics work out, they become real in short order.

Unlike vivax style motors, which have some appeal to a general market because of the power they can generate, hub motors are inherently limited and really have a market narrowed only to cheating racers. This dictates that the market is small and the price is high, and any marketing will be very private and direct to the individual user.

In other words, hub motors are possible and therefore likely, but will be extremely limited in scope. This could very well mean that nobody uses them. Or that they don't exist! But... I've priced out the development and for roughly $120,000 I can get you a working prototype that hits specs. Even if I'm off by a factor of 3 in terms of cost, would that be worth it to someone? Would they take the risk? Do the economics work out?

John Swanson

 

[ScienceIsCool]

I should have mentioned that one tell-tale sign of hub motors in general use would be the adoption of a particular wheel system or hub by individual riders. Especially where it deviates from the normal sponsor. That's because any hub motor would be intrinsically designed around a single hub. I have no idea if this is the case in the general peloton.

John Swanson

 

[Sestriere]

Re: Re:

That's why I thought if it was like an big rig or big rv that you can drive through with the scanners on each side and the roof to scan all the bikes at the same time and than drive to the next stage

The electronic tags are cool too.

You can’t drive through, you’d need fairly high energy x-rays so you can’t have people in it every time you do it. You’d need them to get out. Also, not every frame and wheel is carried on/in the cars so you’d need to make it big enough to drive the trucks through unless everything is going to get wheeled in and out. It would be a logistical nightmare.

What would be good is if they scanned the top 3 on the stage, the top 3 on GT and the teams of the top 3 on GT. Expand it out to the helpers. The top 3s can be done while they are in anti-doping control and the team makes as they come in. It’s a maximum of 27 bikes (24 for teams and GC top 3 and max 3 more for stage winners).

Interestingly, I just read about such a scanner in a completely unrelated subject. In the port of Boston they recently installed some of these devices to control the imported goods without actually having to access and test them diectly. They detect the secondary x-rays which are characteristic for every element with what it is possible to e.g. distinguish white powder from white powder..
To get back to topic, there are actually x-ray scanners which are big enough to accomodate whole trucks but they are of course stationary at port exit. I suspect it could be tricky to make those trasportable, however, if you managed to do that, the teams could just drive their cars and trucks through the scanner in the morning and head off to the race while some people analyze the data.
The story I read was in the current National Geographic magazine, by the way (April 2018, at least in Germany).