Motor doping thread

[zlev11]

I rebrowsed some of the thread to make sure I was superficially up to date.

The question I would have :
There's been at least a couple of amateurs (or semi pro ?), one male and one female from my recollection, that have been busted for rigging their bike with a motor.
Do we have more documents of what it looked like and / or tests to assess how effective (if any) those garage jobs were ?

If it's already been addressed, I'd be glad to follow a link to relevant posts.

Lemond was on a podcast recently and said he believes many wins in the early-mid 2010's were achieved with motors. he said didn't want to get into "specifics" but he said former riders personally told him that they knew of riders on their own teams using motors and then he actually specifically mentioned Froome on the Ventoux as one performance that stands out to him as being suspicious for a motor.

 

[Cookster15]

Lemond was on a podcast recently and said he believes many wins in the early-mid 2010's were achieved with motors. he said didn't want to get into "specifics" but he said former riders personally told him that they knew of riders on their own teams using motors and then he actually specifically mentioned Froome on the Ventoux as one performance that stands out to him as being suspicious for a motor.

Maybe. But I just rewatched that climb in 2013. Impossible to prove or disprove he used a motor. Here it is:

froome ventoux 2013 - Google Suche

 

[zlev11]

Maybe. But I just rewatched that climb in 2013. Impossible to prove or disprove he used a motor. Here it is:

froome ventoux 2013 - Google Suche

of course it's not possible to prove but that initial acceleration away from Contador is absolutely surreal. Froome almost looks like he's in a panic about what his bicycle is doing.

 

[samhocking]

Lemond was on a podcast recently and said he believes many wins in the early-mid 2010's were achieved with motors. he said didn't want to get into "specifics" but he said former riders personally told him that they knew of riders on their own teams using motors and then he actually specifically mentioned Froome on the Ventoux as one performance that stands out to him as being suspicious for a motor.

LeMond was mixing with the same loons who thought Roglics hub was glowing when clearly they just didn't understand calibration of the Flir device . He got caught up in French journalists obsession everyone else is cheating and then Varjas cam along and sold everyone a tale they wanted to hear and the main French & Italian journalists got a story from Varjas they wanted to hear and made documentaries about him. French court then concluded Varjas had a penchant for telling tall tales!

 

[zlev11]

LeMond was mixing with the same loons who thought Roglics hub was glowing when clearly they just didn't understand calibration of the Flir device . He got caught up in French journalists obsession everyone else is cheating and then Varjas cam along and sold everyone a tale they wanted to hear and the main French & Italian journlists got a story from Varjas they wanted to hear. French court then concluded Varjas had a penchant for telling tall tales.

sure whatever helps you sleep at night

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

Not to discard wholesale peloton gossip because we do have to rely on it in many cases but it can be shaky evidence, if that's all LeMond can point go.

I think the theory (I read a few times here) that the alleged motor doping was more prevalent in elite circa around 2010 then scaled back is interesting... I think it solves some obvious questions but has some flaws of his own.

I'm still stuck on the technical feasibility of the whole idea to begin with. Someone made the very salient point that for all the claims you never see a full demo of the bike in situ, just close ups on the wheel spinning... Like so many blurry pictures of flying saucers.

Surely it should be possible to approximate a prototype on a pro frame, doubly so if it's a 15 years old tech.

 

[iBanesto]

Lemond was on a podcast recently and said he believes many wins in the early-mid 2010's were achieved with motors. he said didn't want to get into "specifics" but he said former riders personally told him that they knew of riders on their own teams using motors and then he actually specifically mentioned Froome on the Ventoux as one performance that stands out to him as being suspicious for a motor.

 

[veganrob]

of course it's not possible to prove but that initial acceleration away from Contador is absolutely surreal. Froome almost looks like he's in a panic about what his bicycle is doing.

Not only that, but data was released of Froome's HR at the time. His HR does not go up at all. Dave Brailsford did not deny it just complained about the leak of information.

 

[samhocking]

Not to discard wholesale peloton gossip because we do have to rely on it in many cases but it can be shaky evidence, if that's all LeMond can point go.

I think the theory (I read a few times here) that the alleged motor doping was more prevalent in elite circa around 2010 then scaled back is interesting... I think it solves some obvious questions but has some flaws of his own.

