Motor doping thread

[jmdirt]

Re:

Well this is super unimpressive.

We already know that the iPads are useless, so there's no need to keep using them. And the x-ray machine is a boondoggle. Let's say there's 200 riders at a race and 100 spare bikes. If it takes 1 minute to set up and scan a bike, that's 300 minutes of work! I really doubt a tech is going to scan bikes for five hours non-stop before a race. The cost would be outrageous. So only a few bikes will get scanned at select races. Useless.

John Swanson

No need to scan all bikes, just the top 10, (plus bike change), and 10 random. So that's 30 ish bikes at the end of the race.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Well this is super unimpressive.

We already know that the iPads are useless, so there's no need to keep using them. And the x-ray machine is a boondoggle. Let's say there's 200 riders at a race and 100 spare bikes. If it takes 1 minute to set up and scan a bike, that's 300 minutes of work! I really doubt a tech is going to scan bikes for five hours non-stop before a race. The cost would be outrageous. So only a few bikes will get scanned at select races. Useless.

John Swanson

I honestly thought it would be a large truck to get 20-30 bikes done at one time. This thing is stupid. Even if it worked 100% it’s just not practical. They are going to have to use the iPads and this machine for target testing specific riders.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Well this is super unimpressive.

We already know that the iPads are useless, so there's no need to keep using them. And the x-ray machine is a boondoggle. Let's say there's 200 riders at a race and 100 spare bikes. If it takes 1 minute to set up and scan a bike, that's 300 minutes of work! I really doubt a tech is going to scan bikes for five hours non-stop before a race. The cost would be outrageous. So only a few bikes will get scanned at select races. Useless.

John Swanson

No need to scan all bikes, just the top 10, (plus bike change), and 10 random. So that's 30 ish bikes at the end of the race.

I can already think of a few ways to game the system. This isn't like drug testing because while the rider remains constant throughout the race, equipment can be and is switched out.

For example, you could start the race with a fully checked bike. Ten kilometers in, you get a "flat" or a "brake problem" and get a replacement bike. Vroome, Vroome! Enjoy your race and at an advantageous moment, suffer another "mechanical" and ride home on a clean bike.

The only way to prevent that kind of cheating is to test 100% of all bikes and spares prior to the race and tag them, followed by storing them in a staging area to prevent tampering. Those would be the only bikes allowed on the road and in team cars. Any other problem would get handled by neutral service.

And thermal cameras are a distraction at best because the necessary protocols are prohibitive. For example, what if a thermal camera operator sees a glowing bottom bracket? Does he stop the rider in question - ruining their race - and seize the bike for testing? Does the operator instead note down the rider number for testing at the finish? If so, what do you do if the rider says "Nope. That's not me on the thermal camera. Prove it is"? What if they withdraw from the race after being obviously scanned with the thermal camera? What if they have a "mechanical" and switch bikes? And who sets the threshold temperature difference that triggers a "positive"?

Add onto that sorry pile the iPads. There's simply no reason to use them. Even if they worked 100%, I can guarantee that everyone would have switched to reluctance motors. There's ZERO magnetic field until it's running.

John Swanson

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

The only way to prevent that kind of cheating is to test 100% of all bikes and spares prior to the race and tag them, followed by storing them in a staging area to prevent tampering. Those would be the only bikes allowed on the road and in team cars. Any other problem would get handled by neutral service.

I think the idea of tagging is good, you could certainly tag all the bikes and test a random subset of them, plus all the bikes from the top 10 riders (as suggested above) and all the jersey wearers. Nothing is going to be perfect, but there's no need to test 100% of bikes. If they're all tagged and inspected for tags atop the team cars you're really going to eliminate 99% of the potential issue.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Well this is super unimpressive.

We already know that the iPads are useless, so there's no need to keep using them. And the x-ray machine is a boondoggle. Let's say there's 200 riders at a race and 100 spare bikes. If it takes 1 minute to set up and scan a bike, that's 300 minutes of work! I really doubt a tech is going to scan bikes for five hours non-stop before a race. The cost would be outrageous. So only a few bikes will get scanned at select races. Useless.

John Swanson

No need to scan all bikes, just the top 10, (plus bike change), and 10 random. So that's 30 ish bikes at the end of the race.

I can already think of a few ways to game the system. This isn't like drug testing because while the rider remains constant throughout the race, equipment can be and is switched out.

For example, you could start the race with a fully checked bike. Ten kilometers in, you get a "flat" or a "brake problem" and get a replacement bike. Vroome, Vroome! Enjoy your race and at an advantageous moment, suffer another "mechanical" and ride home on a clean bike.

