Motor doping thread

[pastronef]

I'm not sure about the whole motor thing, but I could see it being true and Floyd not having first hand knowledge. Hamilton talks a lot in his book about there being an additional circle with Lance, Johan, and Ferarri that no one else was a part of. Basically Tyler was insinuating that Lance had a secrete weapon aside from the things everyone else did (test, epo, and BBs). Who knows what this weapon was. Maybe it was an additional BB. Maybe it was synthetic hemoglobin. Maybe it was a motor. Lance himself would say that he was doing exactly what the other guys were doing and he was just better. Point is, I can see motors (if they exist) being another level of secrecy. Floyd spilled the beans on what he knew, but I think its possible he wouldn't have known. However, to your point, Floyd did win the tour in 2006 and if motors were widespread one would imagine that Floyd would have needed to use one. And I don't think Floyd was holding back info when he finally confessed.

yep

 

[zlev11]

2 words: Floyd Landis. alcoholic, on the verge of suicide, living in a cabin alone, desperate. why wouldn't he throw the motor bomb to Postal/Lance? he could have had the opportunity to bring it all down, he had nothing to lose, he was mad as fukk and wanted revenge. and yet nothing. we just have Varjas wild claims and the bitter loon Vayer talking out of his @ass as susual. ffs

well first of all, he didn't race in the 2010's. second, if Lance had a motor there's no way anyone else on the team would know about it aside from Bruyneel and the mechanic working on his bike.

as for Floyd, he still wont admit to using the testosterone he tested positive for. maybe he had a motor in 2006? there was a really strange bike change in the middle of his stage 17 raid. it would disappoint me greatly, but i don't doubt it.

 

[ontheroad]

2 words: Floyd Landis. alcoholic, on the verge of suicide, living in a cabin alone, desperate. why wouldn't he throw the motor bomb to Postal/Lance? he could have had the opportunity to bring it all down, he had nothing to lose, he was mad as fukk and wanted revenge. and yet nothing. we just have Varjas wild claims and the bitter loon Vayer talking out of his @ass as susual. ffs

i think Lemond is referring to the mid 2010s and the 60 minutes report that claimed that some riders had hidden motors in their bikes at the 2015 Tour. Verdy stated that riders and managers had told him of around 12 riders using motors at that years Tour so it was being discussed within the peloton.

I'm not saying that he doesn't believe Lance used a motor but if you listen to the interview I think the information he has received is during the post Lance years. He mentions Cancellara and Froome specifically.

 

[zlev11]

Verdy stated that riders and managers had told him of around 12 riders using motors at that years Tour so it was being discussed within the peloton.

yes, lots of smoke around 2015. there were a lot of weird (bad) performances on the first mountain stage, as if they knew their bikes were going to be checked.

if that's true, motors didn't just all of a sudden pop up at the 2015 Tour de France, it would had to have been going on for years at that point. it sounds like it turned into an arms race.

 

[red_flanders]

LeMond was mixing with the same loons who thought Roglics hub was glowing when clearly they just didn't understand calibration of the Flir device . He got caught up in French journalists obsession everyone else is cheating and then Varjas cam along and sold everyone a tale they wanted to hear and the main French & Italian journalists got a story from Varjas they wanted to hear and made documentaries about him. French court then concluded Varjas had a penchant for telling tall tales!

All that may or may not be true. Irrelevant.

Anyone with a functioning brain could tell that Froome's acceleration on Ventoux that day was crazy, and a motor explains exactly what one sees. About that, he's simply stating the obvious.

 

[samhocking]

All that may or may not be true. Irrelevant.

Anyone with a functioning brain could tell that Froome's acceleration on Ventoux that day was crazy, and a motor explains exactly what one sees. About that, he's simply stating the obvious.