I'm still stuck on the technical feasibility of the whole idea to begin with. Someone made the very salient point that for all the claims you never see a full demo of the bike in situ, just close ups on the wheel spinning... Like so many blurry pictures of flying saucers.

Surely it should be possible to approximate a prototype on a pro frame, doubly so if it's a 15 years old tech.

The French Police investigation concluded Varjas made his claims up because he liked to tell stories. They even stated he had limited engineering knowledge. As you can see in the US 60mins and the French/Italian Investigation, everything Varjas shows is either too blurry video to even see what it is, off the shelf Vivax assist components and for the French/Italian investigation only ever shown covered in bubble wrap. The one wheel he does show spinning has an e-hub the size of a small watermelon so hardly invisible,

 

[samhocking]

Not only that, but data was released of Froome's HR at the time. His HR does not go up at all. Dave Brailsford did not deny it just complained about the leak of information.

That leak was through FestinaBoy, I wouldn't believe a word that guy says, time and time again it's proven he falsifies video and power data anyway.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

The French Police investigation concluded Varjas made his claims up because he liked to tell stories. They even stated he had limited engineering knowledge. As you can see in the US 60mins and the French/Italian Investigation, everything Varjas shows is either too blurry video to even see what it is, off the shelf Vivax assist components and for the French/Italian investigation only ever shown covered in bubble wrap. The one wheel he does show spinning has an e-hub the size of a small watermelon so hardly invisible,

I was thinking more of other videos (there's been some in that thread) from amateurs retroengineering it IIRC. I'm sure there's plenty of amateur and pro bike mechanics that would tinker with it out of curiosity (and electrical bikes are now common enough, I'd think).

 

[veganrob]

That leak was through FestinaBoy, I wouldn't believe a word that guy says, time and time again it's proven he falsifies video and power data anyway.

Again, Brailsford didn't deny the facts of the data. Only the leak. And who can forget the highly anticipated tests by Jeroen Swart to prove Froome is cleans. LMAO. No drug tests prior. The HR monitor happened to not record. How convenient.

 

[zlev11]

The French Police investigation concluded Varjas made his claims up because he liked to tell stories. They even stated he had limited engineering knowledge. As you can see in the US 60mins and the French/Italian Investigation, everything Varjas shows is either too blurry video to even see what it is, off the shelf Vivax assist components and for the French/Italian investigation only ever shown covered in bubble wrap. The one wheel he does show spinning has an e-hub the size of a small watermelon so hardly invisible,

was the part where Tyler Hamilton rode a Varjas motor up some climbs blurry too?

 

[Riek s]

was the part where Tyler Hamilton rode a Varjas motor up some climbs blurry too?

I don't find anything back of Tyler Hamilton riding a Varhas motor. Is that from his book?

edit: found back he tried it out later for the broadcast. 'It would have made a difference". battery was around 20minutes

Did find :

Motorized doping in the pro peloton: 60 Minutes explores

Motorized doping has occurred at the Tour de France, the inventor claims

www.bikeradar.com

Varjas and others have developed wheel-based, electromagnetic motor systems. These systems are the next frontier in motorized doping.
According to Varjas, the weight penalty for this motor is approximately 800g.

“Weigh the wheels. You’ll find the wheels. The wheels are in the peloton,”Varjas stated.

60 Minutes states that French authorities informed its investigators that weight checks performed before a time trial (team or individual TT was not specified) at the 2015 Tour de France revealed that Team Sky’s bikes exceeded others by approximately 800g.

But hat is true we don't know since nobody has picked up or made charges related to this.

 

[hrotha]

I thought by 2023 everyone would agree that Varjas was a hack

 

[hender-retour]

I thought by 2023 everyone would agree that Varjas was a hack

Sure Varjas is the S. Greer of Cycling. Yet with all my years following cycling I've never seen acceleration performed like Froome. Maybe his style was just like that. But when You compare to the older footage of Cancellara it rings a bell.

I am hesitant to make conclusions solely judging the source. Still I can't wrap my head around the momentous risk that need be taken from the team and sponsors. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

was the part where Tyler Hamilton rode a Varjas motor up some climbs blurry too?