The only way to prevent that kind of cheating is to test 100% of all bikes and spares prior to the race and tag them, followed by storing them in a staging area to prevent tampering. Those would be the only bikes allowed on the road and in team cars. Any other problem would get handled by neutral service.

And thermal cameras are a distraction at best because the necessary protocols are prohibitive. For example, what if a thermal camera operator sees a glowing bottom bracket? Does he stop the rider in question - ruining their race - and seize the bike for testing? Does the operator instead note down the rider number for testing at the finish? If so, what do you do if the rider says "Nope. That's not me on the thermal camera. Prove it is"? What if they withdraw from the race after being obviously scanned with the thermal camera? What if they have a "mechanical" and switch bikes? And who sets the threshold temperature difference that triggers a "positive"?

Add onto that sorry pile the iPads. There's simply no reason to use them. Even if they worked 100%, I can guarantee that everyone would have switched to reluctance motors. There's ZERO magnetic field until it's running.

John Swanson

As I suggested, if there is a bike change, those bikes get tested as well.

 

[thehog]

Video here of the new system. The process is for the rider to be tagged on frame not wheels, then has 30 mins to bring tagged bike to control for testing. Wheel motors can easily escape this method.

http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/the-uci-presents-robust-action-plan-combat-technological-fraud/

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Video here of the new system. The process is for the rider to be tagged on frame not wheels, then has 30 mins to bring tagged bike to control for testing. Wheel motors can easily escape this method.

http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/the-uci-presents-robust-action-plan-combat-technological-fraud/

Nope. Because the bulk of the system (battery, control electronics, motor controller) would be in the frame. Only the motor would be in the hub, with contacts at the dropouts.

John Swanson

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

As I suggested, if there is a bike change, those bikes get tested as well.

How would you sequester a bike that had been changed out in that scenario. Bike comes out of car. Bike goes back into car. End of race... Here's a random bike off the roof rack. Go nuts and test it!

John Swanson

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

As I suggested, if there is a bike change, those bikes get tested as well.

How would you sequester a bike that had been changed out in that scenario. Bike comes out of car. Bike goes back into car. End of race... Here's a random bike off the roof rack. Go nuts and test it!

John Swanson

There is always a moto around. Band the bikes that get swapped. The UCI is pretty crappy, and might not really want to catch a magic motor, but that's no reason to stop thinking.

 

[thehog]

Video here of the new system. The process is for the rider to be tagged on frame not wheels, then has 30 mins to bring tagged bike to control for testing. Wheel motors can easily escape this method.

http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/the-uci-presents-robust-action-plan-combat-technological-fraud/

Nope. Because the bulk of the system (battery, control electronics, motor controller) would be in the frame. Only the motor would be in the hub, with contacts at the dropouts.

John Swanson

The tagging system appears to be the issue. The race wheel:s should remain on the bike, perhaps an invisible ink signature as a tag for wheel sets?

 

[Parker]

It's a classic politician's move. Make a big deal of something that probably isn't a problem. Spend money on a showy solution (preferably contracts are given to friends and donors). Claim success for solving a problem without changing anything.

 

[thehog]

Re:

It's a classic politician's move. Make a big deal of something that probably isn't a problem. Spend money on a showy solution (preferably contracts are given to friends and donors). Claim success for solving a problem without changing anything.

You really shouldn’t be so hard on Cookson

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

The only way to prevent that kind of cheating is to test 100% of all bikes and spares prior to the race and tag them, followed by storing them in a staging area to prevent tampering. Those would be the only bikes allowed on the road and in team cars. Any other problem would get handled by neutral service.

I think the idea of tagging is good, you could certainly tag all the bikes and test a random subset of them, plus all the bikes from the top 10 riders (as suggested above) and all the jersey wearers. Nothing is going to be perfect, but there's no need to test 100% of bikes. If they're all tagged and inspected for tags atop the team cars you're really going to eliminate 99% of the potential issue.

Simple logic says they will only have time to x-ray the top finishers and a random selection the same as UCI currently do for bike inspections. Generally there's around 400 bikes in a Grand Tour and over 3000 wheels spread across riders bikes, team cars and trucks so not possible to scan them in the time between finish and next morning's start. The tablet is probably the most efficient way to scan lots of bikes without having to chaperone each bike back and forth anywhere at start line. Obviously it will only detect motors in a frame and wheels that use permanent magnets not coils in the rim, but then if you win the race, your bike will be x-rayed at finish line, same as you will give samples to anti-doping if you win.
Top 10 finishers and maybe 10 random bikes and wheels around finish line could be x-rayed within a couple of hours window before teams need to head off to the next start town I would think.