TV isn't factual, things can look odd all the time (most of the motor claims come from TV, not any evidence), neither you nor I will know if Froome used a motor any more than we do Cancellera, Hesjedel or Roglic by watching TV. What is common to all riders however is they were at the very top of their game and then the very same French & Italian journalists and FestinaBoy come out with the motor doping claims and Varjas & LeMond pops up again. One would expect at least some hard evidence. Maybe a crashed bike split in half or a collapsed wheel, a malfunctioning bike or even riders hearing them (these are not silent motors as all the documentary filming of them prove).

 

[red_flanders]

TV isn't factual, things can look odd all the time (most of the motor claims come from TV, not any evidence), neither you nor I will know if Froome used a motor any more than we do Cancellera, Hesjedel or Roglic by watching TV. What is common to all riders however is they were at the very top of their game and then the very same French & Italian journalists and FestinaBoy come out with the motor doping claims and Varjas & LeMond pops up again. One would expect at least some hard evidence. Maybe a crashed bike split in half or a collapsed wheel, a malfunctioning bike or even riders hearing them (these are not silent motors as all the documentary filming of them prove).

"TV isn't factual." I mean I get what you're saying but that's sure an odd way to put it. Video recordings are amongst the most detailed representations of an event possible, literally full of facts.

Do I "know" Froome and Cancellara used motors? Meaning can I prove it? I cannot. However, I've seen enough footage and ridden enough e-bikes to know what I was seeing. I'm satisfied that they used motors in a couple specific instances where it's blindingly obvious enough that no other reasonable explanation has been put forward–or is possible. And if the power data in the Froome/Ventoux video is accurate, that's as much evidence as I'd need. If valid data, that's proof. You don't go faster and increase RPM's to a laughable degree and not increase power. Just not possible and a motor explains it perfectly. Don't know if that data is accurate. But again, even without the data, the video alone literally made me LOL at the time of the event. You don't want to believe it? Fine.

We have hard evidence. Cyclists have been caught with motors cheating. It's a thing.

Lobbing out names of people you think have been discredited is not evidence against the proposition that motors have been used in the pro peloton.

 

[Red Rick]

If motors are used, why aren't they used by everyone?

 

[red_flanders]

If motors are used, why aren't they used by everyone?

Do you think they're still being used? I don't see it. The riding doesn't look like it did back when it seemed obvious. Certainly there are faster ascents overall, but it doesn't have that ridiculous acceleration look about it. Also sounds like the checks are fairly thorough at this point.

To answer your question, I would assume some people just didn't/don't want to be that lame. Or get caught being that lame.

 

[Riek s]

If motors are used, why aren't they used by everyone?

Because of the grid stability?

No idea. But we saw similar things with other forms of doping. Not everyone wanted to do was Riis did for example.

Maybe not every team has protected status?
Because lets face it, if they really want to... checking for motors should be piece of cake. You know every bike, check every bike. Bikes are kept/collected after the race and checked. (and not some randomized test with an iPad). If I remember they lost Cancellera bike of one of those days? (or was that later resolved)

 

[Red Rick]

Do you think they're still being used? I don't see it. The riding doesn't look like it did back when it seemed obvious. Certainly there are faster ascents overall, but it doesn't have that ridiculous acceleration look about it. Also sounds like the checks are fairly thorough at this point.

To answer your question, I would assume some people just didn't/don't want to be that lame. Or get caught being that lame.

If you use them, you go all the way I think. I don't see why you wouldn't.

I also don't find accuasations based on just visuals very convincing. Cancellara's Muur time wasn't crazy, Boonen just collapsed. To my knowledge the Froome Ventoux thing was because he hit a flat just as he attacked, etc.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Do you think they're still being used? I don't see it. The riding doesn't look like it did back when it seemed obvious. Certainly there are faster ascents overall, but it doesn't have that ridiculous acceleration look about it. Also sounds like the checks are fairly thorough at this point.

To answer your question, I would assume some people just didn't/don't want to be that lame. Or get caught being that lame.

Only time it’s looked like motor use recently is Vinge’s TT and that is just because how his riding style was. Maybe they were able to do the motor with the weight saved from no paint or poop.