From the transcript (which I assume is what Riek s already mentioned), I'm unclear there's footage of Hamilton riding that US Postal carbon frame, is it the case ? He's giving some feedback on it.
Still, interesting Hamilton and CBS reporters had access to one such model for testing.

 

[Scarponi]

How come with a motor they weren’t setting all time records in the 2010s

 

[Riek s]

How come with a motor they weren’t setting all time records in the 2010s

Because when we talk about a motor, we think about eletric bikes with 250W and a big battery. When we talk about the pro peleton you just need 5-20W sustainable.
Can be used in multiple ways:
- either have a higher performance output near the end using a motor
- have a big acceleration for a brief moment.
- be fresher at the end because you never needed to go into the red zone before.
-...

Who knows if it was used a lot (the reportage talked about 12 riders) or if it was even being used or still being used. It just one possible explanation for some of the things we have seen people do uphill with those stupid accelerations. (and donkey to best in the world kind of change)

I think the argument that it won't be good for the sponsor etc can be thrown in the garbage can if you see that festina made more profit after the bust. Followed by riders keep on using forbidden products over the years since then. The bust didn't even slow doping down for a single year. (It just made it more professional).

 

[ontheroad]

How come with a motor they weren’t setting all time records in the 2010s

No point going full mutant with a motor, you just need to win by slightly more than the opposition.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I don't know a form of cheating used with full moderation and control sounds more plausible in a vacuum.

 

[Riek s]

I don't know a form of cheating used with full moderation and control sounds more plausible in a vacuum.

Agree. The only moderation we had was that the riders didn't go full gas on all the climbs. (unlike last and this tour).

If history is a sign, moderation isn't a word they know. Riis took so much epo to be the best they needed to wake him up at night.
Not sure what they are doing now, but they don't seem to mind breaking full epo records, doing strange accelerations while breaking in the corners when going uphil, multiple sprints on the same climb, going full gas every day with barely breaking a sweat, pushing your best numbers in the 3rd week.

 

[red_flanders]

Lemond was on a podcast recently and said he believes many wins in the early-mid 2010's were achieved with motors. he said didn't want to get into "specifics" but he said former riders personally told him that they knew of riders on their own teams using motors and then he actually specifically mentioned Froome on the Ventoux as one performance that stands out to him as being suspicious for a motor.

Nice to see someone like that coming out and stating the obvious.

 

[pastronef]

Lemond was on a podcast recently and said he believes many wins in the early-mid 2010's were achieved with motors. he said didn't want to get into "specifics" but he said former riders personally told him that they knew of riders on their own teams using motors and then he actually specifically mentioned Froome on the Ventoux as one performance that stands out to him as being suspicious for a motor.

2 words: Floyd Landis. alcoholic, on the verge of suicide, living in a cabin alone, desperate. why wouldn't he throw the motor bomb to Postal/Lance? he could have had the opportunity to bring it all down, he had nothing to lose, he was mad as fukk and wanted revenge. and yet nothing. we just have Varjas wild claims and the bitter loon Vayer talking out of his @ass as susual. ffs

 

[Rico044]

2 words: Floyd Landis. alcoholic, on the verge of suicide, living in a cabin alone, desperate. why wouldn't he throw the motor bomb to Postal/Lance? he could have had the opportunity to bring it all down, he had nothing to lose, he was mad as fukk and wanted revenge. and yet nothing. we just have Varjas wild claims and the bitter loon Vayer talking out of his @ass as susual. ffs

I'm not sure about the whole motor thing, but I could see it being true and Floyd not having first hand knowledge. Hamilton talks a lot in his book about there being an additional circle with Lance, Johan, and Ferarri that no one else was a part of. Basically Tyler was insinuating that Lance had a secrete weapon aside from the things everyone else did (test, epo, and BBs). Who knows what this weapon was. Maybe it was an additional BB. Maybe it was synthetic hemoglobin. Maybe it was a motor. Lance himself would say that he was doing exactly what the other guys were doing and he was just better. Point is, I can see motors (if they exist) being another level of secrecy. Floyd spilled the beans on what he knew, but I think its possible he wouldn't have known. However, to your point, Floyd did win the tour in 2006 and if motors were widespread one would imagine that Floyd would have needed to use one. And I don't think Floyd was holding back info when he finally confessed.