 

[SHAD0W93]

What are the odds that they could make a bigger version of what the airports and court houses do to examine things into a 18 wheeler that:
1. You can drive between stages.
2. Drive the team cars through with the bikes on it.
3. Big enough for someone to walk the bikes through that fits enough people while the riders are signing in before the stage?

Than before each stage you have everything scanned and ready to go with no worries.

 

[thehog]

Re:

What are the odds that they could make a bigger version of what the airports and court houses do to examine things into a 18 wheeler that:
1. You can drive between stages.
2. Drive the team cars through with the bikes on it.
3. Big enough for someone to walk the bikes through that fits enough people while the riders are signing in before the stage?

Than before each stage you have everything scanned and ready to go with no worries.

So the plan is to use RFID to electronically “tag” bikes and wheels before the race - ie no physical tag. The Top 3, yellow jersey and a random selection will be tested by the Lappy’s new wonder x-ray machine. Due to the electronic tag if a different bike or wheels is brought to the machine, the UCI will know.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

What are the odds that they could make a bigger version of what the airports and court houses do to examine things into a 18 wheeler that:
1. You can drive between stages.
2. Drive the team cars through with the bikes on it.
3. Big enough for someone to walk the bikes through that fits enough people while the riders are signing in before the stage?

Than before each stage you have everything scanned and ready to go with no worries.

I'd love to see that. "Sorry Mr Lefevere, the beep's gone off, you'll just have to back up and leave your keys in that little tray at the start and then drive through again. What do you mean you can't drive through if you leave your car keys in that little tray at the start there? Oh ***. Simon! Simon! I think we've got a bit of a problem here."

 

[King Boonen]

Funny image, but I think they mean the baggage x-ray scanner. The idea is still crazy though.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Funny image, but I think they mean the baggage x-ray scanner. The idea is still crazy though.

That's even funnier: "Yes Mr Lefevere, we do want you to drive your car through this x-ray scanner, which will scan you with x-rays. Of course it's safe Mr Lefevere! Oh don't be talking about Marie Curie, that was such a long time ago. Can it cause your genes to mutate and turn you into a superhero? Why, have you got that donkey Petr Vakoč in the boot and you're hoping to turn him into a champion? Ha ha ha, only joking Mr Lefevere, only joking, I'm sure you're paying him exactly what he's worth. Will your using leaded petrol and having your car painted with lead-laced paint and your battery being made of lead be a problem? Hang on one moment Mr Lefevere. Simon! Simon! I think we've got a bit of a problem here!"

 

[King Boonen]

Röntgen disapproves of your false attribution of his work!

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Röntgen disapproves of your false attribution of his work!

:razz: But Marie Curie has better name recognition than Röntgen, even among science nerds ...

 

[King Boonen]

The worst thing is I only know the name as I was looking for the shortest discovery to prize time frame I could find. Turns out that earlier prizes had a quicker turn around but I think the fastest was the Physics prize in 1957 won by Lee and Yang. Lee has a few other records for youngest post-war science prize, youngest American (naturalised after winning) and first Chinese (along with Yang). Complete science nerd.

This is about as off-topic as a mod should be going I think!

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

The worst thing is I only know the name as I was looking for the shortest discovery to prize time frame I could find. Turns out that earlier prizes had a quicker turn around but I think the fastest was the Physics prize in 1957 won by Lee and Yang. Lee has a few other records for youngest post-war science prize, youngest American (naturalised after winning) and first Chinese (along with Yang). Complete science nerd.

This is about as off-topic as a mod should be going I think!

I will admit that I couldn't remember what it was killed Curie and Googled and saw Röntgen's name but went with Curie as she was more famous. And I think I may actually have been thinking of the English DNA scientist, Rosalind Franklin, when I thought x-ray poisoning killed Curie.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Sort of shifting this back on topic KB: in your capacity of science nerd, how many coats of lead paint would it take to block an x-ray? Will we be able to spot motor-doping by who has the coolest paint-job?

 

[Catwhoorg]

Depends on intensity and wavelength.

In diagnostic settings 1.3 mm is specified, for shielding for staff.

The aprons you get to wear are about 0.25 to 0.35 mm equivalent. Heavy enough to be an issue, but probably not insurmountable (given some bikes have weights already to meet minimum race weight)

But of course having a dense patch (from lead) just where a motor would be, would just be inviting a manual inspection.*



*If they wanted to actually find anything

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yea like the baggage claim xrays. I guess the idea sounds better in my head.