 

[topt]

1.21.10, what do you guys think he is doing here ?

 

[benzwire]

1.21.10, what do you guys think he is doing here ?

Lance reaching back with his left hand? He did that a lot, almost like a tick. He's pulling on his shorts or adjusting them. I remember seeing this and I think he even mentioned doing it out of habit. That's all I'm seeing there.

 

[samhocking]

He often pulled the rear of his shorts like that, he's discussed it on his pod. It's a bit like that nervous thing Pogacar does where he always puts his thumb over one nostril without blowing for no real reason, it's just comfort habits, quite common in racing at all levels.

 

[Ripper]

Lance reaching back with his left hand? He did that a lot, almost like a tick. He's pulling on his shorts or adjusting them. I remember seeing this and I think he even mentioned doing it out of habit. That's all I'm seeing there.

Well, that and an uber doped up performance!! But yes, he had a number of habits, as many riders do. Unless the poster was referring to the slight change in cadence, which doesn't seem to be a big deal

 

[topt]

Lance reaching back with his left hand? He did that a lot, almost like a tick. He's pulling on his shorts or adjusting them. I remember seeing this and I think he even mentioned doing it out of habit. That's all I'm seeing there.

hm, I am quite sure he put his hand under tha saddle

 

[samhocking]

"TV isn't factual." I mean I get what you're saying but that's sure an odd way to put it. Video recordings are amongst the most detailed representations of an event possible, literally full of facts.

Do I "know" Froome and Cancellara used motors? Meaning can I prove it? I cannot. However, I've seen enough footage and ridden enough e-bikes to know what I was seeing. I'm satisfied that they used motors in a couple specific instances where it's blindingly obvious enough that no other reasonable explanation has been put forward–or is possible. And if the power data in the Froome/Ventoux video is accurate, that's as much evidence as I'd need. If valid data, that's proof. You don't go faster and increase RPM's to a laughable degree and not increase power. Just not possible and a motor explains it perfectly. Don't know if that data is accurate. But again, even without the data, the video alone literally made me LOL at the time of the event. You don't want to believe it? Fine.

We have hard evidence. Cyclists have been caught with motors cheating. It's a thing.

Lobbing out names of people you think have been discredited is not evidence against the proposition that motors have been used in the pro peloton.

So who else other than Froome & Cancellera (both who's allegations of motor use were widely shared on social media / tv / documentary) looked like they were using a motor too to support Verdy's claims 12 riders used them in 2015 Tour? If we take the top 10 in GC that's Froome, Quintana, Valverde, Nibali, Contador & Gesink, Mollema, Frank, Bardet, Rolland. Top stage winner was Griepel, Green Jersey was Sagan. Or are we saying because TV is good evidence, but we only see two out of 12 riders using them, it's not easy to spot a motor on TV?

 

[SHAD0W93]

So who else other than Froome & Cancellera (both who's allegations of motor use were widely shared on social media / tv / documentary) looked like they were using a motor too to support Verdy's claims 12 riders used them in 2015 Tour? If we take the top 10 in GC that's Froome, Quintana, Valverde, Nibali, Contador & Gesink, Mollema, Frank, Bardet, Rolland. Top stage winner was Griepel, Green Jersey was Sagan. Or are we saying because TV is good evidence, but we only see two out of 12 riders using them, it's not easy to spot a motor on TV?

Set yourself up for this one;

Froome, Froome’s TT bike, Froome’s backup road bike, Kennaugh, Poels, Porte, Rowe, Stannard, Thomas, Roche, Konig, and Cancellara

 

[red_flanders]

So who else other than Froome & Cancellera (both who's allegations of motor use were widely shared on social media / tv / documentary) looked like they were using a motor too to support Verdy's claims 12 riders used them in 2015 Tour? If we take the top 10 in GC that's Froome, Quintana, Valverde, Nibali, Contador & Gesink, Mollema, Frank, Bardet, Rolland. Top stage winner was Griepel, Green Jersey was Sagan. Or are we saying because TV is good evidence, but we only see two out of 12 riders using them, it's not easy to spot a motor on TV?

I pointed out two of the most obvious offenses. The other one that leaps out is Poels. I’m not saying, obviously, that you can tell every motor doping offense by watching the video. I’m saying some are so obvious it’s laughable.

 

[samhocking]

I pointed out two of the most obvious offenses. The other one that leaps out is Poels. I’m not saying, obviously, that you can tell every motor doping offense by watching the video. I’m saying some are so obvious it’s laughable.

Sure, but given only 2 out of 12 alleged to be used in that Tour you and French media seems be able to detect on TV, I'd argue it's simply confirmation bias and desire for it to be true more than what you can actually determine watching TV in the first place. French media, Verde, Varjas, FestinaBoy etc - it was all determined to have been fabricated when investigated by French Police anyway.

 

[veganrob]

So who else other than Froome & Cancellera (both who's allegations of motor use were widely shared on social media / tv / documentary) looked like they were using a motor too to support Verdy's claims 12 riders used them in 2015 Tour? If we take the top 10 in GC that's Froome, Quintana, Valverde, Nibali, Contador & Gesink, Mollema, Frank, Bardet, Rolland. Top stage winner was Griepel, Green Jersey was Sagan. Or are we saying because TV is good evidence, but we only see two out of 12 riders using them, it's not easy to spot a motor on TV?

And did we see all the footage of all the riders? No. One only needs to use the motors at select moments in a race to make a huge difference.

 

[red_flanders]

Sure, but given only 2 out of 12 alleged to be used in that Tour you and French media seems be able to detect on TV, I'd argue it's simply confirmation bias and desire for it to be true more than what you can actually determine watching TV in the first place. French media, Verde, Varjas, FestinaBoy etc - it was all determined to have been fabricated when investigated by French Police anyway.

So your argument is that you’re a mind reader who knows my desires, as well as my motivations for confirmation bias, and that by stating the words, “French media“ and “FestinaBoy”, whoever that is, this adds weight to your argument.

Compelling.

I don’t know or care who is alleging what. I watch bike racing. What all this blather has to do with my view on a couple of impossible accelerations…well…is zero.

 

[benzwire]

IF the use of a motor has occurred in the pro ranks, do you think it would only be known by the rider and maybe 1 or 2 other people in the team (mechanic, etc.)? Any chance it would be a team-wide thing?
I can understand blood doping and the general acceptance / omerta among riders. They would likely feel like everyone is doing something, or has to do something to compete, and it's somewhat a level playing field (albeit a tainted one). But "motor doping" is a whole other level. It's straight up cheating. I can't believe any athlete (not using a motor) would let this slide if a competitor was known to use a motor. It would have to be an individual, or very few people involved.
I cannot understand the level of sociopath(?) one would have to be to be satisfied or happy winning a race this way. Maybe the glory and money are enough, but that's crazy. At least with blood doping it's your own legs powering the bike.

 

[samhocking]

So your argument is that you’re a mind reader who knows my desires, as well as my motivations for confirmation bias, and that by stating the words, “French media“ and “FestinaBoy”, whoever that is, this adds weight to your argument.

Compelling.

I don’t know or care who is alleging what. I watch bike racing. What all this blather has to do with my view on a couple of impossible accelerations…well…is zero.

The point is, the only riders you name as using motors by watching TV just happens to be the same riders said to be using them by the French media. Just seems if there really were 12 motors in that Tour and e.g. Froome's use of one is so obvious on TV, why wen't the others so obvious? When investigated, the motor claims didn't exist, Varjas fabricated the story Verde claimed to French media as concluded by the French Police investigating him. Their conclusion was Varjas had limited engineering knowledge about motors and a penchant/delusion to fabricate stories about them. So, most-likely what you see with Froome on TV isn't a motor or at least isn't the motor the French media, journalists and Varjas and Verde claimed it was,